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NU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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so guys, can i get some of your opinion about roserade in nu? that thing isn't kinda broken? as im seeing there are people who spam a modest one and that thing hurt enough clefable

also im not seeing many bronzors nowdays since there are too many and many drapions,doom and honchkrows.. so, if it's possible any suggestions? ok there is mantine it's true but what about that thing is getting usage in uu and it will go on that tier by usage? escavalier don't even think can handle it because of the hp fire...drapion it get hurted enough from gigadrain,(also there should be even a thread about tht poke) the only way im seeing it's amoongus, but dont know  if calm one can do things vs it. i hope to get some suggestions or your opinion about roserade

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16 hours ago, gbwead said:

NU will change drastically in the next usage movement. There is no point in banning anything right before everything will change.

yeah more opened doors for drapion and roserade to smash the entire nu meta with something we are losing for usage that's it what gonna change drastically, don't get why we still have to wait another month about drapion and roserade.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, DarylDixon said:

yeah more opened doors for drapion and roserade to smash the entire nu meta with something we are losing for usage that's it what gonna change drastically, don't get why we still have to wait another month about drapion and roserade.

 

 

We will wait a week, not a month. There is no sense of making the changes now and then making the changes once again due to usage, we would be playing in an odd meta for literally a week only

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28 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

We will wait a week, not a month. There is no sense of making the changes now and then making the changes once again due to usage, we would be playing in an odd meta for literally a week only

Im meaning After September tier update, not this One, so if in September we Will get the tier change, we have to wait One week in thst tier ti see things how Will go?

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  • 10 months later...
2 hours ago, epicdavenport said:

Has the TC looked into Blaziken? It's usage has been going up every season and feels like a massive power house in the tier with it's stab close combat and flare blitz. 

Golbat, Slowbro, Slowking, Steelix, Poliwrath (lol), Mantine, Seismitoad and a few others can handle it okay - not to mention aqua jet from feraligatr and to a lesser extent sharpedo.

 

Mixed set can catch people by surprise but can be dealt with easier imo.

 

I think the priority right now is Dugtrio and its abusive Arena Trap ability.

Edited by Imperial
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42 minutes ago, epicdavenport said:

I can agree with that. To a lesser extent is wobbuffet considered problematic in the tier?

Wobbuffet as annoying as it is had its ability nerfed to last for only 3 turns. Alongside that, you can play around it as it's pretty passive in its moveset (encore / destiny bond / counter / mirror coat)

 

The problem with Dugtrio is that its ability isn't nerfed, it has a very fast base speed of 120 meaning it can primarily revenge kill a lot of the offensive threats which are weak to ground (e.g. Blaziken, Drapion, Typhlosion) to name a few.

 

Alongside trapping, it can enable other Pokemon in the team to set up by running Memento, meaning that if the opposing team isn't prepared then it allows a free Shell Smash for example and potential sweep.

 

Pachima and Zymogen described in further detail as to why Dugtrio is unhealthy in the tier, but it's the fact that it forces players to risk how they play or lose a Pokemon to Dugtrio each time which makes it a problem.

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It's time.

 

I would like to discuss a potential Dugtrio ban from NU under uber support characteristics.

 

There's a specific reason why Dugtrio was banned to ubers in several different metagames which rolled through PokeMMO. It's signature ability, Arena Trap, which allows it to trap and effectively remove multiple mons in the NU tier.

 

Since I'm a lazy bum and I took part in multiple Dugtrio discussions over the course of many years, I'm gonna go ahead and just re-post what I already wrote long ago.

 

 

1. The centralization

 

Metagame with Dugtrio is weird, least to say. CB Blazikens are almost never seen anymore, same for specs Houndoom. Any CB locked thunderpunch, specs locked Volt Switch/ TBolt is usually as good as dead with this thing around. It limits the teambuilding a lot, preventing pokes that naturally would hold CB from doing this. Teams are specifically built to avoid being trapped by that. For a long time I thought it's the necessary evil due to it's ability to remove the some special walls with sub reversal but now the CB (and even scarf!) set became much more popular and started to take out multiple mons with it's STAB EQ and coverage moves. To make things even worse, Dugtrio has access to Memento which makes it possible to switch in, set it's rocks and then cripple a mon with memento to allow a setup sweeper to just win the game.

 

2. The speed

 

Dugtrio is in an awesome speed tier, allowing it to outspeed whole NU except some scarf users and speed ties with Sceptile. This makes it's job easier than ever- it's usually bulky enough to tank a weak attack from a wall (for example, Nidoqueen) or even something like HP ice from Manectric and just KO the mon back. Literally every non-flying or levitate poke takes chunks from STAB EQ/ Stone Edge/ Sucker Punch if it's a choice-locked Rotom or something like this.

 

3. Tier without Dugtrio

 

We will finally be able to use pokes like CB Blaziken, Specs Doom, maybe Magneton and hell knows how many more. A lot of sets will finally see the daylight.

 

4. Diglett...?

Spoiler

ca7e34fdd6735d0c8cd9478569ffef0e.png

 

All in all, I'm all up in favour to get rid of this thing under support characteristics.

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  • 6 months later...

Any thoughts on Blaziken? 

This is just my 2 cents, but it has been the pinnacle of Nu meta for several months, with the metagame revolving around it so much that otherwise rather obscure pokemons rose in usage (such as quagsire, altaria and seismitoad, which rapresent in my opinion the best checks to blaziken)

Its moveset became so diverse that it can now perform brilliantly several different roles, from a set up sweeper, to scout with u turn, it can use a mixed set with great effectivity, not to mention the choice version which is arguably the most problematic

It has a great double stab type wise with cc and fire charge which make switch ins extremely hard, not to mention the thunder punch coverage

-Mantine

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 220-260 (127.9 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-Golbat

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 87-103 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 87-103 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-Slowking

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 102-120 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 102-120 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-poliwrath

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 109-129 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The main ways to stop blaziken look to be defensive gligar and altaria, which can take more than 2 hits from most versions

 

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 146-172 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

not that it is common, but a tech moveset is easily appliable to blazi thanks to its SPA stat

 

Overall, i don't think blaziken is necesseraly broken as dugtrio was, i think it's centralized the meta and with no ha in sight and a stale meta, removing this threat could shake rather significantly the meta 

Also, blaziken little brother Emboar would still fulfil blaziken niche in a less efficient way

these are just my 2 cents, i am not the best player out there but idk maybe someone agrees

 

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1 hour ago, richardbenzina said:

Any thoughts on Blaziken? 

This is just my 2 cents, but it has been the pinnacle of Nu meta for several months, with the metagame revolving around it so much that otherwise rather obscure pokemons rose in usage (such as quagsire, altaria and seismitoad, which rapresent in my opinion the best checks to blaziken)

Its moveset became so diverse that it can now perform brilliantly several different roles, from a set up sweeper, to scout with u turn, it can use a mixed set with great effectivity, not to mention the choice version which is arguably the most problematic

It has a great double stab type wise with cc and fire charge which make switch ins extremely hard, not to mention the thunder punch coverage

-Mantine

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 220-260 (127.9 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-Golbat

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 87-103 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 87-103 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-Slowking

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 102-120 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 102-120 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-poliwrath

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 109-129 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The main ways to stop blaziken look to be defensive gligar and altaria, which can take more than 2 hits from most versions

 

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 146-172 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

not that it is common, but a tech moveset is easily appliable to blazi thanks to its SPA stat

 

Overall, i don't think blaziken is necesseraly broken as dugtrio was, i think it's centralized the meta and with no ha in sight and a stale meta, removing this threat could shake rather significantly the meta 

Also, blaziken little brother Emboar would still fulfil blaziken niche in a less efficient way

these are just my 2 cents, i am not the best player out there but idk maybe someone agrees

 

Whilst I agree with the fact that Blaziken is centralising, and its popularity increased mainly for the addition of U-Turn, there are many points you've mentioned here which are incorrect:

 

1 hour ago, richardbenzina said:

Any thoughts on Blaziken? 

This is just my 2 cents, but it has been the pinnacle of Nu meta for several months, with the metagame revolving around it so much that otherwise rather obscure pokemons rose in usage (such as quagsire, altaria and seismitoad, which rapresent in my opinion the best checks to blaziken)

Some more examples of Pokemon which can deal with Blaziken well, although conscious that some of these are niche/memes and are too passive for the tier inviting pressure/momentum after a U-Turn:

  • Quagsire
  • Gligar
  • Alomomola
  • Altaria
  • Mantine (depending on thunder punch / stone edge but can self-recover, although more fragile)
  • Golbat (depending on thunder punch / stone edge but can self-recover)
  • Slowking (does take a chunk from U-Turn but can self-recover)
  • Seismitoad
  • Sandslash
  • Steelix (does take a chunk from CC)
  • Weezing (very niche and not very good in the tier but an option)

 

Blaziken is also vulnerable to priority attacks including Aqua Jet from Feraligatr.

 

1 hour ago, richardbenzina said:

Its moveset became so diverse that it can now perform brilliantly several different roles, from a set up sweeper, to scout with u turn, it can use a mixed set with great effectivity, not to mention the choice version which is arguably the most problematic

Although you're correct that it can perform great on a physical, special and mixed scale, I've not seen anybody set up with Blaziken - if you can provide any recent evidence on this that would be great. 

 

1 hour ago, richardbenzina said:

It has a great double stab type wise with cc and fire charge which make switch ins extremely hard, not to mention the thunder punch coverage

-Mantine

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 220-260 (127.9 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-Golbat

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 87-103 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 87-103 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-Slowking

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 102-120 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 102-120 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-poliwrath

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 109-129 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These statistics are irrelevant as Choice Scarf is the most common item to pressure many Pokemon who are fast themselves (e.g. Ambipom, Houndoom, Drapion, Zoroark)

 

Life Orb is the other common set used due to its capabilities to play physical and special attacks, however you lose that crucial speed and put yourself at risk of Pokemon higher (e.g. Gallade alongside the above Pokemon as examples)

 

Hardly anybody uses Choice Band - it may work in some situations but it's not worth it.

 

1 hour ago, richardbenzina said:

Overall, i don't think blaziken is necesseraly broken as dugtrio was, i think it's centralized the meta and with no ha in sight and a stale meta, removing this threat could shake rather significantly the meta 

Also, blaziken little brother Emboar would still fulfil blaziken niche in a less efficient way

these are just my 2 cents, i am not the best player out there but idk maybe someone agrees

 

Blaziken is strong and if Hidden Abilities were ever implemented there's no denying that its usage in OU would increase - however as annoying and strong as this Pokemon is I wouldn't say it's broken for the tier.

 

What I will say is that NU has become pretty stale as many teams have to work around Blaziken, so I will agree that it's a centralising mon.

Edited by Imperial
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37 minutes ago, Imperial said:

 

  • Quagsire
  • Gligar
  • Alomomola
  • Altaria
  • Mantine (depending on thunder punch / stone edge but can self-recover, although more fragile)
  • Golbat (depending on thunder punch / stone edge but can self-recover)
  • Slowking (does take a chunk from U-Turn but can self-recover)
  • Seismitoad
  • Sandslash
  • Steelix (does take a chunk from CC)
  • Weezing (very niche and not very good in the tier but an option)

 

 

You can't consider this as stable checks, mixed/special blaziken destroys mons like Quagsire, Seismitoad, Sandslash and Steelix:

Only assuming Aura sphere (without HP involved, and 0 spA EV invest) :

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 90-107 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 79-95 (37.2 - 44.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 103-122 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 120-143 (65.9 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

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45 minutes ago, Imperial said:

Whilst I agree with the fact that Blaziken is centralising, and its popularity increased mainly for the addition of U-Turn, there are many points you've mentioned here which are incorrect:

 

Some more examples of Pokemon which can deal with Blaziken well, although conscious that some of these are niche/memes and are too passive for the tier inviting pressure/momentum after a U-Turn:

  • Quagsire
  • Gligar
  • Alomomola
  • Altaria
  • Mantine (depending on thunder punch / stone edge but can self-recover, although more fragile)
  • Golbat (depending on thunder punch / stone edge but can self-recover)
  • Slowking (does take a chunk from U-Turn but can self-recover)
  • Seismitoad
  • Sandslash
  • Steelix (does take a chunk from CC)
  • Weezing (very niche and not very good in the tier but an option)

 

Blaziken is also vulnerable to priority attacks including Aqua Jet from Feraligatr.

 

Although you're correct that it can perform great on a physical, special and mixed scale, I've not seen anybody set up with Blaziken - if you can provide any recent evidence on this that would be great. 

 

These statistics are irrelevant as Choice Scarf is the most common item to pressure many Pokemon who are fast themselves (e.g. Ambipom, Houndoom, Drapion, Zoroark)

 

Life Orb is the other common set used due to its capabilities to play physical and special attacks, however you lose that crucial speed and put yourself at risk of Pokemon higher (e.g. Gallade alongside the above Pokemon as examples)

 

Hardly anybody uses Choice Band - it may work in some situations but it's not worth it.

 

Blaziken is strong and if Hidden Abilities were ever implemented there's no denying that its usage in OU would increase - however as annoying and strong as this Pokemon is I wouldn't say it's broken for the tier.

 

What I will say is that NU has become pretty stale as many teams have to work around Blaziken, so I will agree that it's a centralising mon.

Granted that i've seen no Blaziken without t punch, i don't really see water types without ground as secondary type handling blaziken particularly well

The same applies to the likes of steelix which unless there is 1 v 1 play match just get 2hit ko

As of the feraligatr argument, the same applies to any other revenge killer, even trick espeon or sash aerodactyl could deal with blazi the way you mean 

The problem is, blazi can switch without any fear even of pursuit, only suffers neutral damage from rocks and even if it stays, a revenge kill means it dealt the damage you needed

Overall on Blazi you can choose between speed or offensive powers while not having both of them at once

This may look like a bad thing, but it's part lf the rrason it is so strong, it's absolutely unpredictable and can either surprisingly outspeed your revenge killer or 2hko your wall 

Ultimately i agree with you that blazi, while being probably the strongest NU pokemon, is not inherently broken, is heavily centralizing 

It may not fall in the hard core of uber criteria, but it's at least in the perimeter of being broken

Lifting it up to UU for even just a season could be well deserved and could even let us experience a better and more diverse meta

 

Edited by richardbenzina
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