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Why are Volt Switch and U-Turn fine but Baton Pass is not?


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What part makes them seem "more busted" in any way? They are damaging moves, which is kind a pro and a con because that means they can actually fail to things like protect, or a lightning rod/ground switch in for volt switch. And they don't actually pass the substitute or any boosts the way baton pass does. I don't get what you're seeing here.

 

Edit: so very ninja'd 

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16 minutes ago, Roundabout said:

serious question, can anyone explain? As far as I'm concerned the reason why it got banned was because of the sub + baton pass bullshit, but following that logic, aren't U-Turn and Volt Switch even more busted?

Because they don't allow you to setup easily to sweep.

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1 minute ago, Rigamorty said:

What part makes them seem "more busted" in any way? They are damaging moves, which is kind a pro and a con because that means they can actually fail to things like protect, or a lightning rod/ground switch in for volt switch. And they don't actually pass the substitute or any boosts the way baton pass does. I don't get what you're seeing here.

its more of a pron than a con imo 

 

5 minutes ago, redspawn said:

Because they don't allow you to setup easily to sweep.

but the reason that they gave for it getting banned was not because it was used for passing boosts, but because people used it to pass substitutes and gain momentum, and as I see it U-Turn and Volt Switch can do that more efficiently than Baton Pass

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4 minutes ago, Roundabout said:

its more of a pron than a con imo 

 

but the reason that they gave for it getting banned was not because it was used for passing boosts, but because people used it to pass substitutes and gain momentum, and as I see it U-Turn and Volt Switch can do that more efficiently than Baton Pass

and what is a setup? Passing a sub, is a way to setup pokemons, boosting is also another way. 


And no they can't, cause you risk a lot more with a u-turn than with a baton pass. Imagine me going 4 QD + sub on Volcarona(Example lol), then baton passing it to lets say hydreigon scarfed, how will you beat it?

Now imagine the scenario in which you uturn into hydreigon, and he gets completely destroyed since he had no sub protection for a safe switch, and wasn't with enough boosts to hitko near your entire team. Ofc this example is just an example and chances are it will never happen.

Edited by redspawn
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1 hour ago, Roundabout said:

its more of a pron than a con imo 

 

but the reason that they gave for it getting banned was not because it was used for passing boosts, but because people used it to pass substitutes and gain momentum, and as I see it U-Turn and Volt Switch can do that more efficiently than Baton Pass

pretty sure it was banned for being able to pass boosts + create bp chains, not just subs lol

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20 minutes ago, Toast said:

pretty sure it was banned for being able to pass boosts + create bp chains, not just subs lol

thats not what they said when they banned it, its not because of chains because they tested the baton pass clause (1 bp/team) for a while but then decided to ban it entirely

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7 minutes ago, Roundabout said:

thats not what they said when they banned it, its not because of chains because they tested the baton pass clause (1 bp/team) for a while but then decided to ban it entirely

It doesn't really matter what reason we gave when it was banned like, 4 years ago. It has STAYED banned because of its ability to do all sorts of shit, like pass boosts, create chains, pass subs, act as an unbridled momentum grabber, and most of all, force teams to run extremely niche options just to prevent from being rolled over (perish song, for example). Baton pass is absolute cancer, we don't need it around.

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I still don't even get it, what's the comparison to sub passing vs volt turn? Do you miss the part where you are passing a sub? because that's kind of a big deal. with u-turn and volt switch, sure you keep the momentum if the opponent decided to switch, but what ever comes in doesn't get a sub to hide behind if the opponent attacks. You're comparing a switch that passes boosts and sub to a switch that can do damage and possibly fail if it doesn't successfully hit, and then saying the latter is the stronger one. It would be one thing if you just brought up volt switch and u-turn saying you think they're strong, but comparing it to baton pass is a tad silly. 

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Don't mind too much about whatever reason they decide to put in the ban reasoning, that's just some flavor text that some of the TCs is tasked with as nobody else wants to write it.

At the end if it was not banned by usage it comes down to "m-muh feels" and senile telling everyone else "stop being an idiot" is the only thing that ever gets something unbanned around here.

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4 hours ago, axx said:

Don't mind too much about whatever reason they decide to put in the ban reasoning, that's just some flavor text that some of the TCs is tasked with as nobody else wants to write it.

At the end if it was not banned by usage it comes down to "m-muh feels" and senile telling everyone else "stop being an idiot" is the only thing that ever gets something unbanned around here.

There is actual debate that occurs within the Tier Council before anything gets banned. As it was pointed out @Gunthug, it forced everyone into either running Baton Pass teams (overly centralizing) or extremely niche teams to prevent (walled or stalled a significant portion of the metagame). Basically you either ran Baton Pass or you ran something to counter it. Having Baton Pass around severely stagnated the meta at the time it was banned and therefore needed to be banned.

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1 hour ago, XelaKebert said:

There is actual debate that occurs within the Tier Council before anything gets banned. As it was pointed out @Gunthug, it forced everyone into either running Baton Pass teams (overly centralizing) or extremely niche teams to prevent (walled or stalled a significant portion of the metagame). Basically you either ran Baton Pass or you ran something to counter it. Having Baton Pass around severely stagnated the meta at the time it was banned and therefore needed to be banned.

Uhm, no. This was never actually a thing. Baton Pass was never the norm in PokeMMO metagame ever. There were a few particular Baton Passers some used in their team but it never was a norm in the PokeMMO metagame back in the old days. The "either Baton Pass or Baton Pass countering niche team" is a huge hyperbole, to say the least. When ThinkNice initiated the discussion to ban Baton Pass for its uncompetitive nature, it got massive resistance. I remember that most people were confused what is even going on because no one considered it exactly overpowered and that was never what ThinkNice or any of the current Tier Council argued for. They argued for its uncompetitive nature. The whole concept of "uncompetitiveness" was completely unfamiliar for the common PokeMMO player but when it was argued that "Well, isn't this kind of bullshit and doesn't need any predictions" then some people were like "Yeah, I can see where you're coming from". But Baton Pass (unlike everything else that gets banned) wasn't banned for being overpowered at its time, not even the slightest.

 

When the current Tier Council opposes Baton Pass, I know it's simply because they've played later generations and noticed how cancerous Baton Pass can be in Smogon metas. I agree, Baton Pass has the tools to make a metagame unplayable. However, it is highly metagame related: The metagame needs both good Baton Passers and receivers for boosts for Baton Pass to be actually overpowered. There are certain generation metagames with lack of these and this makes Baton Pass be less effective in some metagames where the ban of Baton Pass wasn't found to be necessary, whereas there are some generations where Baton Pass is straight up obnoxious and it is banned from its respective generation. Basically, this is the main disagreement what I have with Tier Council about Baton Pass: They have the pictures of mind of the stupid shit Baton Pass did in for example Generation 6 and Generation 7 metagame, whereas I'm skeptical whether it needs a ban in our metagame. I guess the Tier Council just feels that even if Baton Pass isn't exactly "broken" in our environment, it's still a stupid move and brings no virtues for the competitive play and I can definitely see where they're coming from with that point of view. But stating that Baton Pass got banned / is still banned due to being "overpowered" is just simply false.

 

About the comparison to Volt Switch and U-Turn, well, they're stupid moves as well. Let's not defend them. But the thing is, banning any actual damage inducing move just seems... silly. Like not even silly but literally out of the question. Banning any damage dealing move no matter of its other effects would set a bad precedent and therefor would never be in question. Then you could argue for the ban of Fiery Dance, Ancientpower, you could see where this is going. So banning Baton Pass in no means has to draw any kind of parallel to damage dealing moves that kind of have the same effect as Baton Pass does. Therefor if the argue point is "Maybe Baton Pass isn't worth a ban" I could possibly agree but arguing that U-Turn and Volt Switch shouldn't be allowed because Baton Pass isn't would just be simply a wrong approach to this comparison. (Not saying that is what the OP states, but the comparison if A is fine why B isn't kinda implies they should be treated equally)

 

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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Prankster Tail Glow + Baton Bass volbeat is cancer

 

nty

 

However, I think (how now the meta is freshly new) you can make a test in the server them notice how the things goes on. WIth smogon baton pass clauses for gen VI + ofc

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@OrangeManiac you are spot on with the uncompetitive analysis, that's what it boils down to for me. You win or lose v baton pass in teambuilding, there's not much playing around it since the move bypasses your attempts to double switch or make predictions. 

 

We definitely disagree though on whether it needs to be tested in our unique meta, which is fine. In my opinion, I've never once seen a metagame where baton pass was even remotely competitive. To me, the brokenness of the move exists outside the realm of its surroundings - it's broken on its face (prima facie) and any test would do more harm than good, imo 

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  • 3 weeks later...
29 minutes ago, jcsouza said:

I've said that once, and I'll say it again. An invincible argument: it is allowed in the world championship, so banishing is bullshit. Just that...

10/10 argument. Regirock is NU in a different meta, here it's LC. I'm convinced, unban baton pass pls.

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6 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

10/10 argument. Regirock is NU in a different meta, here it's LC. I'm convinced, unban baton pass pls.

A meta game you created with your deranged mind and cauncil isn't a meta at all. So again get regirock in the bag and add to the already used argument: it is allowed in the world championship. Debating with you was really nice. 

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