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NU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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On 1/27/2020 at 3:57 PM, gbwead said:

Thoughts on Mismagius Nasty Plot?

it would be easier to handle with skunk around, but i think we have the dark types we need; we got escavalier; we got gigalith; we got kanga; braviary eats if no tbolt, which id assume to be rather rare, because wow and taunt seem infinetely better; we got ferroseed to soften it up or finish off a +2 missy; we got throh; we got stout if giga falls; and while 105 isnt a bad base speed theres mons that outspeed it.

test it imo.
 

34 minutes ago, Tawla said:

Ban sand stream and roserade first pls 

^^

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15 minutes ago, TJXD said:

I think Mismagius needs to be tested as well. 

Nasty plot Mismagius dual attack isn't the most optimal set but it can definitely wreak havoc in the tier.

 

 

you mean in this NU meta with 456224 dark types, escavalier, spdef steelix, and etc etc?

tldr; no

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1 hour ago, pachima said:

you mean in this NU meta with 456224 dark types, escavalier, spdef steelix, and etc etc?

tldr; no

I got swept by one okay, let me go 2014 on it and justify a test. 

all in all, fair point there's a ton of hazers and viable steel types you right.

 

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I can manage to loose to 5 drapions in a roll. No matter how, Scope Lens Drapion is an ambulant coin flipper with high risk and high reward. Its all but reliable and struggles vs escavalier and steelix 

 

I really would like people stopping relly on a 50% crit chance to win games

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On 6/7/2020 at 5:06 PM, Risadex said:

I can manage to loose to 5 drapions in a roll. No matter how, Scope Lens Drapion is an ambulant coin flipper with high risk and high reward. Its all but reliable and struggles vs escavalier and steelix 

 

I really would like people stopping relly on a 50% crit chance to win games

This thread died too early. Drapion is honestly a pretty nice pokemon,  not  unhealthy and it is a prime check to other NU threats which are way more obnoxious (yeah, i am thinking of spiritomb). I just don't see why we banned king's rock, accuracy items and even abilities, while allowing scope lens to exist.

It's an item that makes sense in OU, since it is used in a combo with focus energy mostly by kingdra and salamence, making crits a 100% chance removing all rng factors. Focus energy + scope lenses is just a set up combo in OU.

But in NU it just adds some unnecessary rng, it is abused by drapion and honchcrow, which are absolutely good enough without it, and it became a greedy item which will just lead to players being angry

Let's just ban scope lenses in NU, for the same reason  king's rock, sand veil, snow clock and accuracy reducing items are banned: we don't need more rng

Edited by richardbenzina
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2 hours ago, richardbenzina said:

This thread died too early. Drapion is honestly a pretty nice pokemon,  not  unhealthy and it is a prime check to other NU threats which are way more obnoxious (yeah, i am thinking of spiritomb). I just don't see why we banned king's rock, accuracy items and even abilities, while allowing scope lens to exist.

It's an item that makes sense in OU, since it is used in a combo with focus energy mostly by kingdra and salamence, making crits a 100% chance removing all rng factors. Focus energy + scope lenses is just a set up combo in OU.

But in NU it just adds some unnecessary rng, it is abused by drapion and honchcrow, which are absolutely good enough without it, and it became a greedy item which will just lead to players being angry

Let's just ban scope lenses in NU, for the same reason  king's rock, sand veil, snow clock and accuracy reducing items are banned: we don't need more rng

There are viable mons which can use it properly too in NU. Vaporeon can Baton pass Focus energy to any scope lens mon and make it 100% crit, tough its a 2 turn setup, but its effective. There is also super lucky Honchcrow.

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2 hours ago, Risadex said:

There are viable mons which can use it properly too in NU. Vaporeon can Baton pass Focus energy to any scope lens mon and make it 100% crit, tough its a 2 turn setup, but its effective. There is also super lucky Honchcrow

I mean, probablu super luck crow is the most relevant scope lens user in NU without abusing it. Even then, the fact that drapion with lenses is unfair remains. A complex ban would be the wisest thing, and i don't think anyone would be upset

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I'm not really going to make a complex argument, but i'd just like to share a thought 

Spiritomb

No one has talked about spiritomb in Nu since sinnoh but i don't really think it's good for the NU meta

A few weeks ago i thought machamp would have been so incredible, but i must shamefully admit i was very very wrong

I don't mind waiting for the update, but once that occurs things are will only get worst -i presume-, rapid spin becoming stronger and close combat becoming more common spiritomb will only get stronger. But as i said i just want to share this thought since spiri is already unhealthy imho, being the second most common mon in Nu

1) it's similar to sableye but, although lacks recovery, has way way more bulk, both psysical and special, a very good offensive power, the perfect movepool, and can more than viably run rest

2) it's extremely unpredictable having at least  three standard sets that work (in my experience)(banded, cmind and physically defensive). Which means that, if you don't know spiritomb's set, you either send in a special attacker risking a calm mind; or you send in a physical attacker, risking a burn or a foul play. Not to mention the trick abusers that you can sometimes find.

3) This is the most important point, it restricts so much team building. Spiritomb is not that strong by itself. It's just so efficient, lacking any weakness. 

Psychic types are absolutely unviable right now. There is not a single psychic type that can even stay in a single turn vs spiritomb, that, again, is such a common pokemon. Thanks to two great forms of priority, 2 incredible immunities (fighting and psychic),  foul play and even pursuit, i litterally can't see why i should run espeon, gallade, slowking or any other psychic mon. 

And spiritomb made fighting types so weaker, thanks to wow, rocky helmet and pressure (except machamp which is very strong), being able to get a free switch in on most fighters only fearing freeze hax. 

Then again, this comment is already probably too long, but it's just an observation on a pokemon that is unpredictable, easily snowballs and restricts team building. 

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On 7/13/2020 at 4:39 PM, richardbenzina said:

I'm not really going to make a complex argument, but i'd just like to share a thought 

Spiritomb

No one has talked about spiritomb in Nu since sinnoh but i don't really think it's good for the NU meta

A few weeks ago i thought machamp would have been so incredible, but i must shamefully admit i was very very wrong

I don't mind waiting for the update, but once that occurs things are will only get worst -i presume-, rapid spin becoming stronger and close combat becoming more common spiritomb will only get stronger. But as i said i just want to share this thought since spiri is already unhealthy imho, being the second most common mon in Nu

1) it's similar to sableye but, although lacks recovery, has way way more bulk, both psysical and special, a very good offensive power, the perfect movepool, and can more than viably run rest

2) it's extremely unpredictable having at least  three standard sets that work (in my experience)(banded, cmind and physically defensive). Which means that, if you don't know spiritomb's set, you either send in a special attacker risking a calm mind; or you send in a physical attacker, risking a burn or a foul play. Not to mention the trick abusers that you can sometimes find.

3) This is the most important point, it restricts so much team building. Spiritomb is not that strong by itself. It's just so efficient, lacking any weakness. 

Psychic types are absolutely unviable right now. There is not a single psychic type that can even stay in a single turn vs spiritomb, that, again, is such a common pokemon. Thanks to two great forms of priority, 2 incredible immunities (fighting and psychic),  foul play and even pursuit, i litterally can't see why i should run espeon, gallade, slowking or any other psychic mon. 

And spiritomb made fighting types so weaker, thanks to wow, rocky helmet and pressure (except machamp which is very strong), being able to get a free switch in on most fighters only fearing freeze hax. 

Then again, this comment is already probably too long, but it's just an observation on a pokemon that is unpredictable, easily snowballs and restricts team building. 

I agree completely. Like you said, due to Spiritomb's innate ability to counter basically of them completely freely, it makes a HUGE typing (Gallade, Garde, Espeon, etc.) effectively useless. What's the point in running into, knowing whatever you set you think of is completely countered by one Pokemon that literally doesn't need to do anything but exist. Next comes the issue of how damn good at everything this Pokemon is. Amazing typing, especially considering how many normal types there are, immunity to fighting, probably top 3 most common attacking types in the entire metagame, and like we both said, psychic. It is absolutely imperative you build a team with this Pokemon in mind or else, you're screwed in literally every way; you have a good normal type, lets say Ambipom, for example, is now effectively useless due to his typing. So already we have a very common Pokemon effectively nullified by this Pokemon. Now countering a Pokemon is healthy and needed for a good competitive scene, but the amount of things this damn Pokemon counters is frankly ridiculous. Just off the top of my head, Gallade (basically all variants), Espeon (effectively setup fodder), Ambipom (stab moves don't matter if the Pokemon is immune, and low damage), Braviary (both stabs are either tanked or is immune to), Gardevoir (all variants, specifically choice and sub + 3 attacks), Swellow (like Braviary, stabs are either tanked or is immune to) and Machamp to some degree. I'll quickly speak about Machamp; the fact that this damn four armed freak has so many sets and coverage is the only thing that's stopping him from getting hard walled by Spiri. That's not even talking about what set the Spiritomb is running. Basically, I don't want to keep blabbering on; this Pokemon is a HUGE restriction on team building in NU and should be dealt with. I know it's new and exciting but so are plenty of much healthier Pokemon that got introduced in generation 4. Due to how good Spiri's support moves (wow, pursuit to an extent, taunt) and typing + unpredictability, I think this Pokemon either needs a hard nerf or be moved to UU. It's frankly ridiculous.

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On 8/4/2020 at 11:16 AM, Zymogen said:

I know it's early, but what are people's opinions on Blastoise so far?

A little bit too oppressive. Shell Smash Water Spout is the set I've seen the most, basically making it a worse Dracovish. Turn one you use Water Spout on any poor non-water resistant and do dumb amounts of damage, making Water Absorb a must (I know this is a stretch saying this one case makes him oppressive, but still). You're either having to run Water Absorb Pokemon like Quagsire, Vaporeon or Lapras, or carrying something that can stop the water spouts with double resistances. Shell Smash forces you to run haze or some phasing move like Roar, moves which are pretty common overall, making it bearable. I still think it's borderline broken with the sets it can run and how many damn variants you have to look out for, much like Spiritomb but too a lesser extent (as in, Blastoise doesn't nullify an entire type simply by existing). 

But yeah, what Eric said.

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2 hours ago, inneedoffriends said:

A little bit too oppressive. Shell Smash Water Spout is the set I've seen the most, basically making it a worse Dracovish. Turn one you use Water Spout on any poor non-water resistant and do dumb amounts of damage, making Water Absorb a must (I know this is a stretch saying this one case makes him oppressive, but still). You're either having to run Water Absorb Pokemon like Quagsire, Vaporeon or Lapras, or carrying something that can stop the water spouts with double resistances. Shell Smash forces you to run haze or some phasing move like Roar, moves which are pretty common overall, making it bearable. I still think it's borderline broken with the sets it can run and how many damn variants you have to look out for, much like Spiritomb but too a lesser extent (as in, Blastoise doesn't nullify an entire type simply by existing). 

But yeah, what Eric said.

*Ahem* please bear with me while I invoke my inner Havsha

I would actually argue that Water Spout is one of its worse sets because it's very difficult to pull off a Shell Smash without taking at least some damage. In fact, one of Blastoise's best qualities is the ability to take hits while it sets up due to its high defensive stats of 79 HP/100 Def/105 SpDef. Right now the most common set I've seen is Surf/Ice Beam/HP Electric/Shell Smash - with this set its main checks are bulky grass types like Venusaur, Roselia, Roserade and Whimsicott, and other bulky SpDef walls like Clefable, Throh, Lickilicky and Slowking. However, Blastoise also has access to coverage moves such as Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse which are able to handle the Normal types and Slowking respectively; however I think that Ice Beam and HP Electric are too important to drop for either.

 

SS Blastoise typically runs Life Orb or White Herb. I personally think that White Herb is the best item on this set as it affords it more opportunities to set up, provides decent-ish longevity and makes it difficult to revenge kill with priority moves:

 

Spoiler

 

  • 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 37-45 (23.8 - 29%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 36-43 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 52-62 (33.5 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 56-68 (36.1 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 68-82 (43.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ Atk Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise on a critical hit: 96-114 (61.9 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise on a critical hit: 100-118 (64.5 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Guts Swellow Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 40-48 (25.8 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
  • 252+ Atk Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 52-63 (33.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • 252+ Atk Spiritomb Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 31-37 (20 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

 

Moreover, with White Herb, Modest Blastoise actually beats SpDef Roserade and Roselia after 1 turn of Stealth Rocks chip. Lickilicky is 3HKO'd by Modest Blastoise provided there are no hazards on the field, however there is a chance to 2HKO with 1 turn of Stealth Rocks; but Lickilicky can also phase Blastoise out with Dragon Tail or damage it with Power Whip. Calm Clefable is able to tank 2 Timid Surfs, however unless it is a Wish/Prot/Toxic set with priority elsewhere in the team, it does not necessarily pressure Blastoise enough to prevent it from setting up another Shell Smash to go +4 in its face; additionally there is a chance to 2HKO Calm Clefable with +2 Modest Blastoise after Leftovers recovery. Throh has a low chance to be 2HKO'd by Modest Blastoise, however it only 3HKO's the White Herb variant with Storm Throw. Granted, Throh has access to Circle Throw, but imo that's kinda gimmicky. Calm Venusaur beats Timid, and has a chance to beat Modest 1v1 with Stealth Rocks and an Overgrow-boosted Giga Drain after taking an Ice Beam. Whimsicott naturally is the best check as it has access to priority encore which stops Blastoise in its tracks, however it does not have access to very reliable recovery and is susceptible to being pressured by Ice Beam and/or hazards. Slowking counters the HP Electric set, however it struggles vs Dark Pulse and is generally quite a pressured Pokemon since physical Dark types are currently so prevalent in the tier.

 

 

Spoiler

 

Roselia:

  • Modest
    • +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 94-112 (59.8 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 0 SpA Roselia Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 84-98 (54.1 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (26.7 - 31.2% recovered)
  • Timid
    • +2 252 SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 88-104 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Roserade:

  • Modest
    • +2 252 SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Roserade: 110-130 (65.8 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
    • 0 SpA Roserade Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 102-120 (65.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Timid
    • 0 SpA Roserade Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 102-120 (65.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Venusaur:

  • Modest
    • +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 124-146 (66.3 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
    • 0 SpA Overgrow Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 122-146 (78.7 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • Timid
    • +2 252 SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 112-132 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Lickilicky:

  • Modest
    • +2 252 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 87-103 (40.2 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • +2 252 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 87-103 (40.2 - 47.6%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • Timid
    • +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 94-112 (43.5 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 94-112 (43.5 - 51.8%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 0 Atk Lickilicky Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 80-96 (51.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Clefable:

  • Modest
    • +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 99-117 (49 - 57.9%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • Timid
    • +2 252 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 90-106 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Throh:

  • Modest
    • +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 102-121 (44.9 - 53.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 102-121 (44.9 - 53.3%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • Timid
    • +2 252 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 93-111 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 0 Atk Mold Breaker Throh Storm Throw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise on a critical hit: 52-63 (33.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Whimsicott:

  • Modest
    • 252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Whimsicott: 74-88 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • 252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Whimsicott: 74-88 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • Timid
    • 252 SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Whimsicott: 68-82 (40.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • 252 SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Whimsicott: 68-82 (40.7 - 49.1%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Slowking:

  • Modest
    • +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 78-92 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    • +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 102-122 (50.4 - 60.3%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • Timid
    • +2 252 SpA Blastoise Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 70-84 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- 76.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • +2 252 SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 94-112 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

 

 

Additionally, Timid Blastoise is fast enough to outspeed scarfed Jolly/Timid base 120 speed Pokemon, which means that revenge killing by means of scarfers is very limited. The caveat to this, though, is that Timid Blastoise misses out on a couple of 2HKO's that Modest is able to pull off. In short I am in two minds about Blastoise at the moment, because White Herb offers more bulk for less power; and Life Orb offers more power but less bulk and longevity. Having said all this, I think I am leaning towards it being too powerful due to the lack of solid defensive checks, its ability to reliably tank priority moves, and the lack of scarf users that are fast enough (and strong enough for that matter) to revenge kill it. 

 

XD

Edited by Zymogen
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