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Obtaining Hidden Abilities


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16 minutes ago, Kyu said:

I misread the original post and thought this was meant to be the only way to obtain an HA or something. But this is a really convoluted method of creating a "Hidden Ability Pill", and I don't want to do that.

It seems to me to be remarkably similar to the current NPC's which exchange items for the teaching of a specific move which can be found throughout the game. Additionally it is the only way I could think of to implement the upgrade route without violating the policies which darkshade laid out.

 

16 minutes ago, Kyu said:

Static money sinks aren't an accurate representation of value when:

  1. Players decide the pricing of the breeding system's results (i.e. no NPCs define the price of a "comp", so it is worth what the market decides).
  2. The value of money differs depending on the amount of money the world creates. If I went and implemented this suggestion from an hour ago, your 100k is now worth less, because more money is generated in the world.

The pricing of comps is based on the cost of braces, the cost of everstones, the rarity of the female's species and the rarity of the egg group breeder. All of these factors will remain identical regardless of whether or not a hidden ability is bred into it. (Again assuming 100% inheritance rate) This is because the hidden ability variable can ride on top of any other variable (ie. if you have a natured poke which you are breeding to carry its nature down, you can also carry down the HA at the same time). Based on these factors the difficulty and cost of creating a hidden ability pokemon and a non-hidden ability pokemon of the same species is almost identical.

 

16 minutes ago, Kyu said:

 

If I wanted to create an HA pill, I'd do it in a manner where it requires certain objects from within the Dungeon to function as crafting materials, because I want this function to be exclusive to Dungeons.

 

If you made it a pill you'd violate darkshade's #2 objection, not that I mind. In fact please go ahead and make it a pill, just don't make me rebreed everything please.

 

 

 

Edited by Alouu
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2 minutes ago, Alouu said:

It seems to me to be remarkably similar to the current NPC's which exchange items for the teaching of a specific move which can be found throughout the game.

I don't want to treat HAs that way. They're special because I want more dungeon rewards.

 

2 minutes ago, Alouu said:

Additionally it is the only way I could think of to implement the upgrade route without violating the policies which darkshade laid out.

Darkshade's list isn't all-inclusive as to the reasons we're doing HAs this way. It's a complicated problem which hasn't been fully discussed, and can't really be summarized in a dumpster fire of a thread like this where everyone just wants to vent.

 

2 minutes ago, Alouu said:

The pricing of comps is based on the cost of braces, the cost of everstones, the rarity of the female's species and the rarity of the egg group breeder. All of these factors will remain identical regardless of whether or not a hidden ability is bred into it. (Again assuming 100% inheritance rate) This is because the hidden ability variable can ride on top of any other variable (ie. if you have a natured poke which you are breeding to carry its nature down, you can also carry down the HA at the same time). Based on these factors the difficulty and cost of creating a hidden ability pokemon and a non-hidden ability pokemon of the same species is almost identical.

You're assuming that the availability of a breeding partner is a constant, but breeders are priced based on the amount of people generating them and market demand. They're not like NPC items where there's a 100% availability to items. As well, HAs aren't valued equally across all species in terms of competitiveness (see: the argument about Blaziken's HA earlier), which makes a static pricing inappropriate to me.

 

2 minutes ago, Alouu said:

If you made it a pill you'd violate darkshade's #2 objection, not that I mind. In fact please go ahead and make it a pill, just don't make me rebreed everything please.

This isn't in reference to a specific part of the post or anything, but I'm just going to note: While the idea can theoretically work, I don't think it's good. The reason things like Ability Pills exist is because we couldn't figure out a better way to do it, or we thought the alternative was too complicated and we needed to increase malleability of stats on a player's work.

 

I'm pretty sure we're going to provide HA-specific buffs to breeding anyway, so I don't think it'll be too bad regardless of how we do it. So maybe just chill for a while until we actually figure out what we want to do, then you guys can be mad.

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2 minutes ago, Kyu said:

I don't want to treat HAs that way. They're special because I want more dungeon rewards.

If you consider being able to pick up HA-Mons as a side reward for going through a dungeon, then an NPC located in the same area as those HA-mons which upgrades any pokemon you have of the same evolutionary line is basically the same reward but packaged for people who already made a comp mon of that species. In any situation that the NPC wasn't implemented and people went to the area to find a HA-Mon to rebreed their comp, they would go to that exact same spot if the NPC was implemented to upgrade their comp instead, in terms of player experience we are talking almost the exact same thing. In the situation where the player wants a HA-poke they don't already have a comp of then it doesnt make a difference if the NPC is there or not.

 

8 minutes ago, Kyu said:

You're assuming that the availability of a breeding partner is a constant, but breeders are priced based on the amount of people generating them and market demand. They're not like NPC items where there's a 100% availability to items. As well, HAs aren't valued equally across all species in terms of competitiveness (see: the argument about Blaziken's HA earlier), which makes a static pricing inappropriate to me.

The availability of a breeding partner is constant, on a species by species basis. If you want a comp dragonite for minimum money you get one female dratini and a lot of magikarp, the difficulty and cost of creating a comp dragonite is therefore based on the availability and difficulty of catching magikarp. If you want a comp multiscale dragonite the only difference is you catch that one female dratini in a dungeon instead of the safari zone, that's all. Therefore from a cost-to-create standpoint HA-comps and non HA-comps are almost identical. As you say it is true that one is more desirable than the other, I would point to that fact as a reason not to piss people off by rendering their once top-of-the line mon as obsolete breed fodder.

 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Alouu said:

If you consider being able to pick up HA-Mons as a side reward for going through a dungeon, then an NPC located in the same area as those HA-mons which upgrades any pokemon you have of the same evolutionary line is basically the same reward but packaged for people who already made a comp mon of that species.

If it's the same reward then what's the point of making an NPC for it ;^)))

 

14 minutes ago, Alouu said:

In any situation that the NPC wasn't implemented and people went to the area to find a HA-Mon to rebreed their comp, they would go to that exact same spot if the NPC was implemented to upgrade their comp instead, in terms of player experience we are talking almost the exact same thing. In the situation where the player wants a HA-poke they don't already have a comp of then it doesnt make a difference if the NPC is there or not.

No

 

14 minutes ago, Alouu said:

The availability of a breeding partner is constant, on a species by species basis. If you want a comp dragonite for minimum money you get one female dratini and a lot of magikarp, the difficulty and cost of creating a comp dragonite is therefore based on the availability and difficulty of catching magikarp. If you want a comp multiscale dragonite the only difference is you catch that one female dratini in a dungeon instead of the safari zone, that's all. Therefore from a cost-to-create standpoint HA-comps and non HA-comps are almost identical.

I guess if your time is completely worthless, you fail to factor in wild IV randomization, and you don't apply any special rulesets to HA captures, sure, you can look at it that way.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Kyu said:

If it's the same reward then what's the point of making an NPC for it ;^)))

In one form of the reward, you pay in time and hassle and money. In the other form of the reward you pay in the same amount of money + $100k.

 

3 minutes ago, Kyu said:

No

I think the things I said that you quoted and replied that to are self evidently true.

 

4 minutes ago, Kyu said:

I guess if your time is completely worthless, you fail to factor in wild IV randomization, and you don't apply any special rulesets to HA captures, sure, you can look at it that way.

I don't consider time worthless, I consider the time to be constant. You can spend 5 hours catching magikarp to breed with a normal dratini or you can spend 5 hours catching magikarp to breed with a HA carrying dratini. You spend 5 hours either way. As for the  IV's of course they are random, but they are equally random just as the time is equally spent. Special rulesets to HA-captures could be a factor I grant you, but i'll wager the magikarp catching still takes up the bulk of the time and thus the cost of breeding the two is still almost identical.

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Just now, Alouu said:

In one form of the reward, you pay in time and hassle and money. In the other form of the reward you pay in the same amount of money + $100k.

Just now, Alouu said:

I think the things I said that you quoted and replied that to are self evidently true.

We're not making an NPC for it. We've already explored all aspects of the economic/gameplay implications and I don't think it makes the game better.

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2 minutes ago, Kyu said:

We're not making an NPC for it. We've already explored all aspects of the economic/gameplay implications and I don't think it makes the game better.

mildly off topic, I noticed it was mentioned that Dungeons would generally be type based (Fire type dungeon , water type dungeon, etc)

Considering we are confirmed to be getting a dungeon prior to Sinnoh (and some of the pokes that would be found IN sinnoh) will you return to old dungeons and add in pokemon from sinnoh of that type to that dungeon or will they be part of later dungeons, basically wondering if dungeons will be updated over the course of their lifetimes or if they are one and done go enjoy kiddies kinda dealio.

 

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1 minute ago, Matoka said:

Considering we are confirmed to be getting a dungeon prior to Sinnoh (and some of the pokes that would be found IN sinnoh) will you return to old dungeons and add in pokemon from sinnoh of that type to that dungeon

Sure

 

1 minute ago, Matoka said:

, basically wondering if dungeons will be updated over the course of their lifetimes or if they are one and done go enjoy kiddies kinda dealio.

I'm pretty sure we're going to have to expand these over time regardless of Sinnoh's implementation, because we're going to have to deal with the problem of "Mythicals" eventually.

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9 minutes ago, Kyu said:

Sure

 

I'm pretty sure we're going to have to expand these over time regardless of Sinnoh's implementation, because we're going to have to deal with the problem of "Mythicals" eventually.

At current, would you have anything you could tell us about where you will locate dungeons?

Will they be inserted into the world with new warp zones to them able to be found (presumably) at end-game content areas? e.g. a gap in trees at abundant shrine in unova is added that leads to the new dungeon
OR
will it be more akin to how North Pole was done where an NPC warps you there or something similar?

I am guessing it would be easier to build the dungeons using the RSE / FRLG roms rather than Unova due to its 3D nature, does that mean that despite FRLG / RSE being optional now and Unova being the required base rom that people may need additional roms to access these dungeons? (this is incredibly minor as most people have every rom anyway, but it may still be worth checking)

Thanks for responding. super hype for dungeons but there's not much info about how they're being handled as a concept. appreciating the answers Kyu.

Edited by Matoka
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I have a question. 

 

Let's say that you catch a female Roserade with Technician at the dungeon. When breeding that roserade you would normally get roselia from the egg that can't have technician. So will we be able to change the ability back to the hidden one when we evolve it or will we get roserade from the egg straight away? 

 

Cheers. 

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Just now, Matoka said:

At current, would you have anything you could tell us about where you will locate dungeons?

Will they be inserted into the world with new warp zones to them able to be found (presumably) at end-game content areas? e.g. a gap in trees as abundant shrine in unova is added that leads to the new dungeon
OR
will it be more akin to how North Pole was done where an NPC warps you there or something similar?

 

For GBA areas, the former. I'm not sure on NDS areas. We may need to resort to the latter there.

 

Just now, Matoka said:

I am guessing it would be easier to build the dungeons using the RSE / FRLG roms rather than Unova due to its 3D nature, does that mean that despite FRLG / RSE being optional now and Unova being the required base rom that people may need additional roms to access these dungeons? (this is incredibly minor as most people have every rom anyway, but it may still

be worth checking)

 

Yes, we're starting with GBA areas as we haven't developed map building tools for NDS areas, and it's a very difficult process to work with 3D areas on a fundamental level (polygons+textures/map vertices vs tilesets on a 2D plane). Later on, once we've developed the skills required to build more complicated areas, and when we've built the tools required for 3D, we'll be looking to make custom NDS areas.

 

10 minutes ago, Matoka said:

Thanks for responding. super hype for dungeons but there's not much info about how they're being handled as a concept. appreciating the answers Kyu.

I expect the first one to be really, really rough. It's going to take a while to figure out how to make co-op good in this game. Hope we don't disappoint too much

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Just now, Kyu said:

For GBA areas, the former. I'm not sure on NDS areas. We may need to resort to the latter there.

 

Yes, we're starting with GBA areas as we haven't developed map building tools for NDS areas, and it's a very difficult process to work with 3D areas on a fundamental level (polygons+textures/map vertices vs tilesets on a 2D plane). Later on, once we've developed the skills required to build more complicated areas, and when we've built the tools required for 3D, we'll be looking to make custom NDS areas.

 

I expect the first one to be really, really rough. It's going to take a while to figure out how to make co-op good in this game. Hope we don't disappoint too much

I look forward to it! Im curious to see how the co-op in dungeons will work, keep up the good work.

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1 minute ago, Opte said:

I have a question. 

 

Let's say that you catch a female Roserade with Technician at the dungeon. When breeding that roserade you would normally get roselia from the egg that can't have technician. So will we be able to change the ability back to the hidden one when we evolve it or will we get roserade from the egg straight away? 

 

Cheers. 

That's a very good question which I don't have the answer to.

 

The way we'd probably handle it would be either:

  • The child is created with its own HA, and when it evolves, its evolution also has its HA if applicable.
  • The child is created with a special flag which denotes that the evolution has an HA, but the child does not.

Either way, we would try to preserve the HA status across breeds.

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3 minutes ago, Kyu said:

That's a very good question which I don't have the answer to.

 

The way we'd probably handle it would be either:

  • The child is created with its own HA, and when it evolves, its evolution also has its HA if applicable.
  • The child is created with a special flag which denotes that the evolution has an HA, but the child does not.

Either way, we would try to preserve the HA status across breeds.

Again slightly off topic, I remembered I wanted to ask this, there are three hidden abilities added in gen 6 that gen 1-5 pokemon can get, is there any chance they could get the "Lifeball" "Swift Choiceband" etc treatment and be implemented?

I am referring to Protean Kecleon, Slush Rush Cubchoo / Beartic, Competitive Jigglypuff Family / Gothitelle family / Milotic.

Considering there are only three it doesn't seem to far-fetched to imagine them being added in with fake-names for the abilities and none of these seem like they would be harmful to the meta-game. assuming it's possible to add based on how "Lifeball" was done, any chance of this happening eventually do you know?

Edited by Matoka
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11 minutes ago, Opte said:

I have a question. 

 

Let's say that you catch a female Roserade with Technician at the dungeon. When breeding that roserade you would normally get roselia from the egg that can't have technician. So will we be able to change the ability back to the hidden one when we evolve it or will we get roserade from the egg straight away? 

 

Cheers. 

 

7 minutes ago, Kyu said:

That's a very good question which I don't have the answer to.

 

The way we'd probably handle it would be either:

  • The child is created with its own HA, and when it evolves, its evolution also has its HA if applicable.
  • The child is created with a special flag which denotes that the evolution has an HA, but the child does not.

Either way, we would try to preserve the HA status across breeds.

 

Would you not just have Roselia HA as the child? I believe this is the ability Leaf Guard in this case

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9 minutes ago, Matoka said:

Again slightly off topic, I remembered I wanted to ask this, there are three hidden abilities added in gen 6 that gen 1-5 pokemon can get, is there any chance they could get the "Lifeball" "Swift Choiceband" etc treatment and be implemented?

I am referring to Protean Kecleon, Slush Rush Cubchoo / Beartic, Competitive Jigglypuff Family / Gothitelle family / Milotic.

Considering there are only three it doesn't seem to far-fetched to imagine them being added in with fake-names for the abilities.

I'd prefer not to give the Life Ball treatment to Protectron, Crush Munch, and Competitor if possible. That was a really hacky way to try to deal with the overly-defensive meta when we really just needed Legendaries.

 

Backporting new abilities/typings is something which can be done, but it's too early to decide whether it's necessary. We talked about it with the Fairy typing due to continued concerns about Dragons, but it's one of those things which you can't take back, so it's a last resort.

 

4 minutes ago, Kizhaz said:

Would you not just have Roselia HA as the child? I believe this is the ability Leaf Guard in this case

Yes, that was one of the proposed solutions (HA status being an inheritable flag whereby Roselia would gain Leaf Guard, and if it were evolved again, Roserade would gain Technician.)

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Just now, Kyu said:

I'd prefer not to give the Life Ball treatment to Protectron, Crush Munch, and Competitor if possible. That was a really hacky way to try to deal with the overly-defensive meta when we really just needed Legendaries.

 

Backporting new abilities/typings is something which can be done, but it's too early to decide whether it's necessary. We talked about it with the Fairy typing due to continued concerns about Dragons, but it's one of those things which you can't take back, so it's a last resort.

So it's not planned, but it is a possibility you are able to do if you wish? as long as it's a possibility I'll hold out hope for it. Protean Kecleon is fun.
(also i'm sure you could find better names than those in the event you did ;p) either way thanks for replying thats me for today

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Just now, Matoka said:

So it's not planned, but it is a possibility you are able to do if you wish? as long as it's a possibility I'll hold out hope for it. Protean Kecleon is fun.
(also i'm sure you could find better names than those in the event you did ;p) either way thanks for replying thats me for today

Theoretically, we can do whatever we want, including adding Protozoan Kecleon. The question is how weird we're willing to get.

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10 minutes ago, Kyu said:

Theoretically, we can do whatever we want, including adding Protozoan Kecleon. The question is how weird we're willing to get.

*nod* it seems like one of the more reasonable "Homebrew" esque things you could do in the game, so I hold out hope for it eventually.

Thanks for answering my questions.

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from what I understand of all this is that my work of years of upbringing, and expensive will be completely obsolete, since my pokemon will not have HA, that is to say that my pokemon without gender, what it cost me so much to raise, like metagros, starmie , porigon, magneton, claydol, tauros, hitmonchan, hitmonlee, hitmontop, will you throw them into the landfill? Pufff, I hope that at least the increase of money, and each NPC of at least 100k per duel, since the dittos cost a lot and are not cheap.

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14 minutes ago, Walerito said:

from what I understand of all this is that my work of years of upbringing, and expensive will be completely obsolete, since my pokemon will not have HA, that is to say that my pokemon without gender, what it cost me so much to raise, like metagros, starmie , porigon, magneton, claydol, tauros, hitmonchan, hitmonlee, hitmontop, will you throw them into the landfill? Pufff, I hope that at least the increase of money, and each NPC of at least 100k per duel, since the dittos cost a lot and are not cheap.

Out of all those, Magneton and maybe Hitmonlee are the only 2 that benefit from their HA. So no all your  years of hard work are not wasted, not that they would be anyway since if you've been using them now how can they be wasted?

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41 minutes ago, Kizhaz said:

Out of all those, Magneton and maybe Hitmonlee are the only 2 that benefit from their HA. So no all your  years of hard work are not wasted, not that they would be anyway since if you've been using them now how can they be wasted?

For people who dont play ou and stick to uu/nu, a large number of our mons need to be re bred. This really hurts us more than ou players. 

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33 minutes ago, Walerito said:

at some point yes, since many of my Pokémon have HA, and bringing them back will take a long time, and selling them is not an option at this time, and then nobody will want them without HA.

 

3.png

 

Why not use them for the breeds required for obtaining a Hidden Ability?

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