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NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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4 hours ago, soyhector said:

1) Ok, tell me 3 good Gallade counters.

1- Sableye

2- Charizard

3- Slowking

Just for the sake of it, I can also name 3 untiered mons that counter non negative used gallade sets.

4- Leafeon

5-Musharna

6- Exeggutor

Edited by pachima

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5 hours ago, pachima said:

1- Sableye

2- Charizard

3- Slowking

Just for the sake of it, I can also name 3 untiered mons that counter non negative used gallade sets.

4- Leafeon

5-Musharna

6- Exeggutor

I consider "counter" pokemons that can switches in safely and can kill the opponent.

Also I said Sableye and Slowking were counters, the idea was that razimove mention another 3.

  • Charizard is not a good switch in against Gallade.
  • Leafeon:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Leafeon: 298-351 (89.2 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

  • Musharna:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 94-112 (42.5 - 50.6%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. (And Close Combat hits a bit harder here, you can use 1 Shadow Sneak and then a Close Combat to have 100% 2HKO)

 

0 SpA Musharna Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 67-81 (46.8 - 56.6%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO

  • Exeguttor:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 94-112 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

0 SpA Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 78-93 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

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8 hours ago, razimove said:

Amazing? Id argue against amazing, usable is the right word.

 

Sableye n slowking counter. But legit are they the only answer you have to him? Not that I played much recently, but I never had problems with gallade, pressure him offensively. Is it hard to switch in, on a wall breaker? Big news.

While we're at it, why not bring back wobbufet? Lmao

 

Glaceon is slow as a brick, struggles with most of the meta, Froslass is a fun suicide lead that struggles severely vs faster leads, not to mention other suicides leads i.e. archeops, also he's not going to spinblock the main spinner of the tier lmfao, blastoise tears him a new one. The only proper ice type in the NU tier is Vanilluxe. 

 

To go back to the topic in hands,

 

TL;DR; I vote for a test ban on druddi, I feel like he deserves a test ban, see how the meta shifts. He can apply an insane amount of pressure and there's little answer to him.

I told you to name 3 Gallade counters. I didnt tell you to give bad arguments about Froslass, Glaceon or Lapras.

And please if you want to discuss with me do it respecfully. That " ??? Have you taken a look through the tier?" and "hard to switch in, on a wall breaker? Big news" and some others of your comments were rude. It looks like you think you are the person who knows most about PVP.

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3 hours ago, soyhector said:

I consider "counter" pokemons that can switches in safely and can kill the opponent.

Also I said Sableye and Slowking were counters, the idea was that razimove mention another 3.

  • Charizard is not a good switch in against Gallade.
  • Leafeon:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Leafeon: 298-351 (89.2 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

  • Musharna:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 94-112 (42.5 - 50.6%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. (And Close Combat hits a bit harder here, you can use 1 Shadow Sneak and then a Close Combat to have 100% 2HKO)

 

0 SpA Musharna Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 67-81 (46.8 - 56.6%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO

  • Exeguttor:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 94-112 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

0 SpA Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 78-93 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Ignore my posts until we face each other :)

Sorry for everything, gallade is op, and leafeon isnt a counter.

Edited by pachima

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4 hours ago, soyhector said:

ome others of your comments were rude. It looks like you think you are the person who knows most about PVP.

I dont know the most, definitely far from it, you just know the least, or pretend to sometimes.

Pachima went through the trouble to properly give you some answers, once again, they wont fully counter, consider them more as viable checks. May I remind you, how the golbat set change when gallade became of more usage.

 

4 hours ago, soyhector said:

I didnt tell you to give bad arguments about Froslass, Glaceon or Lapras.

bad argument? xd

 

4 hours ago, soyhector said:

Charizard is not a good switch in against Gallade.

Once again, wall breaker etc etc. Slowking isnt a good switch either if he packs leaf blade. Nor is sableye if by some miracle he packs toxic on the switch in, there's just no safe answer to everything, name me 3 mamoswine counters in the UU tier, or even 2, since I only really see bronzong as the counter definition and even that lacks a self recovery move so if hard chipped, mamoswine just tears you a new hole. They're made hard to wall. And once again, this isn't a discussion about gallade, but about druddigon, find motives why you're against banning him. You suggest that gallade will become strong, something he already is, you say uturn becomes viable? something it already is, and something you're still able to punish hard with proper gameplay. Also if you really dislike him, why not make a test ban discussion? find valid arguments and start it.

Edited by razimove

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1 hour ago, razimove said:

I dont know the most, definitely far from it, you just know the least, or pretend to sometimes.

Pachima went through the trouble to properly give you some answers, once again, they wont fully counter, consider them more as viable checks. May I remind you, how the golbat set change when gallade became of more usage.

 

bad argument? xd

 

Once again, wall breaker etc etc. Slowking isnt a good switch either if he packs leaf blade. Nor is sableye if by some miracle he packs toxic on the switch in, there's just no safe answer to everything, name me 3 mamoswine counters in the UU tier, or even 2, since I only really see bronzong as the counter definition and even that lacks a self recovery move so if hard chipped, mamoswine just tears you a new hole. They're made hard to wall. And once again, this isn't a discussion about gallade, but about druddigon, find motives why you're against banning him. You suggest that gallade will become strong, something he already is, you say uturn becomes viable? something it already is, and something you're still able to punish hard with proper gameplay. Also if you really dislike him, why not make a test ban discussion? find valid arguments and start it.

I think we all know this.

Yes, you only said personal opinions non based on relevant calcs.

You made the discovery of the century. Look my calcs, are about the most common Gallade build, like there are more % usage pokes also there are more % usage sets.

We are talking about Gallade in NU lol. Why Mamoswine is relevant here?

This is the "NU tier discussion request thread", it's not only to talk about Druddigon. Anyways you started this discussion saying "Gallade has lots of counters, look better the pokedex"

Never said I'm against banning Druddigon, I said that in my opinion It doesn't deserve a ban. And I said "the consequences of banning would be overexploitation of U-turn teams and Gallade could sweep easily"

What? lol. I didn't say I dislike Gallade.

 

 

 

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You can't knock Soy for speculating about what the meta would look like after a druddigon ban - to me, the ONLY ban characteristic he could fit under is Unhealthy, and that requires you to make arguments about how the meta would look without Drudd in it.

 

Personally I don't see how gallade would be affected by his removal, as I don't think drudd is really discouraging U-turn right now and some posts seem to confirm that. However, speculating about a meta post-ban is really, really hard to do. There are a lot of butterfly-wing consequences that happen over time, which are really hard to theorymon. Therefore, if enough momentum builds for drudd being unhealthy, I think the only solution would be a suspect test.

 

Take this with a grain of salt from an inactive player. However, after some fun discussion on discord today while annoying everyone in the PSL group, I've decided to take an interest in drudd and spec some higher level NU matches. Will report back

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On 11/28/2019 at 8:15 AM, gbwead said:

What do you guys think of the current state of NU? I personally think Druddigon and Durant are quite uncompetitive. Druddigon has absolutely no counter play, there is no way to prevent rocks or a glare para; rapid spinners take very high dmg from spinning on rocky helmet + rough skin and all defoggers (except for emolga that can't roost in front of eq) are weak to glare. Durant hits so hard while being so fast. I don't think any of the mons, that are currently being used to deal with Durant, have access to instant recovery moves. We are stuck in a chaotic metagame where everyone tries to paralyse each other in order to stay faster than threats that can't be managed defensively. I'm not sure what could or should be done about it, but I believe Druddigon and/or Durant are very problematic right now.

Doesn't taunt prevent rocks or a glare para? I agree that rapid spinners take high damage from rocky helmet and rough skin, which is why it's in their interest to attack first before spinning.

 

As the prevailing NU champion, here is my take on it:

If Druddigon is running RH, it's not going to last forever, especially if you can toxic it. If druddigon tries to dragon tail you, you can switch in your own rocky helmet user to rack up the damage on it.  Glare is a bit tough to play around, but it's not the end of the world if something gets para'd, especially if it's something slow as Steelix. Hell, being on the receiving end of a glare is super useful if you're wall like Slowking because that means no more getting toxic'd.

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33 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Doesn't taunt prevent rocks or a glare para? I agree that rapid spinners take high damage from rocky helmet and rough skin, which is why it's in their interest to attack first before spinning.

 

As the prevailing NU champion, here is my take on it:

If Druddigon is running RH, it's not going to last forever, especially if you can toxic it. If druddigon tries to dragon tail you, you can switch in your own rocky helmet user to rack up the damage on it.  Glare is a bit tough to play around, but it's not the end of the world if something gets para'd, especially if it's something slow as Steelix. Hell, being on the receiving end of a glare is super useful if you're wall like Slowking because that means no more getting toxic'd.

The problem right now is that the only viable playstyle in NU right now is hyper offense. Sweep before your opponent sweeps you. Duels don't last very long in NU for that reason. In this meta, having a pokemon like Druddigon setting up rocks almost guaranteed unless you run taunt on all your mons is just too good. Sure, you can send your own rocky helmet user on the Dragon Tail, but Dragon Tail will still hurt you and 2 pokemons will get hit by the rocks. Slowking getting paralysed is good late game, but it still won't be able to set up in front of Dragon Tail Druddigon that will gladly die after damaging your team, keeping rocks on the field and then capitalizing on the paralysis to set up/sweep. 

 

For instance, Gallade was previously mentioned as a big threat that is difficult to counter. Druddigon really doesn't stop Gallade at all. It can lose to the sub + bulk up set since Dragon Tail doesn't have a great chance of breaking the substitute and just gets OHKO by most SD sets. However, Druddigon will remove a lot of good revenge killers for Gallade with a simple Glare. People don't want to counter Gallade with walls, because walls in this hyper offense meta make you lose momentum and end up as baits for huge threats. Most people choose to revenge kill Gallade and that's where Druddigon is so problematic imo. 

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4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The problem right now is that the only viable playstyle in NU right now is hyper offense. Sweep before your opponent sweeps you. Duels don't last very long in NU for that reason. In this meta, having a pokemon like Druddigon setting up rocks almost guaranteed unless you run taunt on all your mons is just too good. Sure, you can send your own rocky helmet user on the Dragon Tail, but Dragon Tail will still hurt you and 2 pokemons will get hit by the rocks. Slowking getting paralysed is good late game, but it still won't be able to set up in front of Dragon Tail Druddigon that will gladly die after damaging your team, keeping rocks on the field and then capitalizing on the paralysis to set up/sweep. 

 

For instance, Gallade was previously mentioned as a big threat that is difficult to counter. Druddigon really doesn't stop Gallade at all. It can lose to the sub + bulk up set since Dragon Tail doesn't have a great chance of breaking the substitute and just gets OHKO by most SD sets. However, Druddigon will remove a lot of good revenge killers for Gallade with a simple Glare. People don't want to counter Gallade with walls, because walls in this hyper offense meta make you lose momentum and end up as baits for huge threats. Most people choose to revenge kill Gallade and that's where Druddigon is so problematic imo. 

I'm genuinely curious which fast/frail gallade revenge killers are being cold-switched in on druddi

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2 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I'm genuinely curious which fast/frail gallade revenge killers are being cold-switched in on druddi

When rocks are on the field and druddigon starts spamming dragon tail, it comes a point where you accept the paralysis just to get rid of Druddigon. 

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2 hours ago, gbwead said:

The problem right now is that the only viable playstyle in NU right now is hyper offense. Sweep before your opponent sweeps you. Duels don't last very long in NU for that reason. In this meta, having a pokemon like Druddigon setting up rocks almost guaranteed unless you run taunt on all your mons is just too good.

I haven't touched NU in 4 months or so, and I haven't kept up with the tier changes since then, so I'm not sure of what's different now. What kind of playstyle do you see Druddigon fit itself into nowadays? To be fair, I think expecting any pokemon to not be able to set up rocks is too much to ask, since that's precisely the role of any rocker. So, I'm curious as to how this is an issue that is specific to Druddigon, but not other stealth rock users. 

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

Sure, you can send your own rocky helmet user on the Dragon Tail, but Dragon Tail will still hurt you and 2 pokemons will get hit by the rocks. Slowking getting paralysed is good late game, but it still won't be able to set up in front of Dragon Tail Druddigon that will gladly die after damaging your team, keeping rocks on the field and then capitalizing on the paralysis to set up/sweep. 

I genuinely feel that a good NU team should not have more than one pokemon taking 25% on rocks, which means that the switching in pokemon should only be taking 6.25% to 12.5%, which isn't all that big of a deal.  Dragon Tail surely hurts, but if you're running an offensive team, your moves should also be capable of at least 3hko-ing Druddigon.  Which means the first turn you get to freely attack Drud as it sets up rocks, and the second turn you attack Drud while it either glares or dragon tails you.  Again, if you're running an offensive team, Drud should be at 30% to 40% by now.  Since Dragon Tail has low priority, you should be still be able to attack first, even if you're slower due to paralysis, unless you get paralyzed the turn while attacking.  If you''re using a special attacker, or physical attacker with rock / ground coverage, you won't trigger rocky helmet + rough skin.

 

The scenario you're portraying to me is that the druddigon user is going to pressure the opponent's team for an extended period of time.  However, that will only happen if the pokemon on the opposite side constantly switches out vs druddigon instead of attacking it straight up front.  This really should not be a problem with an offensive team, because otherwise it seems to me that the fault is with the teambuilding. 

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

For instance, Gallade was previously mentioned as a big threat that is difficult to counter. Druddigon really doesn't stop Gallade at all. It can lose to the sub + bulk up set since Dragon Tail doesn't have a great chance of breaking the substitute and just gets OHKO by most SD sets. However, Druddigon will remove a lot of good revenge killers for Gallade with a simple Glare. People don't want to counter Gallade with walls, because walls in this hyper offense meta make you lose momentum and end up as baits for huge threats. Most people choose to revenge kill Gallade and that's where Druddigon is so problematic imo. 

If you have one designated pokemon in your party as the glare absorber and rocky helmet user, then Drud should not be able to paralyze other members of your team.  A lot of this boils down to winning the 50/50 correctly, between Drudd using glare / dragon tail.  Because if it glares into the already paralyzed mon, you regain momentum.  If it dragon tails into a pokemon that is attacking it, you still don't lose momentum.  That should still leave you with plenty of options to beat Gallade provided you're running an offensive team.  To re-state what I said earlier, if you're running an offensive team, Drud should only get 2-3 opportunities to spam either glare / dragon tail. 

 

If there are any replays available of Drud doing extensive damage, let me know. 

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NikhilR's posts pretty much sum up how Druddigon doesn't fall into being uncompetitive.

 

We should move on and discuss about Durant instead, I think it has the characteristic of an offensive uber.

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Fine, I guess I'll start then.

 

Oh Durant, my sweet busted Durant. Did you guys know that ants can carry 10-50 times their body weight? And if they're made of steel, they can hit 10-50 times harder than a Landorus-Therian! Ok, now that we got that cringey joke out of the way...

 

DzL51vY.pngTier: NU*

This little ant has been terrorizing NU for the past couple months. Unsurprisingly, nobody has really bothered making a case for its ban, seeing as it's easier abusing it in this MMO environment (what a shocker, I know). Thankfully I don't play much anymore and just spectate from the sidelines, (this is what being in TC must feel like), so I get to be completely unbiased!

 

So why is this worth a ban?

Enormous Versatility and Coverage - Durant is one of NU's top offensive threats right now, with 109 base Attack and Speed and a great Bug/Steel typing, capable of performing different roles in a team, from wallbreaking to revenge killing to outright sweeping. This thing can run a banded set, scarf set, hone claws set, agility set, you name it. It has access to great STAB moves in Iron Head (30% flinch chance) and X-Scissor as well as a variety of other moves like Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Thunder Fang, Crunch and Superpower. Sure it can't run all these moves, but it doesn't need to either. Iron Head is a must, so is Superpower and the 4th move if running Hone Claws/Agility can be X-Scissor/Stone Edge.

Hustle - "This Pokemon's Attack is multiplied by 1.5 and the accuracy of its physical attacks is multiplied by 0.8." As if 109 base attack wasn't enough, you trade a little bit of accuracy for even more power. The best part? Hone Claws fixes the drawback that Hustle carries and gives you even more power! Is it hard to setup? Nope! Durant forces so many switches that it is usually pretty easy setting up Hone Claws. Or your opponent just sacks whatever is on the field in fear of a setup and gets murdered by one of Durant's moves instead.

Usage - "But Life, the latest usage shows Durant at 17,49%. No way that can be problematic." Well perhaps, but let's look at its usage evolution.

 

June 2019 - 9.13%

July 2019 - 9.17%

August 2019 - 8.00%

September 2019 - 11.08%

October 2019 - 7.96%

November 2019 - 13.38%

December 2019 - 17.49%

 

In 6 months, it's usage almost doubled. And in my opinion, it can only go up from here. People realized what a menace Durant is and are slowly starting to abuse it.

Limits teambuilding - Honestly, don't even bother playing defensive teams when things like this are running around freely. Durant has ZERO reliable defensive answers, literally name me one and I'll tell you why it's trash. The way to play against this thing is offensively. Sadly it comes down to packing a scarfer that can revenge kill it or just something above 109 speed (there's not a lot of these). Stuff like Relaxed HP Fire Poliwrath and Impish Emboar are at best shaky checks, but both lack good recovery and need to stay healthy the entire time, or else Durant eats them with a CB/+1 orb Superpower. Offensive answers include HP Fire Espeon/Sceptile, Choice Scarf Charizard/Emboar/Houndoom/Braviary/etc, sadly none of them can switch in vs Durant, so unless you run all of these in a team (lol), there's a very high chance that Durant will claim a bunch of lives for itself.

 

I usually like to compare our MMO's NU meta to Smogon's BW RU meta, with some obvious mechanic changes but none of them really matter when comparing the impact of Durant in both. Now think for a second, Durant is S rank in a meta that has Moltres, Magneton, Intimidate Qwilfish and god knows what else. Our NU has none of those, especially Magneton.

 

@gbwead happy now?

Edited by LifeStyleNORE

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I feel the need to talk about sand and rose in NU. While rose was pretty obvious beforehand i think, stout and giga really surprised me.

 

c98479d920770916edf9cab9adeae970.png

 

Reasonably bulky and not that easy to revenge kill if you dont run Hitmonchan, especially if you consider that barely any choice scarf user being able to outspeed this under sand thanks to sand rush. You can find mons that outspeed it being scarfed, but Espeon seems to be the only one that regularly sees/saw usage in that regard. So yeah, Stouland outspeeds pretty much our whole offensive NU metagame under sand.

It sure has defensive checks that are very viable, but those have to make sure they maintain their hp, because otherwise super power can hurt those as well. Theres mons that can handle Stout, which arent named Steelix, Golurk, Rhydon, but those get their leftovers denied by sand.

 

I dont think Stoutland is the real issue though, but the fact that we cant contest sand with anything but Vanilluxe. Without sand Stouts a rather useless Poke, but when sand is set it stays up most of the times, which leads us to:

320555b69bed3986ba5836da7abc7c2d.png

 

The real culprit.

Setting uncontested weather and being fairly bulky under sand, while hitting decently hard and setting up rocks. There really isnt much else to say about Gigalith - Sand Stream.

Spoiler
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 76-90 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 76-91 (39.5 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not a contester.

 

Now there is ways to handle both of these i think, but you always see those two in tandem with:

307802729d8948495736d5445ba1dcc9.png

 

As if having uncontested weather wasnt enough theres a perfect partner avilable right now, Roserade.

Looking at its stats it seems well rounded, tho its defense in conjunction with its hp are rather lackluster. What it lacks in defense it makes up for in special defense however and that insane SpA stat, while sitting at 90 base speed. Rose is a threat; imo THE threat right now.

 

Theres plenty of sets it can run; theres hazard laying defensive Roses with access to Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, T-Spikes and regular Spikes. Nothing too crazy and rather easy to manage unless sleep rolls screw you over i guess.


And then theres offensive Roserade... Looking at NU that 90 base speed is nothing too crazy, but that base SpA is quite something. Not only does it have the stats to threaten opposing mons, but it also has the pool to do so; HP Fire, Extracensory, Leaf Storm/Giga Drain, Sludgebomb with two being Stab. Now while Life Orb is viable and i thought it would be the go to Rose item it limits Roses survivability and makes it more prone to being pursuit trapped. The real fun begins when you face Roserade holding a Choice Specs or a Choice Scarf. Having to switch into Roserade is a difficult thing to do and while it has defensive checks, those are severely hindered by Stealth Rock support and if they dont just drop to two attacks they lose a hefty amount of hp and either spam recovery or are preserved as sacks for another Rose assault, unless they are called bronzor and do...well nothing.

We sadly dont have offensive checks that are able to switch into Roserade safely due to its coverage, so revenge killing it seems like the best approach of handling a Roserade. While its base speed is nothing special it still allows Rose to act as a hard hitting Choice Scarfer that outspeeds the whole unboosted/unscarfed metagame. Sneasel and Houndoom are both pressuring Roserade (252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 118-139 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO), but can fall short if mispredicting and even Kanga cant reliably finish off a Roserade with a combination of Fake Out and Sucker Punch, tho thats everything but reliable to begin with even if the calcs were better. On top of that Roserade resists Aqua Jet and Mach punch.

__
Why am i typing this? Playing NU rn is frustrating, because Roserade is already busted enough and i think it was obvious af that Rose would end up being too much to handle, but since Gigalith dropped as well we also gotta consider sand teams when building - sand is a thing now, Rose is a thing now; oftentimes you cant have sand without Rose even, tho if Rose got the boot Venu would probably just replace it.

 

As mentioned above, theres no way to compete with Sand Stream, since we only have Vanilluxe, which dropped in viability, because of Gigalith thus sand is pretty centralizing right now. Complex banning Sand Stream on Gigalith or putting Gigalith to BL would solve this. We would have Hippopotas left, but its way easier to take advantage off than a bulky mon like Gigalith that shuts down plenty of switch ins by having a reasonable offensive presence.


I dont really know where to put Roserade. Reading the tiering etiquette it doesnt fit offensive uber characteristics since it cant set up and just sweep, but it literally has no switch ins that arent complete garbage and lose momentum; and it has the speed to serve as a hard hitting Choice Scarfer.

 

Spoiler

"Things that restrict the metagame in ways which are unfavorable for an evolving competitive metagame An unhealthy pokemon is one which makes the metagame worse with its presence, by stagnating the metagame in a large, negative way. Most pokemon which are overpowered or uncompetitive are typically also unhealthy, but they are not entirely mutually exclusive. In general, the only time that the unhealthiness of a pokemon is evaluated is when a pokemon seems to be problematic, but simply does not fit in either of the other two categories for Ubers.

Sounds like this could be applied.

Edited by NOREButler

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Not gonna write a big paragraph, I'm just going to say that since the last tier movements I have played shit tons of nu matches and came to a realization that giga+stout combo is horribly good in nu and so easy to abuse. The solution in my eyes is to complex ban sandstream/ban giga.

Now, roserade. Roserade is just outstanding in nu. Specs set has the tools to demolish any type of team but life orb sets are great as well. It is super unhealthy for the tier as now nu is starting to look life ou/uu because now almost every team pretty much has to run a very limited group of mons so Rose in this case could be countered.

 

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I'm fine with Roserade getting banned considering how overwhelming it has been.

 

However, there is no way I would personally ever consider a Gigalith or Sandstream ban. In order for Stoutland, a pokemon without any recovery, to have any chance at wallbreaking let alone sweeping, it needs to often be locked and be supported by usually Gigalith that also has no recovery. CB mons are designed to wallbreak. When Stoutland holds a Choice Band, it will need to predict in order to break through walls and even with the right predictions it will struggle breaking through stuff like Sableye, Hippopotas or Metang anyways.

 

Gigalith/Stoutland aren't unhealthy or broken imo, they are just capitalizing on the unhealthy state that NU has been in for months now. They are not the cause of NU problems and banning Gigalith might make NU slightly better, but doesn't solve anything overall or long term. The only viable playstyle in NU is offense. As long as that remains the case, it's pretty normal for Stoutland to destroy everything in its path since the only things in its path are offense oriented mons frail or bulky tanks lacking recovery.

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Roserade is definitely busted. Specs set hits super hard and has excellent coverage. It does need to predict a bit if you play it early game, but late game it's just spamming Sludge Bombs against everything. Don't think Sand in itself is broken, but Sand Rush is. I'd rather see [Sand Rush + Stoutland] banned than touching Gigalith, because Gigalith and sand in itself are completely fine. If Stoutland can only have Intimidate as its ability, it will feel way more balanced.

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26 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Gigalith/Stoutland aren't unhealthy or broken imo, they are just capitalizing on the unhealthy state that NU has been in for months now. They are not the cause of NU problems and banning Gigalith might make NU slightly better, but doesn't solve anything overall or long term. The only viable playstyle in NU is offense. As long as that remains the case, it's pretty normal for Stoutland to destroy everything in its path since the only things in its path are offense oriented mons frail or bulky tanks lacking recovery.

No clue what they would look like without Roserade around, maybe itd get better, because the mons that sponge Stout would still get cucked by Venu, but Venu doesnt have the same offensive presence Rose has and it cant even set up spikes.

I agree on defensive playstyles being rather optimistic in NU rn, but thats mainly due to bad tiering. I dont feel like neither the tc nor the people actually playing NU care about a healthy NU metagame, so im not gonna put the whole blame on you guys this time around.

 

Durant getting banned was overdue and when it finally happened, Roserade and Gigalith got NU´d. We never had time to see what happens without Ant in NU, because the next offensive behemoth was dropped. You´re not to blame for Rose not being UU by usage anymore, but for the sake of testing stuff, though Rose was obviously busted and i still have a hard time imagining you didnt just wanna see the world burn, we lost another month of NU getting where it could be.

 

Ant getting banned from NU meant that defensive grass mons could see usage again, because they wouldnt end up being set up bait, pressure was taken off of defensive psychic types, like mush and slowking and to me that seemed really cool, because quite some room for change in the tier and then Rose dropped and all of that was nullified. Yes, NU is in a somewaht shitty state, but Rose following Ant would and i really hope will be a gigantic first step to create a fun and healthy NU environment.

 

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