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Munya

NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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54 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Ban togekiss

Agility Dunsparce* 
Charge beam + Agility + Air slash + Water Pulse/Ice beam/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower

Scary if played right xD
Specially since everyone expects the Headbutt set if any :D 

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6 hours ago, DrButler said:

how does the tier being unstable, which is already argueable in itself, influence if a mons viable or not? there will always be good and bad mons based on the pool of mons available to use. if you look for a spinner that packs a punch and has stab priority there is no alternative to tyrogue evos. chan is the best at what it is supposed to do in our NU environment. i mean, hit me up with some wisdom; but how can chan be unviable in our current NU, based on what? cause the tier is shaky? cause some people run sableye for whatever reason?

 

the way i understand viability, maybe thats where we differ, idk. the likelihood of a mon doing good based on the likelihood to meet certain mons or certain builds in a match.

 

sure, you might run into sableye (lol), dusknoir or bold missy and chan does nothing for a solid period of the match, but the likelihood of meeting any of these is fairly low to begin with and when you dont face them chan can do fantastic stuff, so how can i not say that chan is a very viable mon? based on what?

 

i already said it twice; i was ranting after getting pooped on by a fkn biba in TT. tangelas not very viable rn. if biba rises in usage it will be - changes the whole dynamic. tangela/tangrowth would become very viable checks, cause theyd actually do something with biba usage, i see that.

If the tier is unstable, the meta is changing constantly, the threats are changing constantly and therefore what is viable is changing constantly. I have not said chan is unviable. I said that it's pretty baseless to say pokemon A is viable unlike pokemon B because we lack information to make those calls. 

 

From experience, when a pokemon from a lower tiers gets banned because its checks/counters are deemed unhealthy, it rarely works out: the tier gets rocked every month, so what is unhealthy at one point might not be later and no one plays NU long enough to know if the possible counters are viable or not. In gen 3, Fearow was banned from NU because Solrock was deemed unviable and yet it became one of the most used pokemons in the months that followed (even before the stat changes it was able to reach top 5 in usage). Also, in gen 3, Scizor was banned from UU because with Houndoom in the tier, the only counter that was perceived viable was Slowking, but when it got unbanned later suddenly Altaria and Nidoqueen were top counters.

 

If your main argument for the Bibarel ban- even if you were joking - is that all its checks and counters that people throw at you are in your eyes unviable, it doesn't mean much - to me at least. 

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

If the tier is unstable, the meta is changing constantly, the threats are changing constantly and therefore what is viable is changing constantly. I have not said chan is unviable. I said that it's pretty baseless to say pokemon A is viable unlike pokemon B because we lack information to make those calls. 

a meta is always changing, so threats are constantly changing and viability is constantly changing. what you say can be said about every single tier. cause mons can be unviable tomorrow doesnt mean that its far fetched to say its viable today, based on the information we have today. the pool of mons in NU is the smallest, so what kind of information do we lack? when a mon is the only mon to fulfill a certain roll or is the best at fulfilling it, what kind of information do we need to say its viable, when in that set pool there is nothing that can do a better job?

 

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

and no one plays NU long enough to know if the possible counters are viable or not.

according to your first point that isnt possible anyways.

 

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

If your main argument for the Bibarel ban- even if you were joking - is that all its checks and counters that people throw at you are in your eyes unviable, it doesn't mean much - to me at least.  

a) even in my initial ranting post i didnt use the word ban; i rechecked my posts and i didnt use the word ban once

b) smh you make it sound like i havent agreed on a single mon people suggested;

c) i also dont know where you got the idea that it would be relevant how much you care, cause neither of your assumptions is true.

 

bs paragraph smh.

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1 hour ago, DrButler said:

a meta is always changing, so threats are constantly changing and viability is constantly changing. what you say can be said about every single tier. cause mons can be unviable tomorrow doesnt mean that its far fetched to say its viable today, based on the information we have today. the pool of mons in NU is the smallest, so what kind of information do we lack? when a mon is the only mon to fulfill a certain roll or is the best at fulfilling it, what kind of information do we need to say its viable, when in that set pool there is nothing that can do a better job?

The changes are never to that extent. OU is evolving because the meta is steady and new pokemons/mechanics aren't introduced every month in the tier. That's not the case in NU. The current usage right now displays Honchrow as the most used pokemon and it has been gone for over a month already. Does OU lose it's top threat every month? Before the re/introduction of Wobbuffet/Dugtrio and Zoruark, OU was the same for months.

What's your basis to say things like " Tangela isn't viable rn" or "Sableye (lol)"? The few matches you had in CC with people that probably played even less NU than you? I mean cmon. I get that viability is a subjective topic, but for NU it's bs. Delibird is the only Fake Out user immune to Ground. Ninjask is the fastest revenge killer.  Emboar is the only fire mon that can use Scald. You can find something unique about probably any pokemon and create a role that it can fufill, but that doesn't mean anything in a tier where you don't even have enough information to know what are the roles that need to be fulfilled. 

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49 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The changes are never to that extent. OU is evolving because the meta is steady and new pokemons/mechanics aren't introduced every month in the tier. That's not the case in NU. The current usage right now displays Honchrow as the most used pokemon and it has been gone for over a month already. Does OU lose it's top threat every month? Before the re/introduction of Wobbuffet/Dugtrio and Zoruark, OU was the same for months.

i can hardly disagree with anything here.

 

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

What's your basis to say things like " Tangela isn't viable rn" or "Sableye (lol)"? The few matches you had in CC with people that probably played even less NU than you?

i watch NU wc matches and a shitton replays of other people having deep runs as well. i guess the fact that people spam mixed and coil eel, zard, flareon, emboar, swellow, golbat, nidoqueen and toxic on fkn everything is just my imagination and "all" those water set up sweepers (fera, biba and samu?) are really relevant in our current meta. and since i got literally 0 fucking clue about NU anyways the two mons i deemed banworthy got banned after a long period of complaining. how lucky I am!

 

why would i dislike sableye, hmmm? a base stat total of 380, literally no ability, and all it does is spamming wow/tox, recover, foulplay, x. but it checks gallade and hitmonchan. if i was into fucking people up by running 6 walls in round ones, id consider sableye as well, but i decided to try to leave stall behind (it was one game, pachi), which doesnt seem like a bad idea considering the tiers to wide to cover everything. maybe you can change my mind with an interesting balanced build including sableye tho.

 

22 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Delibird is the only Fake Out user immune to Ground.

ye and the amount of times i look for a fo user that is immune to ground and a fire mon using scald equals the amount of times i look for a spinner.

 

26 minutes ago, gbwead said:

but that doesn't mean anything in a tier where you don't even have enough information to know what are the roles that need to be fulfilled.  

idk what kind of information ur missing if you dont know that ull need rapid spin or defog. and if you cant tell which spinners are more likely to be succesful rn its probably you that bases stuff solely on the CCs he played.

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On 3/1/2019 at 7:07 AM, DrButler said:

spam mixed and coil eel, zard, flareon, emboar, swellow, golbat, nidoqueen and toxic on fkn everything

not like you can really play alot of NU in pokemmo so i dont, but the times i do, it really do be like that xdddd, especially the part about toxic lmao

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Blaziken seems to suffer from 4MSS in order to beat most of NU Walls. It also has average speed and is therefore easy to Revenge Kill with several offensive threats like Charizard. Blaziken is probably capable of breaking through anything depending on it's set, so it might come down to building strong defensive cores or offensive builds that prevents it from setting up.

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Thinking to start play the NU tier. What are the 'top' NU mons right now? Can't really find a viability ranking or something unfortunately.

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What do you guys think of the current state of NU? I personally think Druddigon and Durant are quite uncompetitive. Druddigon has absolutely no counter play, there is no way to prevent rocks or a glare para; rapid spinners take very high dmg from spinning on rocky helmet + rough skin and all defoggers (except for emolga that can't roost in front of eq) are weak to glare. Durant hits so hard while being so fast. I don't think any of the mons, that are currently being used to deal with Durant, have access to instant recovery moves. We are stuck in a chaotic metagame where everyone tries to paralyse each other in order to stay faster than threats that can't be managed defensively. I'm not sure what could or should be done about it, but I believe Druddigon and/or Durant are very problematic right now.

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emm.. Actually Alteria is not afraid Druddigon. But i still think Druddigon may be too threatening for most nu mons. And for Durant, i think it's ok. There are still Many ways to deal with such as hidenpower fire Espeon.

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On 11/28/2019 at 12:15 PM, gbwead said:

What do you guys think of the current state of NU? I personally think Druddigon and Durant are quite uncompetitive. Druddigon has absolutely no counter play, there is no way to prevent rocks or a glare para; rapid spinners take very high dmg from spinning on rocky helmet + rough skin and all defoggers (except for emolga that can't roost in front of eq) are weak to glare. Durant hits so hard while being so fast. I don't think any of the mons, that are currently being used to deal with Durant, have access to instant recovery moves. We are stuck in a chaotic metagame where everyone tries to paralyse each other in order to stay faster than threats that can't be managed defensively. I'm not sure what could or should be done about it, but I believe Druddigon and/or Durant are very problematic right now.

I believe druddigon is the real issue here. Glare + dtail put the whole game into rng factor, and as you said, there is not really a sure counterplay besides praying to Arceus. 

Also, you cant literally go wrong in using druddigon in such a tier.

Durant Ive got mixed feelings. I too feel it is too fast and powerful, however, hustle makes it a double edged sword if you cant set up hone claws.

Imo, the issue about durant is the 20% flinch iron head provides, but that is way too situational to warrant a ban.

I am in for a ban on druddigon tho.

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On 12/2/2019 at 2:35 AM, VHisc said:

emm.. Actually Alteria is not afraid Druddigon. But i still think Druddigon may be too threatening for most nu mons. And for Durant, i think it's ok. There are still Many ways to deal with such as hidenpower fire Espeon.

5 hours ago, Laz said:

I don't like Druddigon, please ban it. /s

6 hours ago, pachima said:

I believe druddigon is the real issue here. Glare + dtail put the whole game into rng factor, and as you said, there is not really a sure counterplay besides praying to Arceus. 

Also, you cant literally go wrong in using druddigon in such a tier.

Durant Ive got mixed feelings. I too feel it is too fast and powerful, however, hustle makes it a double edged sword if you cant set up hone claws.

Imo, the issue about durant is the 20% flinch iron head provides, but that is way too situational to warrant a ban.

I am in for a ban on druddigon tho.

According to someone I won't name, you guys don't think Druddigon is a problem or banworthy and you're all just joking around. If you want Druddigon to get test banned, please say so with simple words, so that someone I won't name does not get confused.

 

Edited by gbwead

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Playing against Druddigon can be tricky sometimes, I dont think it's ban-worthy thought, Druddigon has a 48 base speed and gets ohkoed by stab special ice moves.

Durant on the other hand, even if it requires good predictions and a free turn to setup, only few relevant mons can outspeed it ( Espeon mainly ), physical priority moves such as aqua jet, sucker punch and shadow sneak fail to deal enough damage to revenge kill it. Having said that I'm leaning towards a test ban on Durant.

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Ok, allow me to type something that I am pretty sure half the TC is going to joke about:

1- The comment above me is irrelevant because druddigon is not even a good gallade counter. There are others that do that job much better.

2- Laz´s comment about ohkoing druddigon is irrelevant too because the only ice mon that is used and ohkos druddigon is vanilluxe. Also, all taunt does is delaying the match for  a few more turns, since  dragon tail simply phases the taunter away, damaging in the process, and introducing a rng factor on the switch afterwards.

2- Coupled with dragon tail, druddigon has access to glare, which pretty much paralyzes every single pokémon that can threaten druddigon. There are no good electric type mons in the tier, and the few that there are have no business battling with a druddigon either (which is the main advantage druddigon has over all other glare users). 

3- These 2 moves combined turn matches into a rng fest, and unlike snorlax, that was banned in gen3 due to body slam´s uncompetitive paralyzis, Glare + dragon tail has 0 counterplay (Snorlax had ghost types) besides praying you are not fully paralyzed OR you are phased into an advantageous position.

In sum, Druddigon isn´t exactly broken as in OP, or whatever of the sort, but possesses a rather uncompetitive set that removes every kind of skill involved when playing with/against one.

I vote to at least testban it.

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7 hours ago, pachima said:

Ok, allow me to type something that I am pretty sure half the TC is going to joke about:

1- The comment above me is irrelevant because druddigon is not even a good gallade counter. There are others that do that job much better.

2- Laz´s comment about ohkoing druddigon is irrelevant too because the only ice mon that is used and ohkos druddigon is vanilluxe. Also, all taunt does is delaying the match for  a few more turns, since  dragon tail simply phases the taunter away, damaging in the process, and introducing a rng factor on the switch afterwards.

2- Coupled with dragon tail, druddigon has access to glare, which pretty much paralyzes every single pokémon that can threaten druddigon. There are no good electric type mons in the tier, and the few that there are have no business battling with a druddigon either (which is the main advantage druddigon has over all other glare users). 

3- These 2 moves combined turn matches into a rng fest, and unlike snorlax, that was banned in gen3 due to body slam´s uncompetitive paralyzis, Glare + dragon tail has 0 counterplay (Snorlax had ghost types) besides praying you are not fully paralyzed OR you are phased into an advantageous position.

In sum, Druddigon isn´t exactly broken as in OP, or whatever of the sort, but possesses a rather uncompetitive set that removes every kind of skill involved when playing with/against one.

I vote to at least testban it.

1- I never said Druddigon was a Gallade counter. But Druddigon helps to deal against Gallade, specially against the bulk up Gallade build. And its not like there are "others" that do a better job, only Sableye or maybe Slowing Foul play.

2- Froslass, Glaceon and Lapras could ohkoing Druddigon.

 

I don't consider Druddigon unhealthy for NU, it could be a bit annoying but it's not broken. Tier councils shouldn't ban pokemons only because they are annoying for some people.

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sorry, i thought you just want us to discuss it.

Druddigon is OP, but i dont know if it will make more Pokemons become OP after we ban it.

So I think we can testban Druddigon to see what will happen.

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2 hours ago, soyhector said:

1- I never said Druddigon was a Gallade counter. But Druddigon helps to deal against Gallade, specially against the bulk up Gallade build. And its not like there are "others" that do a better job, only Sableye or maybe Slowing Foul play.

2- Froslass, Glaceon and Lapras could ohkoing Druddigon.

 

I don't consider Druddigon unhealthy for NU, it could be a bit annoying but it's not broken. Tier councils shouldn't ban pokemons only because they are annoying for some people.

1) ??? Have you taken a look through the tier? Gallade is really good we all can agree with that, but it has a plendora of offensive checks, not to mention some nice walls and some more niche builds, tl;dr; druddi wouldnt stop gallade either, nor influence his usage, you can still punish uturn even with druddi out of the tier.

 

2) mons with negative usage shouldnt be an argument.

 

Its not because its annoying but because how strong his overall kit is. With the only big flaw being the lack of speed. Sure some ice stabs can ohko, but when they enter, they're either allowing free rocks on the field, getting glare'd or being slapped with dtail or even fire punch if people still run it. The pressure he applies in the match is pretty big, not to mention like you said how hard it can punish uturn.

1 hour ago, VHisc said:

sorry, i thought you just want us to discuss it.

Druddigon is OP, but i dont know if it will make more Pokemons become OP after we ban it.

So I think we can testban Druddigon to see what will happen.

Well this is exactly why they testban things, to see how the meta change when XYZ is out of the meta.

Edited by razimove

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3 minutes ago, razimove said:

1) ??? Have you taken a look through the tier? 

 

2) mons with negative usage shouldnt be an argument.

 

Its not because its annoying but because how strong his overall kit is. With the only big flaw being the lack of speed. Sure some ice stabs can ohko, but when they enter, they're either allowing free rocks on the field, getting glare'd or being slapped with dtail or even fire punch if people still run it. The pressure he applies in the match is pretty big, not to mention like you said how hard it can punish uturn.

Well this is exactly why they testban things, to see how the meta change when XYZ is out of the meta.

1) Ok, tell me 3 good Gallade counters.

 

2) ?? Froslass is amazing suicide lead and spinblocker, Lapras substitute an excelent wallbreaker and Glaceon hits like a demon. I use them and i saw other players using them.

 

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2 hours ago, soyhector said:

1) Ok, tell me 3 good Gallade counters.

 

2) ?? Froslass is amazing suicide lead and spinblocker, Lapras substitute an excelent wallbreaker and Glaceon hits like a demon. I use them and i saw other players using them.

 

Amazing? Id argue against amazing, usable is the right word.

 

Sableye n slowking counter. But legit are they the only answer you have to him? Not that I played much recently, but I never had problems with gallade, pressure him offensively. Is it hard to switch in, on a wall breaker? Big news.

While we're at it, why not bring back wobbufet? Lmao

 

Glaceon is slow as a brick, struggles with most of the meta, Froslass is a fun suicide lead that struggles severely vs faster leads, not to mention other suicides leads i.e. archeops, also he's not going to spinblock the main spinner of the tier lmfao, blastoise tears him a new one. The only proper ice type in the NU tier is Vanilluxe. 

 

To go back to the topic in hands,

 

TL;DR; I vote for a test ban on druddi, I feel like he deserves a test ban, see how the meta shifts. He can apply an insane amount of pressure and there's little answer to him.

Edited by razimove

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Here i have an opinion from Hedgewitch

He says we should only ban the pokemons which make us have to consider how to fight against them when we from our team, such as Wobbuffet in nu, Misdreavus in lc.

Druddigon seems not strong like these.

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