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LionKIng

Obtaining Hidden Abilities

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LionKIng   

Ok so its been a long time since I havent posted anything on these forums, just because I felt like everything was running smoothly. But now ive just learned on how devs are planning on planting hidden abilities. 

 

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I dont know about you but for me having to rebreed over 50 comps just because of new hidden ability that otherwise makes them uncompetitive is just a slap in the face for me. I mean, ok if nobody has multiscale dragonite , dragonite is still competitive since no one else has the 20x better ability, but once you implement the hidden ability the normal dragonites without it just becomes useless and not usable at all. I mean ok the game is grindy but this just becomes fucking insanity, having to rebreed stuff you already bred just for 1 ability.....like WTF. And this is for so many pokemons not just dragonite, only one of many that comes to mind. Not only does it take so much time but it will be super expensive to do. You grind already for everything you have to turn them into useless pokemons just because they decide to implement an other grindy way to do stuff. 

 

So here comes the suggestion, instead of having to catch hidden ability pokemons in the dungeons to then breed up to comps, id suggest as a possible dungeon reward a hidden ability discover pill, its just like the ability pill but it lets you put the hidden ability of your pokemon. This will still require grind but at least its something new than just rebreeding the same pokemon but with an hidden ability.......It wont ruin already made pokemons and it will be overall cheaper than just rebreeding everything that requires an hidden ability.

 

I just really hate the idea of wasted time, why should my dragonite made 1 year ago be obsolete just because of this silly way of implementing something that just doesnt make any sens on a players point of view. Why should my resources used 1 year ago be dropped in the garbage? Because thats what you are saying implementing the catch and breed hidden ability pokes....

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Risadex   

I was about give a similar idea, but I think yours is better/more reliable.

 

Dont need to give it easy (neither too hard as lucky eggs)

 

just give us a chance to obtain this item instead of rebreeding tons of comps.

 

Also, u could get a "fragment" each time we finish the dungeon, and make those itens craftable(untradeable) which fragments amount required which base on dungeon's difficulty

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hmm its almost like the game moving on from the older gens makes things from that gen obsolete.

I do get your pain, i really do,  but i doubt the devs are gonna add a HA pill when they have stated that they werent multiple times.

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LionKIng   
13 minutes ago, superpichu999 said:

hmm its almost like the game moving on from the older gens makes things from that gen obsolete.

I do get your pain, i really do,  but i doubt the devs are gonna add a HA pill when they have stated that they werent multiple times.

I dont get why not? if its a better way for everyone why would they go out of their way to make our lives miserable? OFC if nobody says anything about how they feel then they will never know and it will never change. Im just hoping this thread will help forward things in the right place.

 

And I didnt say just implement an hidden ability pill, its still gonna be a grind but at least its gonna be something else than just rebreeding perfectly capable comps. Thats just a waste of money and time. 

Edited by LionKIng

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I'll try and give a more in-depth explanation as to why we're handling Hidden abilities this way:

  • By implementing Hidden Abilities this way, it allows us to release them at our own pace, rather than all at once.
  • There are some Hidden Abilities we do not want to release at all, due to them being 'too strong', being able to determine which species are available with them allows us to make sure these abilities are never released at all without needing to put a confusing and arbitrary "You can't use this item on this 'mon!" on something like an ability pill.
  • Most importantly, introducing them this way adds value to dungeons as a whole, rather than just the reward/legendary at the end. Now you are encouraged to sink balls on your way to the end, explore the dungeon in full and re-enter even after you've obtained a prize. We've toyed with the idea of limited bag space within dungeons, meaning selecting enough room for balls (and resisting the urge to use them on Hidden Ability 'mon) will play a factor.
  • To add to the above - it encourages exploration of/adds value to different dungeons; rather than just running the one you feel most comfortable with/is easiest. If you want an electric Hidden Ability species you'll need to visit an Electric-type dungeon, if you want fire then you'll need to go into the Fire-type dungeon and so on.

In addition to this, as I've pointed out in quite a few threads already - while it is of course 'more effort' to rebreed, it isn't wasted time, since your current comps will save you a huge amount of time with the re-breeding process.

 

Apologies if you're not happy with these answers.

 

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LionKIng   
1 hour ago, Darkshade said:

I'll try and give a more in-depth explanation as to why we're handling Hidden abilities this way:

  • By implementing Hidden Abilities this way, it allows us to release them at our own pace, rather than all at once.
  • There are some Hidden Abilities we do not want to release at all, due to them being 'too strong', being able to determine which species are available with them allows us to make sure these abilities are never released at all without needing to put a confusing and arbitrary "You can't use this item on this 'mon!" on something like an ability pill.
  • Most importantly, introducing them this way adds value to dungeons as a whole, rather than just the reward/legendary at the end. Now you are encouraged to sink balls on your way to the end, explore the dungeon in full and re-enter even after you've obtained a prize. We've toyed with the idea of limited bag space within dungeons, meaning selecting enough room for balls (and resisting the urge to use them on Hidden Ability 'mon) will play a factor.
  • To add to the above - it encourages exploration of/adds value to different dungeons; rather than just running the one you feel most comfortable with/is easiest. If you want an electric Hidden Ability species you'll need to visit an Electric-type dungeon, if you want fire then you'll need to go into the Fire-type dungeon and so on.

In addition to this, as I've pointed out in quite a few threads already - while it is of course 'more effort' to rebreed, it isn't wasted time, since your current comps will save you a huge amount of time with the re-breeding process.

 

Apologies if you're not happy with these answers.

what about female comps? what about genderles comps?

 

You can just decide just to not implement the hidden ability of a pokemon, like speed boost blaziken. Just like the ability pill it will do nothing when used on a pokemon when theres no other ability to be obtained. This is just stubborness from the developement side, I dont see a downside on a reward at the end of the dungeon vs farming a hidden abillity poke.  Its just frustating to throw pokemons out of the window, these are all wasted time on the players part. I have 9k hours on this game and I think every player with 5k+ hours are tierd of useless grind that we already have done. This is just silly tbh.....

 

And about the exploring dungeons....In the xmas event there was no point in exploring the dungeons and everyone still did, after 2 days everyone knew everything that had to be learned about the dungeon...This is a pvp game not a pve dungeon thingy....if anyone would play this game for the pve aspect of it the game woulda died before its launch. Not to be mean but everyone that sticks are here for the pvp aspect or something similar to it. Nobody cares about your 3rd point about giving value to dungeons. After everyone will have what they want the dungeons will die like every other pve aspect that has nothing to do with pvp like everything that was done before. Once the hype of the dungeons are gone and everyone has what they came there for it will die because you can get  and sell hidden ability pokes on gtl VS having to complete it for X number of hidden ability pills. The hidden ability pills can even become a secondary prize in events. So the later solution will make it so that dungeons will be relevant for far longer since you will need the ability pills to actually perfom in pvp vs getting them on GTL for a discounted prize after a while and just making everyone rebreed their shitt. Its far easier to catch pokes with hidden ability vs having it as a reward. Its just way less annoying to have to rebreed 1/3rd of your comps for no god damn reason thats all.

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1 hour ago, notmudkip0 said:

Stop with this shit pls

I'm afraid you'll need to gitgud without your quick chicken.

We're aiming for balance here.

 

1 hour ago, LionKIng said:

what about female comps? what about genderles comps?

I'm going to assume you mean 'male', since females get it through this method already.

 

For genderless - provided the species with the hidden ability is the same as the child, it will pass.

For passing it via males, we may do the same thing - i.e allowing it to pass provided the child is the same species as that of the Hidden Ability mon, although we have not reached a decision on this one yet.

 

1 hour ago, LionKIng said:

You can just decide just to not implement the hidden ability of a pokemon, like speed boost blaziken. Just like the ability pill it will do nothing when used on a pokemon when theres no other ability to be obtained.

I covered this above, it's an ass way of handling it - but yes, this isn't the primary reason we're not introducing a Hidden Ability pill.

 

1 hour ago, LionKIng said:

This is just stubborness from the developement side, I dont see a downside on a reward at the end of the dungeon vs farming a hidden abillity poke.  Its just frustating to throw pokemons out of the window, these are all wasted time on the players part. I have 9k hours on this game and I think every player with 5k+ hours are tierd of useless grind that we already have done. This is just silly tbh.....

Adding value to dungeons on an individual level and to 'the whole thing' rather than at the end is a huge positive for the gameplay and design of these dungeons in both renewability and reward  - it isn't 'just stubborness'.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Darkshade said:

I'm afraid you'll need to gitgud without your quick chicken.

"Let's not implement these abilities because we hate banning things and just tell anyone that disagrees to git gud"

Absolutely brilliant. 

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Just now, notmudkip0 said:

"Let's not implement these abilities because we hate banning things and just tell anyone that disagrees to git gud"

Absolutely brilliant. 

Thanks, I thought of it myself.

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Toupi   
1 hour ago, Darkshade said:

I'll try and give a more in-depth explanation as to why we're handling Hidden abilities this way:

  • By implementing Hidden Abilities this way, it allows us to release them at our own pace, rather than all at once.
  • There are some Hidden Abilities we do not want to release at all, due to them being 'too strong', being able to determine which species are available with them allows us to make sure these abilities are never released at all without needing to put a confusing and arbitrary "You can't use this item on this 'mon!" on something like an ability pill.
  • Most importantly, introducing them this way adds value to dungeons as a whole, rather than just the reward/legendary at the end. Now you are encouraged to sink balls on your way to the end, explore the dungeon in full and re-enter even after you've obtained a prize. We've toyed with the idea of limited bag space within dungeons, meaning selecting enough room for balls (and resisting the urge to use them on Hidden Ability 'mon) will play a factor.
  • To add to the above - it encourages exploration of/adds value to different dungeons; rather than just running the one you feel most comfortable with/is easiest. If you want an electric Hidden Ability species you'll need to visit an Electric-type dungeon, if you want fire then you'll need to go into the Fire-type dungeon and so on.

In addition to this, as I've pointed out in quite a few threads already - while it is of course 'more effort' to rebreed, it isn't wasted time, since your current comps will save you a huge amount of time with the re-breeding process.

 

Apologies if you're not happy with these answers.

You could go the way you wanted to do it but additionaly to that add craftable HIdden Ability pills made from dungeon stuff(amount of that is up to the balance).

 

Pills could be made only for specific pokemon (like mega-stones are exclusive to 1poke) or for group of pokemons (for example pill made from dungeon stuff from the first dungeon will change ability for arcanine,typhlosion,torkoal and Pansear). Calling it "Pill of <dungeon name> with text explaining which pokes can use it. This way you control which pokes get HA and avoid confusion

 

Dungeon stuff could be found inside dungeon or pokemons with HA could hold them or there could be a collector outside colleting HA pokes and giving that dungeon stuff in return(whatever fits balance, could be all of that with resonable amount and %). This way dungeons are still attractive and lure players even more because for rebreed you need 1 HA-mon and to craft this dungeon pill you need at least several runs/mons. Players can choose to spend their time breeding or running dungeon (depends on what suits them)

 

Dungeons get more attention, Players with comps have alternative option. Everyone seems to be happy. Are there any big cons to this idea?

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Malorne   
1 minute ago, Toupi said:

You could go the way you wanted to do it but additionaly to that add craftable HIdden Ability pills made from dungeon stuff(amount of that is up to the balance).

I like that actually

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NikhilR   

@Darkshade

 

I honestly didn't know that the method to implement HA was through another process of grinding. As it is, I am not tempted to play the PvP aspect of this game because of the large grind associated with it which makes it difficult to be on an equal footing with those can grind effortlessly, and the lack of team preview which makes every game more like rock-paper-scissors. 

 

Given the direction this game is going forward, it just feels like you want to kill your PvP playerbase.  Can you give me a few reasons as to why a player, who is solely interested in PvP, should continue to play this game and not showdown? 

Edited by NikhilR

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suigin   
15 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

"Let's not implement these abilities because we hate banning things and just tell anyone that disagrees to git gud"

Absolutely brilliant. 

Yeah let's intentionally remove a pokemon's entire competitive value by getting it insta-banned just to have a nice PVE sweeper, that's a good idea and won't make anyone who spent good time and money breeding said mon upset.

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32 minutes ago, suigin said:

Yeah let's intentionally remove a pokemon's entire competitive value by getting it insta-banned just to have a nice PVE sweeper, that's a good idea and won't make anyone who spent good time and money breeding said mon upset.

I'd just do a complex ban if you really think the ability could be so problematic.

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Kizhaz   
53 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

"Let's not implement these abilities because we hate banning things and just tell anyone that disagrees to git gud"

Absolutely brilliant. 

I think it's been fairly obvious that we want to have as little ubers as possible since the Unova update. This isn't because we hate some Pokemon or anything, it's so that those people that get through the story and want to get into PvP can still have access to all the Pokemon they wish to use. Having access to all the colours of the rainbow is better than banning green and saying you can't choose it.

 

As for exploring the dungeons themselves, it's almost as if some of you don't want to play the game but rather just have the end result. This is something we're obviously trying to avoid as this is an MMO, not a simulator.

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suigin   
Just now, notmudkip0 said:

I'd just do a complex ban if you really think the ability could be so problematic.

Ok Speed Boost Blaziken is allowed but only if it uses Scratch, Agility, Focus Punch and Ember and also holds an Lagging Tail, has 69 evs in speed and is also shiny.

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Senile   
2 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

I'd just do a complex ban if you really think the ability could be so problematic.

Okay, hear me out here, and I know this might be a leap to think about, but bear with me:

 

Why?

 

Why in the world, in any universe, in any perceivable, possible reality, would we ever opt to do that? What could we possibly gain by doing that?

 

It is literally more work and trouble for everyone involved to go out of the way to release this ability on Blaziken, look at it, and ban it (or lolcomplexban it). When we could just, you know, not release it.

 

Why is it, in your mind, to go through the trouble of releasing it and then complex banning it (???), as opposed to just not releasing it?

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3 minutes ago, suigin said:

Ok Speed Boost Blaziken is allowed but only if it uses Scratch, Agility, Focus Punch and Ember and also holds an Lagging Tail, has 69 evs in speed and is also shiny.

Or just ban Speed Boost on Blaziken? At least for OU so if/when a list of ubers is made we could use it there.

@Senile I'd like to use some of these HAs for PvE and I'm sure others would too. Would be nice to use them outside of competitive.

Edited by notmudkip0

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Malorne   
2 minutes ago, Kizhaz said:

I think it's been fairly obvious that we want to have as little ubers as possible since the Unova update. This isn't because we hate some Pokemon or anything, it's so that those people that get through the story and want to get into PvP can still have access to all the Pokemon they wish to use. Having access to all the colours of the rainbow is better than banning green and saying you can't choose it.

 

As for exploring the dungeons themselves, it's almost as if some of you don't want to play the game but rather just have the end result. This is something we're obviously trying to avoid as this is an MMO, not a simulator.

Difference is, you added a few new colors and be like "sorry, u need to make the rainbow from 0 bc we added new colors if u want it to have all the colors"

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RysPicz   
32 minutes ago, suigin said:

Yeah let's intentionally remove a pokemon's entire competitive value by getting it insta-banned just to have a nice PVE sweeper, that's a good idea and won't make anyone who spent good time and money breeding said mon upset.

PokeMMO meta differs a huge fucking ton from smogon. I'm unsure about which pokemon you are talking about, but if something is broken in a different metagame, it does not mean it will be broken here- and this goes the other way around- things that were totally fine in other metagames were banned in ours.

Examples? Snorlax, Tyranitar, Gengar, Blissey in our previous meta.

 

Additionally this might help to build up a legit ubers tier, cuz wynaut, maybe in 20 years we will get legendaries? ;v)

 

I'm always all up for giving something a chance and testing it up instead of instantly discarding it basing on theorymoning. If it will be broken, shame- let's also face it, aside from Speed Boost Blaziken and MAYBE Moxie Salamence (let's not forget we got 90 base power outrage) there might not be many bans overall due to that, unless I'm missing something.

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suigin   
1 minute ago, notmudkip0 said:

Or just ban Speed Boost on Blaziken? At least for OU so if/when a list of ubers is made we could use it there.

Because it's a slippery slope.

Should Technician-less Scizor be UU since it has infinitely less usage than Technician Scizor? (Let's assume it works atm for the sake of this example)

I'm sure everyone who has been using and playing against Scizor since the Unova release would say "fuck no" to that. Now that'd add the extra mile of not only relying on usage of certain mons to tier them but also on the usage of their abilities and it's just a clusterfuck.

Add the extra slope of "what if we allow STAB less, technician less Scizor in NU" for extra fuckery.

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1 minute ago, suigin said:

Because it's a slippery slope.

Should Technician-less Scizor be UU since it has infinitely less usage than Technician Scizor? (Let's assume it works atm for the sake of this example)

I'm sure everyone who has been using and playing against Scizor since the Unova release would say "fuck no" to that. Now that'd add the extra mile of not only relying on usage of certain mons to tier them but also on the usage of their abilities and it's just a clusterfuck.

Add the extra slope of "what if we allow STAB less, technician less Scizor in NU" for extra fuckery.

Well, you all seem to have an idea of what could be broken, so simply banning the abilities on the Pokemon when they're released works fine.

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Senile   
6 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

Or just ban Speed Boost on Blaziken? At least for OU so if/when a list of ubers is made we could use it there.

@Senile I'd like to use some of these HAs for PvE and I'm sure others would too. Would be nice to use them outside of competitive.

You are aware that using dumb-busted HA pokemon in PvE is a large part of the reason they're not being released at all, instead of released and then banned, correct? Not using them in PvE is a large part of the reason for not adding them. Not being able to use them in PvE isn't collateral damage, it's an intentional design choice.

 

5 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

PokeMMO meta differs a huge fucking ton from smogon. I'm unsure about which pokemon you are talking about, but if something is broken in a different metagame, it does not mean it will be broken here- and this goes the other way around- things that were totally fine in other metagames were banned in ours.

Examples? Snorlax, Tyranitar, Gengar, Blissey in our previous meta.

 

Additionally this might help to build up a legit ubers tier, cuz wynaut, maybe in 20 years we will get legendaries? ;v)

 

I'm always all up for giving something a chance and testing it up instead of instantly discarding it basing on theorymoning. If it will be broken, shame- let's also face it, aside from Speed Boost Blaziken and MAYBE Moxie Salamence (let's not forget we got 90 base power outrage) there might not be many bans overall due to that, unless I'm missing something.

Pretty sure he was talking about Speed Boost Blaziken there, which I don't think any single sane person will disagree with, because that thing is ridiculous.

 

"Legit ubers tier" will never be a thing, really, sorry m8, I like my Arceus bois as much as the next guy but it isn't meant to be.

 

As for giving things a chance... I mean, it's not like we're completely revoking any hidden abilities from existence. Sure, we're restricting stuff like Moody (lol), Speed Boost Blaziken, and Shadow Tag Gothitelle should all be relatively easy outs, but other than that, it's not like there's some implicit agreement to shunt everything out.

 

Keep in mind, Hidden Abilities won't all be released at once; I wouldn't expect stuff like MoxieMence or Multiscale Dragonite to come out in the first wave, but it isn't as if the possibility of them ever coming out is gone, especially since they become really interesting pokemon with their new abilities.

 

tl;dr: I don't think you need to worry too much.

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DoubleJ   

It seems we've all forgotten that this is PokeMMO and not PokeBattleSim

 

 As a competitive player, I hate the idea of dungeons mostly because I know it will take the dev team months and maybe years just to introduce one or two that work. It's also going to be a pain in the ass to go in and catch crap, breed 'em, and then move set them (fucking arm and a leg just to add moves).

 

Unfortunately for me though, this is a really cool way to introduce something that should rightfully be hard to obtain from an MMO standpoint. The game needs side quests that are worthwhile and this might just be it. Is it shitty that the TC gets to hand pick which hidden abilities get dropped? Certainly, but mostly because it robs us from using some broken abilities in PvE and friendlies. Everything should be introduced and if it's broke, simply ban it in competitive play. Ez Pz. 

 

Anyhoos, @Darkshade you do you and we'll play if we feel like it. Pretty simple.

 

If the game is too much of a grind then don't log on and play. Most of us 2012 and 2013 boys have been around for too long anyway. We all sound like spoiled brats tbh. 

 

 

download.jpg

 

 

Would have been cool to have had a more complete update though. This piecing things together crap is pretty annoying. Seems like every week we've got new info that something is changing or broken or whatever. 

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