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NU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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2 hours ago, razimove said:

literally anyone that doens't 1hit. Memento allows him to setup on almost anything.

Scyther is not in a great spot, and has no priority moves. Going sp.def or def on a scyther is everything but smart mate, you're sacrificing his great base speed, for some extra defense when that wont matters if you lose your defog, you'll struggle. Plus steelix exists which kinda makes scyther tough to use.

 

+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Bibarel Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 133-156 (75.1 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 133-156 (75.1 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

it's not even a check in most cases to be fair.

Who said I didn’t invest in speed? 252 Def 252 Speed. With Evolite! Should have linked my Scyther I guess lol

And no he doesn’t get to go setup freely after memento. He would lose minimum 30% HP.. now couple that with an attack and life orb recoil.. he is dead.

 

Think before you spout stuff like this, it bothers me when people just say no when they don’t actually think the full situation thoroughly.

 

Also you gotta understand win cons and how they work.

Linoone is amazing, no? But steelix walls it hard and kicks its ass, no?

what do you do then after team preview? You don’t use your win con until the threats are handled.

 

Man, people that insist that a mon should be able to 1v6 to be of valid use

 

I’m a memento player, to think you can just memento into sweep is outright preposterous. 

And if your opponent played his Bib right and got in a position to make it a proper win con,

that’s on you, not because his mon is too strong.

 

Heeeeh

Edited by MHkaserz
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34 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

Linoone is amazing, no? But steelix walls it hard and kicks its ass, no?

I mean, he doens't wall it that hard, kills it sure, but doens't really wall hard, seed bomb probably deals like 40-50%, to lazy to calc, and +6 dig if you want to run very gimmicky sets, probably 1shots.

With that said, I won't discuss much further as you don't seem to have enough experience, as shown previously I think in togekiss discussion and now here.

But just to conclude. Tell me, 3 monsters able to succesfully wall him, or enter on him. Name me all the mons you can think of, able to revenge kill him too please. And while you're at it, do the calcs on your scyther please.

+4 252+ Atk Bibarel Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Scyther: 154-183 (106.2 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+4 252+ Atk Bibarel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 150-176 (82.4 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


now lets consider memento into the equation, steelix side.
-2 0 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bibarel: 37-45 (19.8 - 24.1%) -- possible 5HKO

ah yeah man, I call it worth, if I lose 70% hp (2 turns if you want to do the math) but get my win condition set up in a position to win the game. Keep in mind, that isn't even with lefties but a berry or lefties, or wtv you feel like running.

 

Spoiler

Also, there's a pretty cool memento user, named diglett that runs in the shadows of NU, that paired with scarf or sash, and his lovely ability can allow you to setup on low threat monsters, and there's little to nothing you can do, but cry. Same concept applies to linoone ofc, if you want to use it as an example.

 

Edited by razimove
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1 hour ago, razimove said:

I mean, he doens't wall it that hard, kills it sure, but doens't really wall hard, seed bomb probably deals like 40-50%, to lazy to calc, and +6 dig if you want to run very gimmicky sets, probably 1shots.

With that said, I won't discuss much further as you don't seem to have enough experience, as shown previously I think in togekiss discussion and now here.

But just to conclude. Tell me, 3 monsters able to succesfully wall him, or enter on him. Name me all the mons you can think of, able to revenge kill him too please. And while you're at it, do the calcs on your scyther please.

+4 252+ Atk Bibarel Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Scyther: 154-183 (106.2 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+4 252+ Atk Bibarel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 150-176 (82.4 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


now lets consider memento into the equation, steelix side.
-2 0 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bibarel: 37-45 (19.8 - 24.1%) -- possible 5HKO

ah yeah man, I call it worth, if I lose 70% hp (2 turns if you want to do the math) but get my win condition set up in a position to win the game. Keep in mind, that isn't even with lefties but a berry or lefties, or wtv you feel like running.

 

  Hide contents

Also, there's a pretty cool memento user, named diglett that runs in the shadows of NU, that paired with scarf or sash, and his lovely ability can allow you to setup on low threat monsters, and there's little to nothing you can do, but cry. Same concept applies to linoone ofc, if you want to use it as an example.

 

Uhm.. first of all since I cooled off sorry if I sounded stingy up there.. now time to read

Well dig works in 1v1 situations ya lol
Usually the idea is to cripple it down or roar it out though, rather than attacking
AKA DMG CALC DOESN'T MATTER HERE AS LONG AS STEELIX LIVES MR. EXPERIENCE 

I don't have enough exp? 1600 OU showdown, 1400+ RU showdown... Thanks man. Sorry I don't know how to play MMO meta :V

You don't have to wall him.. you just have to take the "threat" out
If he uses "Waterfall", he took damage this turn.. and you are ignoring that.. about 50% dmg + life orb.. you sacrifice a Scyther to end the threat of Bib, 
that you allowed in to begin with.. (and since a memento was used) it is a 2 for 2 situation.. only difference is, your opponent win con is gone.

Dealing 20~24% dmg isn't bad.. why are you saying that's bad? If you're running rocky helm, that's like.. what 50% of his hp gone to Rocky + EQ + Life orb? ez revenge incoming?

So I repeat myself.. it is a Memento user + Bib for The guy that got Memento-ed + Another
Two for two.. and you get rid of a threat and re-set the game.. what is wrong with that? 

 

Edited by MHkaserz
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12 hours ago, razimove said:

Rocks remove sturdy, kang is legit as a revenge killer, tangela although it can check will still struggle a lot, if he packs return instead of waterfall, not even sure about drudi usage tbh, scarf exeg/wrsth still cry every quickattack+4 on switch, not sure if hitmonchan outspeeds him and not at home to check, simisage utility is pretty meh, focus sash means you need to control hazards really well the entire match.

1) So you dont use defog or Rapid Spin on a Tier almost all people use at least Stealth Rocks.

2) About Kanghaskan:

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bibarel: 105-124 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bibarel: 102-120 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+

The hit of the previews pokemon

3) About Duddrigon:

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 288-340 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4) About Tangela:

0 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bibarel: 246-290 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 163-193 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

5) About Exeggutor:

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 169-199 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

About Poliwarth:

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 153-181 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO

Also I want to ask here, who is actually using quick attack Bibarel on the actual metagame?

6) Yes, Hitmonchan is faster than Bibarel.

7) Simisage is good. We are talking about Nu tier, you have variety and almost all pokes are useful if you are a good player.

 

Please on future replies speak with facts, not with personal opinions trying to refute other people solutions.

 

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15 hours ago, soyhector said:

1) So you dont use defog or Rapid Spin on a Tier almost all people use at least Stealth Rocks.

2) About Kanghaskan:

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bibarel: 105-124 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bibarel: 102-120 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+

The hit of the previews pokemon

3) About Duddrigon:

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 288-340 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4) About Tangela:

0 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bibarel: 246-290 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 163-193 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

5) About Exeggutor:

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 169-199 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

About Poliwarth:

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 153-181 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO

Also I want to ask here, who is actually using quick attack Bibarel on the actual metagame?

6) Yes, Hitmonchan is faster than Bibarel.

7) Simisage is good. We are talking about Nu tier, you have variety and almost all pokes are useful if you are a good player.

 

Please on future replies speak with facts, not with personal opinions trying to refute other people solutions.

 

Facts then:

1) I'd argue best defogger right now that everyone uses is bravebat, ofc there's more that hold their niche and also can be viable, and one of the best spinners is probably dophan. TP kinda makes it easier for you to prepare accordingly to setup your sweeper, and to be fair, both will struggle.  I'd argue sash is very limited, if not for a lead mon or on a hyper offensive team. 

Spoiler

+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 168-199 (92.3 - 109.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
 

oof. Not to mention, your gameplay


2) Kang, silk scarf isn't even that used tbh, life orb, or even banded I'd argue is more used, fc you need to consider him to be chipped, but well if you want a better stab priority user, sadly the only one that comes to my mind is Ambipom, but with mismagius being so deep in the meta, I'm not sure of viability.
3) That's without life orb, life orb makes him a new hole, not that he wins anyway if there's hazards on the field, or even lets say hail from that one icecream everyone loves.
4) Tangela, although it's a decent check, tier viability is very limited
5) Can you do me a favor and check both speed tiers of exeg and wrath? I don't see how a priority move is relevant, when he rips you a new hole with stab return. 
6) +4 252+ Atk Life Orb Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 255-302 (105.3 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

7) Extremely niche, and really not viable, calm down there Frags, didn't know you had an alt, saying every mon is good. I bet I can even get pachima to disagree with that statement.


____


 

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16 hours ago, soyhector said:

1) So you dont use defog or Rapid Spin on a Tier almost all people use at least Stealth Rocks.

2) About Kanghaskan:

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bibarel: 105-124 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bibarel: 102-120 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+

The hit of the previews pokemon

3) About Duddrigon:

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 288-340 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4) About Tangela:

0 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bibarel: 246-290 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 163-193 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

5) About Exeggutor:

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 169-199 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

About Poliwarth:

+4 252 Atk Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 153-181 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO

Also I want to ask here, who is actually using quick attack Bibarel on the actual metagame?

6) Yes, Hitmonchan is faster than Bibarel.

7) Simisage is good. We are talking about Nu tier, you have variety and almost all pokes are useful if you are a good player.

 

Please on future replies speak with facts, not with personal opinions trying to refute other people solutions.

 

1. Lemme use your argument against you, read from point 3 and onwards. Also keep in mind, Bibarel is most commonly used on a hyper offense teams archetypes with a stealthrock suicide lead, which pretty much guarantees rocks on field.

2. Kanga is an offensive switch, which is a revenge killer. Meaning Bibarel already killed something, meaning it already did it's job. Keep also in mind that it cannot kill a full HP Bibarel.

3. +4 252+ Atk Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 166-196 (90.2 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

4. Tangela cannot switch in directly on any of Bibarel's attacks while rocks are on field:

+4 252+ Atk Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 94-112 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+4 252+ Atk Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 37-45 (21.5 - 26.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
(this is even a calc without orb and keep in mind a lot of them DOES run orb)
5. ?
 
Are you seriously suggesting scarf exeggutor and scarf poliwrath?
5 and 6. And now Hitmonchan?
62819d8f29b9858c9ca23163069155a1.png
02e3d3b7543b8185da5c060d7dbb6c5f.png
2976b0e89f5a3426fc857ab5bc727677.png
 
If anything, Hitmontop would make a more legit example of a check due to it's Intimidate (decreases atk by 2 stages due to Simple) and it's WAY better utility than Hitmonchan. I could slap scarf on a pierdylton of pokes and call it a "check" for Bibarel. This reminds me of the old argument about Tyranitar and Hitmontop; let's bring an NU poke into OU because it can counter Tyranitar (which got banned to ubers back then). See how flawed this looks like?
7. 90bf8a219c979202245f68c4197928a0.png
If Simisage would be good, we'd see it in NU. For now it has 0% usage. Claiming that a 0% usage pokemon is good is more than a terrible argument...
 
As for the passive- agressive part at the very end of your post, seriously, please keep stuff like that to yourself. I just dismantled your post and gave you very strict facts (usage) and there's no place for you to argue that the pokemons mentioned by you are "good" in the NU metagame when usage proves they're not. They might (not like they actually CAN do it every time) be useful for stopping Bibarel (via sacrificing themselves pretty much and a valuable spot in your team) and I'm not doubting that, however I'm not fond of bringing unrealistic situations and pokemons into life to counter a potential threat.
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52 minutes ago, razimove said:

Facts then:

1) I'd argue best defogger right now that everyone uses is bravebat, ofc there's more that hold their niche and also can be viable, and one of the best spinners is probably dophan. TP kinda makes it easier for you to prepare accordingly to setup your sweeper, and to be fair, both will struggle.  I'd argue sash is very limited, if not for a lead mon or on a hyper offensive team. 

  Reveal hidden contents

+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 168-199 (92.3 - 109.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
 

oof. Not to mention, your gameplay


2) Kang, silk scarf isn't even that used tbh, life orb, or even banded I'd argue is more used, fc you need to consider him to be chipped, but well if you want a better stab priority user, sadly the only one that comes to my mind is Ambipom, but with mismagius being so deep in the meta, I'm not sure of viability.
3) That's without life orb, life orb makes him a new hole, not that he wins anyway if there's hazards on the field, or even lets say hail from that one icecream everyone loves.
4) Tangela, although it's a decent check, tier viability is very limited
5) Can you do me a favor and check both speed tiers of exeg and wrath? I don't see how a priority move is relevant, when he rips you a new hole with stab return. 
6) +4 252+ Atk Life Orb Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 255-302 (105.3 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

7) Extremely niche, and really not viable, calm down there Frags, didn't know you had an alt, saying every mon is good. I bet I can even get pachima to disagree with that statement.


____


 

1) Thats an irrelevant explanation. I've never said "Stop bibarel with Golbat", i said that it seems like you dont use Defog or Rapid Spin because you complain about Sturdy.

2) How is more used Lifeball/Choise Band Kangha? Thats Kamikaze and also more easy to control by your oponent with stall.

3) So you want to use Lifeball on a pokemon wich set up to sweep and has bad Ps and Defenses? Bibarel Lifeball would kill 1 or 2 pokes and die.

4) Why are you saing its viability is limited? Walls strongs, learns good moves like knock off.

5) I didnt understand your logic here.

6) Second time i told you Hitmonchan is faster, and learns match punch.

7) Was that a kind of insult? I mean people start insulting when they know they are wrong and have nothing important to say. And why are you saying that like it looked like i felt best player on pokemmo when im only defending my theories. Also never saw you winning a tournament or having a good PSL score or never read anyone saying "razimove is a good player", only thing i saw is you commenting negative things on forums to all people opinions and suggestions.

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56 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

1. Lemme use your argument against you, read from point 3 and onwards. Also keep in mind, Bibarel is most commonly used on a hyper offense teams archetypes with a stealthrock suicide lead, which pretty much guarantees rocks on field.

2. Kanga is an offensive switch, which is a revenge killer. Meaning Bibarel already killed something, meaning it already did it's job. Keep also in mind that it cannot kill a full HP Bibarel.

3. +4 252+ Atk Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 166-196 (90.2 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

4. Tangela cannot switch in directly on any of Bibarel's attacks while rocks are on field:

+4 252+ Atk Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 94-112 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+4 252+ Atk Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 37-45 (21.5 - 26.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
(this is even a calc without orb and keep in mind a lot of them DOES run orb)
5. ?
 
Are you seriously suggesting scarf exeggutor and scarf poliwrath?
5 and 6. And now Hitmonchan?
62819d8f29b9858c9ca23163069155a1.png
02e3d3b7543b8185da5c060d7dbb6c5f.png
2976b0e89f5a3426fc857ab5bc727677.png
 
If anything, Hitmontop would make a more legit example of a check due to it's Intimidate (decreases atk by 2 stages due to Simple) and it's WAY better utility than Hitmonchan. I could slap scarf on a pierdylton of pokes and call it a "check" for Bibarel. This reminds me of the old argument about Tyranitar and Hitmontop; let's bring an NU poke into OU because it can counter Tyranitar (which got banned to ubers back then). See how flawed this looks like?
7. 90bf8a219c979202245f68c4197928a0.png
If Simisage would be good, we'd see it in NU. For now it has 0% usage. Claiming that a 0% usage pokemon is good is more than a terrible argument...
 
As for the passive- agressive part at the very end of your post, seriously, please keep stuff like that to yourself. I just dismantled your post and gave you very strict facts (usage) and there's no place for you to argue that the pokemons mentioned by you are "good" in the NU metagame when usage proves they're not. They might (not like they actually CAN do it every time) be useful for stopping Bibarel (via sacrificing themselves pretty much and a valuable spot in your team) and I'm not doubting that, however I'm not fond of bringing unrealistic situations and pokemons into life to counter a potential threat.

1) -

2) When you set up a pokemon is with the intention to kill more than 1 pokemon. If it couldnt kill nothing and could you switch 100% safe would be the most useless pokemon, its like "it killed 1 poke, its broken". Anyways maybe you lost 1 pokemon but you didnt lose the match.

3) It doesnt matter if Duddrigon is defeated, you did the damage with its hability + helmet + sucker punch + hit of preview pokemon.

4) You switch on Set Up Turn, also Bibabel cant 1OHKO Tangela.

5-6) ??? why are you showing usage like if a pokemon has low usage you cant use it. Talking about usages Bibarel has only 1.47% usage (based on pokemmo usage lists, same you based on)

7) same answer that 5-6)

 

Answering the end part of your reply: Man calm down, dont tell me what to do. You are not a member of my family or a friend to talk me like that. So be polite because i didnt disrespect you.

Edited by soyhector
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8 minutes ago, soyhector said:

2) When you set up a pokemon is with the intention to kill more than 1 pokemon. If it couldnt kill nothing and could you switch 100% safe would be the most useless pokemon, its like "it killed 1 poke, its broken". Anyways maybe you lost 1 pokemon but you didnt lose the match.

3) It doesnt matter if Duddrigon is defeated, you did the damage with its hability + helmet + sucker punch + hit of preview pokemon.

4) You switch on Set Up Turn, also Bibabel cant 1OHKO Tangela.

5-6) ??? why are you showing usage like if a pokemon has low usage you cant use it.

7) same answer that 5-6)

 

Answering the end part of your reply: Man calm down, dont tell me what to do. You are not a member of my family or a friend to talk me like that. So be polite because i didnt disrespect you.

2. Indeed, but your Kangaskhan doesn't outright kill Bibarel. If Kangaskhan is your Bibarel "check" then you will always lose at least one pokemon. If Kanga is supposed to stop Bibarel, you will end up losing 2 pokemons- Kanga switches in fake outs -> switches out, something dies -> Kanga switches in again and then fake out + sucker punch. This way you can keep your Kanga healthy but you WILL lose another mon regardless.

3. It does matter, because it doesn't stop it whatsoever. Additionally, defensive Druddigon with Sucker Punch forgoes it's coverage or a status move (assuming it's the standard Dragon Tail/ EQ/ Glare/ Rocks set). At best it can do around 65% of damage to Bibarel. If a pokemon does 65% damage to a mon it's supposed to counter and then it dies, it's not a counter at all. The "preview pokemon" argument is irrelevant because, well, we got team preview.

4. Neither can Tangela OHKO Bibarel unless Leaf Storm which seems counter-productive on a defensive mon that has access to Giga Drain. I did mention Tangela on previous page though as one of the mons that stands out as the most reliable check for it and I agree with this part, but it's shaky.

5/6/7. Im showing usage of mons you have suggested. I don't think that if a mon has low usage then it means you cannot use it, quite the opposite- but only if it's effective and plays an important role in the metagame. For example I was able to dig out Stunfisk for UU months ago and I'm very satisfied from it's performance. But scarf Exeggutor is too slow to use scarf- it gets outspeeded even by nonboosted pokemons in the metagame and does not offer enough firepower with scarf equipped: scarf Exegg is outclassed by offensive sets thanks to it's massive special attack. Poliwrath lately is played more often but as a defensive utility pokemon, and not offensive scarf mon. Scarf pokemon needs to be able to reach a reasonable stat to be effective and wield enough firepower (I mean, the atk/satk stat, not movepool) to hit hard without being boosted. Poliwrath lacks both, Exeggutor lacks speed.

Simisage on the other hand is just terribly outclassed by Sceptile in every aspect and bringing it as an example in this discussion is a missed argument.

 

I am actually very calm in this discussion and I do not mean by any chance to insult you, I'm only providing dry facts and arguments backed up by usage and experience, and I will tell you what you should do if I will see something that doesn't fit right. Razi is my friend and the part where it's actually you who is acting like a god who can give orders left and right is disrespectful and offensive considering the post you quoted (and makes you a hypocrite, just btw). Please keep your passive agressive talk away from any competitive discussion if you want to avoid responses like that, it will also make your posts more credible. Just a "friendly" advice from someone who took part in countless discussions

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19 minutes ago, soyhector said:

1) Thats an irrelevant explanation. I've never said "Stop bibarel with Golbat", i said that it seems like you dont use Defog or Rapid Spin because you complain about Sturdy.

2) How is more used Lifeball/Choise Band Kangha? Thats Kamikaze and also more easy to control by your oponent with stall.

3) So you want to use Lifeball on a pokemon wich set up to sweep and has bad Ps and Defenses? Bibarel Lifeball would kill 1 or 2 pokes and die.

4) Why are you saing its viability is limited? Walls strongs, learns good moves like knock off.

5) I didnt understand your logic here.

6) Second time i told you Hitmonchan is faster, and learns match punch.

7) Was that a kind of insult? I mean people start insulting when they know they are wrong and have nothing important to say. And why are you saying that like it looked like i felt best player on pokemmo when im only defending my theories. Also never saw you winning a tournament or having a good PSL score or never read anyone saying "razimove is a good player", only thing i saw is you commenting negative things on forums to all people opinions and suggestions.

4F already went through the trouble of answering you aswell ( if you wanted someone that actually has a name, multiple tournaments under the belt, actually relevant in PSL and other community events).

Spoiler

About your last, sorry bro, everytime we ever met on MM we both know how it ended(if we're measuring uguus here), but if you want, I can 1v1 sometime next week (kind of hard for me to play this week), I promise you there will be a bibarel on my team, and some sort of mon that will allow me to setup on you. Also, calm down broski, you're nobody nor in PSL nor anywhere, just a random guy that got bought for close to minimum credits or something once or twice. And stop being a special snowflake, nobody insulted you, not even indirectly, even if you really are asking for it. I can be negative, just like you, or everyone else, you have the right to your opinion, and as long as it's a fair critic, it's ok to be negative, just don't be an ass. 



But now, justify me, all your points, especially, why are you saying hitmonchan is faster and why is that relevant. 
 

6) +4 252+ Atk Life Orb Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 255-302 (105.3 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

How do you plan on answering a bibarel, with a chan, knowing that he can literally switch out everytime cause well, hitmonchan isn't a threat at all to most NU meta, maybe can hurt steelix, but I can list 10+ things that actualy are high in usage, able to screw him up, I bet you can do too, and that's why it can only be considered an obscure check, as you're literally finding monsters that have low to 0 usage, to try and check it. I'd go in depth on this, but you can probably do your research too.

5) Are you suggesting scarf sets on both lol, tell me how are any of them of any viability, especially scarfed, I'd argue wrath actually holds a pretty cool niche in NU, but not as a scarf mon.

7) Answered above, stop being a special snowflake. If you think I actually insulted you, sorry broski, I'm all for peace and love. Now to actually obliterate some of the points you keep spamming.

1) It's about defog/spin if you really want to justify sash, and I listed you 2 of the best, and the highest in usage (18% golbat, 21% donphan), tell me good defoggers, that are viable in NU that can actually do anything in case well idk, bibarel just pops in when you switch, sets up and make you cry, or that at least have some usage, can be spinners too if you want, to make your life easier, Altaria is also somewhat viable, what else, tell me broski. Also, keep in mind, stuff like rocks suicide lead is common for HO teams, and those are usually the ones that have bibagod in them usually. 4F already say this, but let me say again just in case.

2) That's the common set. And well guess what, it's meant to create offensive pressure, not to kiss the opponent. 

3) Different matches, different variables, imo from personal experience on my alt, bibarel w/berry works really nicely, but so does LO in a lot of scenarios, in fact, even focus sash works great on him sometimes, and if you kill 2 pokemons with bibarel and that means they lose their win condition? That's a win in my eyes.

4) Setup bait for some mons, again, golbat can switch in everytime on him, vanilluxe is pretty common, and so are many threats to him(again, high usage threats), without regenerator, lack of HA of his evo, hinders the tangela line from comp. 


Again, sorry if you feel insulted, nobody here is insulting you, but your logic is flawed.
 

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1 minute ago, RysPicz said:

2. Indeed, but your Kangaskhan doesn't outright kill Bibarel. If Kangaskhan is your Bibarel "check" then you will always lose at least one pokemon. If Kanga is supposed to stop Bibarel, you will end up losing 2 pokemons- Kanga switches in fake outs -> switches out, something dies -> Kanga switches in again and then fake out + sucker punch. This way you can keep your Kanga healthy but you WILL lose another mon regardless.

3. It does matter, because it doesn't stop it whatsoever. Additionally, defensive Druddigon with Sucker Punch forgoes it's coverage or a status move (assuming it's the standard Dragon Tail/ EQ/ Glare/ Rocks set). At best it can do around 65% of damage to Bibarel. If a pokemon does 65% damage to a mon it's supposed to counter and then it dies, it's not a counter at all. The "preview pokemon" argument is irrelevant because, well, we got team preview.

4. Neither can Tangela OHKO Bibarel unless Leaf Storm which seems counter-productive on a defensive mon that has access to Giga Drain. I did mention Tangela on previous page though as one of the mons that stands out as the most reliable check for it and I agree with this part, but it's shaky.

5/6/7. Im showing usage of mons you have suggested. I don't think that if a mon has low usage then it means you cannot use it, quite the opposite- but only if it's effective and plays an important role in the metagame. For example I was able to dig out Stunfisk for UU months ago and I'm very satisfied from it's performance. But scarf Exeggutor is too slow to use scarf- it gets outspeeded even by nonboosted pokemons in the metagame and does not offer enough firepower with scarf equipped: scarf Exegg is outclassed by offensive sets thanks to it's massive special attack. Poliwrath lately is played more often but as a defensive utility pokemon, and not offensive scarf mon. Scarf pokemon needs to be able to reach a reasonable stat to be effective and wield enough firepower (I mean, the atk/satk stat, not movepool) to hit hard without being boosted. Poliwrath lacks both, Exeggutor lacks speed.

Simisage on the other hand is just terribly outclassed by Sceptile in every aspect and bringing it as an example in this discussion is a missed argument.

 

I am actually very calm in this discussion and I do not mean by any chance to insult you, I'm only providing dry facts and arguments backed up by usage and experience, and I will tell you what you should do if I will see something that doesn't fit right. Razi is my friend and the part where it's actually you who is acting like a god who can give orders left and right is disrespectful and offensive considering the post you quoted (and makes you a hypocrite, just btw). Please keep your passive agressive talk away from any competitive discussion if you want to avoid responses like that, it will also make your posts more credible. Just a "friendly" advice from someone who took part in countless discussions

This is going away from the main theme.

I actually only read the last part of this reply because its too long and i dont want to lost more time with you and razimove. When i said you "calm down" was like "hey control what you say to me". And man i dont care if it is your friend lol, why are you telling me that? Its like "its my friend and he can be passive-agresive with other people but other people cant with him". Dont reply to this, please you must limitate here to Tier Nu comments.

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8 hours ago, razimove said:

But now, justify me, all your points, especially, why are you saying hitmonchan is faster and why is that relevant. 

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bibarel: 151-179 (98 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

8 hours ago, razimove said:

How do you plan on answering a bibarel, with a chan, knowing that he can literally switch out everytime cause well, hitmonchan isn't a threat at all to most NU meta, maybe can hurt steelix, but I can list 10+ things that actualy are high in usage, able to screw him up, I bet you can do too, and that's why it can only be considered an obscure check, as you're literally finding monsters that have low to 0 usage, to try and check it. I'd go in depth on this, but you can probably do your research too.

Thats simply not true. Id bet that if it wasnt a ditto only mon more people would actually run it. Also chan has a niche as an actual offensive spinner, cant think of any other mons offering that and it has spicy priority getting rid of pesky vanilluxe with an iron fist boosted mach punch. What im tryin to say is, chan can be amazing, give it a try.

 

I kinda feel like i told someone the same about stunfisk a while ago.

 

8 hours ago, razimove said:

2) That's the common set. And well guess what, it's meant to create offensive pressure, not to kiss the opponent. 

its viable ofc, but why would you waste kangas fantastic defensive stats (105/80/80) by shortening its longevity and ability to switch into stuff by using life orb?

 

On 2/27/2019 at 2:52 AM, soyhector said:

1) So you dont use defog or Rapid Spin on a Tier almost all people use at least Stealth Rocks. 

you make it sound like controlling hazards is always easy, which it really isnt at times. the fact that there is hazard removal doesnt mean that you can always control them, thus sash mons arent a reliable answer to bibarel. sometimes ur sitting there with your toise and that rose just spikes.

 

On 2/27/2019 at 2:52 AM, soyhector said:

4) About Tangela:

i said it twice and ill say it again, if you disagree feel free to prove me wrong. tangela is in a very bad spot in our meta. it doesnt resist flying, nor does it resist fighting or normal, it doesnt have regenerator and lacks lefties recovery, so it isnt too hard to get rid of a tangela.

 

also, tho this is an opinion not a fact, stall doesnt seem very viable to me in NU, but thats what tangela builds tend to promote. its like building with altaria. they force you to turn defensive, because they have close to 0 offensive pressure and require plenty of support to fulfill their roles. thats probably why we see way more golbat than altaria these days.

 

 

i havent seen a single defensive druddigon run sucker punch yet, for a good reason, i think. tbh i dont like the idea to run a mon that "checks" something just by being thrown in to die cause skin + helmet. thats the kind of stuff id resort to if i had no other options if you know what i mean.

 

Edited by DrButler
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9 hours ago, DrButler said:
Thats simply not true. Id bet that if it wasnt a ditto only mon more people would actually run it. Also chan has a niche as an actual offensive spinner, cant think of any other mons offering that and it has spicy priority getting rid of pesky vanilluxe with an iron fist boosted mach punch. What im tryin to say is, chan can be amazing, give it a try.

True.

 

9 hours ago, DrButler said:
you make it sound like controlling hazards is always easy, which it really isnt at times. the fact that there is hazard removal doesnt mean that you can always control them, thus sash mons arent a reliable answer to bibarel. sometimes ur sitting there with your toise and that rose just spikes.

I know. It depends on the ocassion, but its one more option.

 

9 hours ago, DrButler said:
i said it twice and ill say it again, if you disagree feel free to prove me wrong. tangela is in a very bad spot in our meta. it doesnt resist flying, nor does it resist fighting or normal, it doesnt have regenerator and lacks lefties recovery, so it isnt too hard to get rid of a tangela.

 

also, tho this is an opinion not a fact, stall doesnt seem very viable to me in NU, but thats what tangela builds tend to promote. its like building with altaria. they force you to turn defensive, because they have close to 0 offensive pressure and require plenty of support to fulfill their roles. thats probably why we see way more golbat than altaria these days.

Tangela was an option, i would prefer Tangrown. It doesnt resist flying its not a problem because all walls have some weakness, its only teambuilding around that.

 

10 hours ago, DrButler said:
i havent seen a single defensive druddigon run sucker punch yet, for a good reason, i think. tbh i dont like the idea to run a mon that "checks" something just by being thrown in to die cause skin + helmet. thats the kind of stuff id resort to if i had no other options if you know what i mean.

Like i told you i enumerate some options focused on Bibarel, especific sets. And for example choise scarf Exeggutor is not shit like someone said (i dont remember who), it outspeed 105 base speed pokes and you have the "surprise factor" (i dont know if that expression exists on your language), you can also do big damage/kill charizards or scythers with Ancient Power or kill adamant durants with hp fire.

Anyways Bibarel has a very low usage, idk why are you afraid of it.

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26 minutes ago, razimove said:

Can't argue against honestly, I just don't see how hitmonchan can be viable on the meta.

Iron fist hability, good coverage. Kill almost all walls 2 hits. Good Sp defense. Mach Punch+stab+iron fist=good revenge killer, also can kill some pokes 100% health with Mach Punch.

Edited by soyhector
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2 hours ago, soyhector said:

Anyways Bibarel has a very low usage, idk why are you afraid of it.

I hate building for an hour and scrapping the team, because "damn, its weak to biba". Or "can be weak to biba, cause nobody run it, r-right?" then get popped by one (just like last TT). I hate being forced to run stuff that i think isnt good just to avoid getting 6:0d by skillbarel.

 

I already said that i was ranting tho. Im just keeping this up, cause i enjoy talking about NU things.

 

2 hours ago, pachima said:

LIAR. I saw you using that fictional stuff in a tour.

i mean when your opponent always runs the same cores you can run stall.

 

20 minutes ago, razimove said:

Can't argue against honestly, I just don't see how hitmonchan can be viable on the meta.

Its quite simple actually; shitty hp; 110 Spdef, sustain in drainpunch, tpunch even hits phys walls hard, spin (as an offensive mon) and stab priority, while all of its attacking moves get boosted by orb + iron fist.

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3 minutes ago, DrButler said:

I hate building for an hour and scrapping the team, because "damn, its weak to biba". Or "can be weak to biba, cause nobody run it, r-right?" then get popped by one (just like last TT). I hate being forced to run stuff that i think isnt good just to avoid getting 6:0d by skillbarel.

Linoone, Crustle, Carracosta, etc can do 6-0s too. It always depends of how do you play. If you play offensive style its really dificult for Bibarel to set up sword dance, and practically it wont be a threat. Also i think there is no 100% perfect teambuild, always can appear 1 pokemon that can shit on your team.

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21 minutes ago, soyhector said:

If you play offensive style its really dificult for Bibarel to set up sword dance, and practically it wont be a threat.

i remember orange bringing a foresight hitmontop just to keep his bibarel sash intact. if you wanna make sure it can hold onto that sash it will be able to do so and always find an opportunity to set up. yes, the calcs are significantly weaker, but itll always go +4 and facing it u dont know if its jet, qa or both.

 

21 minutes ago, soyhector said:

Linoone, Crustle, Carracosta,

Unlike biba those are handled fairly well by the mons that are meta rn. Linoone prio is always normal, carra prio is always water, biba can be both. its way harder and has more risk involved revenge killing a biba than coming up with a gameplan vs these two, unless ur rinning kanga or chan (i disregard pika and raichu here, cause i dont think theyre any good). the sole fact that biba has access to two STAB priority moves is insane.

Edited by DrButler
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34 minutes ago, soyhector said:

Linoone, Crustle, Carracosta, etc can do 6-0s too. It always depends of how do you play. If you play offensive style its really dificult for Bibarel to set up sword dance, and practically it wont be a threat. Also i think there is no 100% perfect teambuild, always can appear 1 pokemon that can shit on your team.

We can ban linoone too, Im alright with this

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NU is a chaotic shit show:

  • barely any usage that people can use as a reference for teambuilding
  • top meta threats getting banned, moving out or moving into the tier every month

NU is way too unstable for anyone to say specific mons are viable or unviable. 

 

If a threat has checks, no matter how viable those may be, that threat can't be banned as Uber offensive, defensive or support and those are right now the only criteria under which a pokemon could get banned imo.

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3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

NU is way too unstable for anyone to say specific mons are viable or unviable. 

how does the tier being unstable, which is already argueable in itself, influence if a mons viable or not? there will always be good and bad mons based on the pool of mons available to use. if you look for a spinner that packs a punch and has stab priority there is no alternative to tyrogue evos. chan is the best at what it is supposed to do in our NU environment. i mean, hit me up with some wisdom; but how can chan be unviable in our current NU, based on what? cause the tier is shaky? cause some people run sableye for whatever reason?

 

the way i understand viability, maybe thats where we differ, idk. the likelihood of a mon doing good based on the likelihood to meet certain mons or certain builds in a match.

 

sure, you might run into sableye (lol), dusknoir or bold missy and chan does nothing for a solid period of the match, but the likelihood of meeting any of these is fairly low to begin with and when you dont face them chan can do fantastic stuff, so how can i not say that chan is a very viable mon? based on what?

 

38 minutes ago, gbwead said:

If a threat has checks, no matter how viable those may be, that threat can't be banned as Uber offensive, defensive or support and those are right now the only criteria under which a pokemon could get banned imo.

i already said it twice; i was ranting after getting pooped on by a fkn biba in TT. tangelas not very viable rn. if biba rises in usage it will be - changes the whole dynamic. tangela/tangrowth would become very viable checks, cause theyd actually do something with biba usage, i see that.

 

 

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