Obtaining Hidden Abilities

[Gunthug]

8 minutes ago, redspawn said:

So sec, let me name you a few non gen5.

Slowbro, slowking, breloom, porygon, kingdra, crobat, alakazam, clefable, pikachu, typhlosion, dragonite, salamence, gyarados, starmie.

I'm not saying they're not usable as they are right now, I'm saying they're a lot more usable and better with their HA. A few not really more usable like gyarados or mence, but still, do you get what I mean? So if they get their HA, nobody in their right mind will keep theirs without the HA, since the 'upgrade' is huge.

Imagine this, I take pride in my ditto breeds as well, they're a lot better than the average you find on GTL, lets say a Pory2 Bold 27/31/31/x/31/31(2.5m in dittos), or lets even say one that I sold a few months ago,  a Pory2 Modest 31/31/30/30/31/31(I estimated it costs at least ~15m in dittos to breed another similiar), how will/would I fix any of those? Do you think rebreeding is the answer? Cause I think otherwise.

Terrible examples even the second time through, most of the ones you listed are fine without their HA and most active comp players will likely want one of each

 

Regardless though I guess I'm not in a great spot to give people trouble about this issue - I personally have not sunk hours and hours into breeding comps recently and I don't plan to, I get all my competitive urges out of the way on a website that let's me create comps with the snap of my fingers. What is absurd though is the notion that implementing HAs this way will destroy the playerbase. Most of you will still play comp if HAs are introduced like this. An enormous amount of players WILL put in the time to rebreed their old comps to make new toys. And the game will go on as usual. Why do we need to do the same old "the game is doooooooomed" charade?

[Senile]

11 minutes ago, gbwead said:

lusarios?

The comps that players might have already bred for singles and would now get significantly outclassed if they didn't have their HA are imo: Venusaur, Fearow, Pikachu, Raichu, Sandslash, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, defensive Vileplume, Ninetales, Crobat, Primeape?, Politoed, Alakazam, Slowbro, Slowking, Kingler, defensive Exeggutor, Hitmonlee, Lickilicky, Tangela,  Seaking, Starmie, Jynx?, Tauros, Espeon, Flareon, Snorlax?, Dragonite, Feraligatr, Noctowl, Xatu, Jumpluff?, Quagsire, Murkrow, Gligar, Qwilfish, Heracross, Sceptile, Exploud, Sableye, Mawile?, Sharpedo, Cacturne, Altaria?, Zangoose, Crawdaunt, Cradily, Kecleon? and Clamperl?

 

Stuff like Salamence would benefit from Moxie, but I don't think it would make Intimidate Salamence unsable.

Reckless Hitmonlee is perfectly good.

 

Oblivious Lickilicky is generally better than Cloud Nine in any meta without significant weather usage, since any relevant Lickilicky probably has non-attacking moves and is pretty slow, so being taunt immune is actually relevant.

 

Analytic Starmie is only a "significant difference" on an offensive set; Natural Cure is still standard on Defensive/Utility sets. Which one is better is entirely dependent on the current metagame. Even then, it's not like Natural Cure Offensive Starmie is completely useless, it's seen use before even with Analytic competing.

 

Gluttony Snorlax being listed here is just genuinely confusing, idk why it was mentioned. At best, it might see niche usage? But to say the standard, defensive/offensive Snorlaxes that currently exist would be significantly outclassed in anyway by Gluttony Snorlax is odd.

 

Disagree on Noctowl. You're right that, in a vacuum, Tinted Lens is significantly better as an ability than Insomnia, but most Noctowl sets that ever see use are primarily Defensive, not Offensive, where the benefit from Tinted Lens is hardly relevant, whereas acting as a sleep absorber is relevant.

 

Water Absorb Quagsire has a niche in OU as a Kabutops check, especially without Gastrodon around. With that being said, yeah, it's fair to say Unaware is better 99% of the time.

 

Current Hyper Cutter Gligars could see usage as more offensive Acrobatics-Flying Gem Gliscors.

 

Guts Heracross is perfectly viable over Moxie, although Moxie >>> on Scarf sets generally, I'd say.

 

Unburden doesn't outclass Overgrow at all, considering Sceptile has more sets than "x Gem".

 

I guess Sheer Force Mawile is better than Intimidate without Baton Pass around, but they're both pretty awful, so idk man i guess you can have that one.

 

Cloud Nine most definitely doesn't outclass Natural Cure on Altaria.

 

Kecleon doesn't get Protean until Gen 6, since it's not a gen 5 ability, so we won't have it.

 

I guess Rattled is better than Shell Armor on Clamperl?? But you could still evolve it into perfectly usable Shell Smash Gorebyss/Huntail, since they don't especially need their Hidden Abilities to function.

 

I don't really disagree on most of the others too much, but a large amount of the list is far from "significantly outclassed".

[razimove]

Just now, Gunthug said:

Terrible examples even the second time through, most of the ones you listed are fine without their HA and most active comp players will likely want one of each

 

Regardless though I guess I'm not in a great spot to give people trouble about this issue - I personally have not sunk hours and hours into breeding comps recently and I don't plan to, I get all my competitive urges out of the way on a website that let's me create comps with the snap of my fingers. What is absurd though is the notion that implementing HAs this way will destroy the playerbase. Most of you will still play comp if HAs are introduced like this. An enormous amount of players WILL put in the time to rebreed their old comps to make new toys. And the game will go on as usual. Why do we need to do the same old "the game is doooooooomed" charade?

Never said it would destroy the playerbase, but it won't make the playerbase happy either. And man you can't really compare the utility of a regenerator slowbro to a non regenerator, yes it has some uses, but don't compare, like I said, they all have their uses, but the HA is a huge upgrade to them and gives a loaf of fresh air to the pokemon, sorry if I just butchered an expression. I personally don't mind rebreeding, what really worries me is my genderless, I paid a LOT for the dittos, like a lot a lot. 

Oh, speaking of dittos, there's your great example, Imposter ditto vs current ditto.

[gbwead]

4 minutes ago, Senile said:

Reckless Hitmonlee is perfectly good.

I agree.

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

Oblivious Lickilicky is generally better than Cloud Nine in any meta without significant weather usage, since any relevant Lickilicky probably has non-attacking moves and is pretty slow, so being taunt immune is actually relevant.

I have to disagree with that one.

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

Analytic Starmie is only a "significant difference" on an offensive set; Natural Cure is still standard on Defensive/Utility sets. Which one is better is entirely dependent on the current metagame. Even then, it's not like Natural Cure Offensive Starmie is completely useless, it's seen use before even with Analytic competing.

I agree.

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

Gluttony Snorlax being listed here is just genuinely confusing, idk why it was mentioned. At best, it might see niche usage? But to say the standard, defensive/offensive Snorlaxes that currently exist would be significantly outclassed in anyway by Gluttony Snorlax is odd.

Ya, I wasn't sure about that one, but I think people have just so many Snorlax already that most of them would simply benefit from the a gluttony set.

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

Disagree on Noctowl. You're right that, in a vacuum, Tinted Lens is significantly better as an ability than Insomnia, but most Noctowl sets that ever see use are primarily Defensive, not Offensive, where the benefit from Tinted Lens is hardly relevant, whereas acting as a sleep absorber is relevant.

Ya, I actually forgot Noctowl could learn Roost lmao. The only Noctowl I ever saw in PvP were the ones that dropped Insomnia to play Rest, so I was assuming Insomnia was not even an option.

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

Water Absorb Quagsire has a niche in OU as a Kabutops check, especially without Gastrodon around. With that being said, yeah, it's fair to say Unaware is better 99% of the time.

Current Hyper Cutter Gligars could see usage as more offensive Acrobatics-Flying Gem Gliscors.

Let's be real, they are completly outclassed. They can still be used, but these mons were already very popular and I wouldn't be surprise if many had more than one in their pc. 

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

Cloud Nine most definitely doesn't outclass Natural Cure on Altaria.

I guess it depends what tiers will end up looking like, but keep in mind that the larger portion of bred Altarias are Bold or Relaxed.

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

Unburden doesn't outclass Overgrow at all, considering Sceptile has more sets than "x Gem".

Maybe, I'm not sure about that one.

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

I guess Sheer Force Mawile is better than Intimidate without Baton Pass around, but they're both pretty awful, so idk man i guess you can have that one.

Ya, I added a question mark for Mawile since I'm not sure how they were already played. Offensive Mawiles would benefit from Sheer Force, but I believe most of them were defensive.

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

I guess Rattled is better than Shell Armor on Clamperl?? But you could still evolve it into perfectly usable Shell Smash Gorebyss/Huntail, since they don't especially need their Hidden Abilities to function.

True.

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

Kecleon doesn't get Protean until Gen 6, since it's not a gen 5 ability, so we won't have it.

Yes, already fixed.

[Senile]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Let's be real, they are completly outclassed. They can still be used, but these mons were already very popular and I wouldn't be surprise if many had more than one in their pc. 

 

I guess it depends what tiers will end up looking like, but keep in mind that the larger portion of bred Altarias are Bold or Relaxed.

Water Absorb Quagsire is generally outclassed by Unaware, but until we get Gastrodon, it has a niche imo. Like I said though, you're right, it mostly outclasses it.

 

Disagree on Gligar hard though. Acrobatics + Flying Gem Offensive Gliscor is legitimate. You're right, people probably have multiple Gligars and most of them probably can't be realistically turned into offensive Gliscors, and even if all of them could be, you probably wouldn't want too many of them anyway, but the point stands.

 

I don't really get the Altaria point. I can't imagine Cloud Nine outclassing Natural Cure on a Bold/Relaxed Defensive Altaria, since Natural Cure is such a good defensive ability, and Cloud Nine is situational at best. At best you could argue it's a sidegrade I guess, but I really feel like you're massively overrating Cloud Nine on every pokemon that can get it.

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, Senile said:

Water Absorb Quagsire is generally outclassed by Unaware, but until we get Gastrodon, it has a niche imo. Like I said though, you're right, it mostly outclasses it.

 

Disagree on Gligar hard though. Acrobatics + Flying Gem Offensive Gliscor is legitimate. You're right, people probably have multiple Gligars and most of them probably can't be realistically turned into offensive Gliscors, and even if all of them could be, you probably wouldn't want too many of them anyway, but the point stands.

Quagsire, we agree. Gligar, yes many of them are impish and therefore will now be outclassed.

4 minutes ago, Senile said:

I don't really get the Altaria point. I can't imagine Cloud Nine outclassing Natural Cure on a Bold/Relaxed Defensive Altaria, since Natural Cure is such a good defensive ability, and Cloud Nine is situational at best. At best you could argue it's a sidegrade I guess, but I really feel like you're massively overrating Cloud Nine on every pokemon that can get it.

I like Cloud Nine, yes xD

[Laz]

So if we breed a female pokemon that has a hidden ability with a male, the chance of passing it to the egg, is it 100% or 60% ?

I hope it's 100%, and honestly I had no idea how to obtain them in the original pokemon games until I checked recently. Yes, it is even more complicated than it will be in Pokemmo, plus the chance of passing it to the egg is only 60%, which if switched to 100% in Pokemmo, people should actually be grateful about this as it makes it much easier and less painful.

Now, when tf are we getting the legendaries ? It has been years o_O

 

[Darkshade]

11 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

I hope it's 100%

That's the intention, yes.

[Gunthug]

54 minutes ago, redspawn said:

Never said it would destroy the playerbase, but it won't make the playerbase happy either. And man you can't really compare the utility of a regenerator slowbro to a non regenerator, yes it has some uses, but don't compare, like I said, they all have their uses, but the HA is a huge upgrade to them and gives a loaf of fresh air to the pokemon, sorry if I just butchered an expression. I personally don't mind rebreeding, what really worries me is my genderless, I paid a LOT for the dittos, like a lot a lot. 

Oh, speaking of dittos, there's your great example, Imposter ditto vs current ditto.

I get that the genderless are gonna be the real money sinks, but I dunno. I'm having trouble getting worked up about this - hidden abilities are a new thing, why should we expect our old stuff to suffice anymore? Again though, I don't have very much stake in this so take what I say with a grain of salt. I wasn't directing the "our playerbase will be destroyed" comment at you, it's a sentiment I've seen several times in this and other threads discussing the update and the new changes

 

Also, that's your great example? All of the comp players that will have to CAST ASIDE their old competitive dittos in order to rebreed an imposter ditto???? Boy, that could really put a dent in our competitive playerbase

[razimove]

9 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I get that the genderless are gonna be the real money sinks, but I dunno. I'm having trouble getting worked up about this - hidden abilities are a new thing, why should we expect our old stuff to suffice anymore? Again though, I don't have very much stake in this so take what I say with a grain of salt. I wasn't directing the "our playerbase will be destroyed" comment at you, it's a sentiment I've seen several times in this and other threads discussing the update and the new changes

 

Also, that's your great example? All of the comp players that will have to CAST ASIDE their old competitive dittos in order to rebreed an imposter ditto???? Boy, that could really put a dent in our competitive playerbase

The HA ditto was just me giving you an example of a old poke who really needs the HA to even be taken half seriously. Nothing else. Yeah I know what you mean, still don't see it being viable at all, especially for the genderless... is just dumb imo

[Gunthug]

15 minutes ago, redspawn said:

The HA ditto was just me giving you an example of a old poke who really needs the HA to even be taken half seriously. Nothing else. Yeah I know what you mean, still don't see it being viable at all, especially for the genderless... is just dumb imo

The entire reason people are mad is because they'll have to rebreed their old comps, which they sunk a lot of money into, in order to get new HA comps. Ditto is a really really bad example to address that concern. So are the pokes you listed earlier, which were: Slowbro, slowking, breloom, porygon, kingdra, crobat, alakazam, clefable, pikachu, typhlosion, dragonite, salamence, gyarados, starmie.

 

Of those, Breloom, Kingdra, Clefable, mence, gyara, starmie all have perfectly good HAs and won't NEED to be rebred for the HA (will probably make sense to breed a new one and keep 2). I think GB came in after you and provided a better list, but lets try to keep sight on what we're arguing about, ok?

[Jaawax]

Shiny comp from a teamate, will he have to spend 30M+ rebreeding his shinies?

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Jaawax

[razimove]

18 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

The entire reason people are mad is because they'll have to rebreed their old comps, which they sunk a lot of money into, in order to get new HA comps. Ditto is a really really bad example to address that concern. So are the pokes you listed earlier, which were: Slowbro, slowking, breloom, porygon, kingdra, crobat, alakazam, clefable, pikachu, typhlosion, dragonite, salamence, gyarados, starmie.

 

Of those, Breloom, Kingdra, Clefable, mence, gyara, starmie all have perfectly good HAs and won't NEED to be rebred for the HA (will probably make sense to breed a new one and keep 2). I think GB came in after you and provided a better list, but lets try to keep sight on what we're arguing about, ok?

Clefable kinda needs tho in the meta, and another good example would be Quagsire I guess. Kingdra sniper, crits ignoring the sp.atk drop from draco meteor is huge imo, although I guess it won't be very viable, so yeah, probably of those 5 you listed only clefable I'd consider in need of it. 

Also Jaawax concern is also a concern of mine, not that I'm breeding or have any shiny bred for me currently, but those that were bred by me and sold, i.e. Gyarados,  pikachu, breloom. Previous gen, perfectly fine, gyarados still is, breloom aswell, but what about pikachu? 

With that said, got nothing to say but that I agree with you. Still can't find a way to be happy about the idea but, hopefully they find a solution that would make a money sink, and not a complete waste of time for those who spent hours breeding.

[NikhilR]

8 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I get that the genderless are gonna be the real money sinks, but I dunno. I'm having trouble getting worked up about this - hidden abilities are a new thing, why should we expect our old stuff to suffice anymore? Again though, I don't have very much stake in this so take what I say with a grain of salt. I wasn't directing the "our playerbase will be destroyed" comment at you, it's a sentiment I've seen several times in this and other threads discussing the update and the new changes

 

Also, that's your great example? All of the comp players that will have to CAST ASIDE their old competitive dittos in order to rebreed an imposter ditto???? Boy, that could really put a dent in our competitive playerbase

I think it's more of a slow kill tbh. Most players like KingBowser, Raaidn and Kanzo have just stopped playing tours altogether. Maybe it could be real life catching up, but if you talk to any of them, they'll tell you how insane the grind is. Zebra and Des are both busy with college, but Zeb has stated several times how the update is going to make him quit because he doesn't want to go through the grind. Des if he plans on grinding will probably stick to playing just one tier. Jovi and XPLOZ have both stopped playing the game altogether. LifeStyle has told me that Yubell is lazy to grind and just comes online to then afk. And as for myself,  I could be wrong, but I can only see myself helping out my teammates during tours and not playing them myself.  I remember names from the spanish community like piata, Haazuu, timwaps, Walpayer who I don't see take part in tours as often as they used to. It definitely could be the issue of irl commitments, but I think there's a reason that Smogon is able to hold onto most of its oldtimers compared to us. Change isn't the issue, but the direction where the game is headed where everything is becoming harder and less enjoyable. The more time consuming + costlier breeding, automated tournaments, gift shinies with no hp and not enough yen,  berries becoming something that you need to now farm etc.  The only reason people still continue to play the game is because of the friendships they've built over the years. It's being able to interact with your teammates that makes the grind less painful. 

 

We do get more players coming back with the update though, as you can see. But if you compare the comp playerbase today and two years ago, there will be a lot of difference. I don't think the devs think of this as an issue because all they see when they look at a bracket is if it gets filled up, but not who fills it up. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by NikhilR

[Intor]

 

I almost do not write anything in this forum my user is only for the basics but this time I have something to say.

I have around 120 5x31 perfects comps, including 6x31 mixed and without mentioning the 2x31 3x27 + or those that are raised based on dittos and I think this is a slap in the face to the breeders that we have been breeding for a long time in this way we would have to return to raise everything again, without mentioning the time, and the yens that we would spend on that, also in getting back the breeders I prefer to spend Reward Points to implement pills that give the HA to throw almost 4 years of tedious upbringing and a lot of fatigue I think which better implement those pills and can be exchanged either by BP or RP is my humble opinion.

I mean, I also study and I do not have much time for the breed and I know what happens to many of my former colleagues as Nikhil R mentioned. Many people have been here so long that doing that would be throwing away so many years of trajectory in the upbringing and in the competitive thing, that they say to me of the pokemones Shiny gift perhaps also they will become to breed ?, that will happen with them I do not speak by my I speak by the people who have many an example is Frags, doublej, enchanteur, xsparkie , nikhilr among others should think well about what satisfies the customer and the proposal of pills based on RP or BP I think it would be the best option and we won the 2 parts.

[Kyu]

We are buffing breeding because it's too hard.

 

We don't want to give out free HAs right now because we don't think that's good. We're not releasing them all at once anyway.

 

If we think that HAs are so fundamental that you literally can't play the game without them, we will buff them too. But we don't right now. If we are wrong, we will fix it.