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NU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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3 hours ago, richardbenzina said:

Any thoughts on Blaziken? 

This is just my 2 cents, but it has been the pinnacle of Nu meta for several months, with the metagame revolving around it so much that otherwise rather obscure pokemons rose in usage (such as quagsire, altaria and seismitoad, which rapresent in my opinion the best checks to blaziken)

Its moveset became so diverse that it can now perform brilliantly several different roles, from a set up sweeper, to scout with u turn, it can use a mixed set with great effectivity, not to mention the choice version which is arguably the most problematic

 

 

Overall, i don't think blaziken is necesseraly broken as dugtrio was, i think it's centralized the meta and with no ha in sight and a stale meta, removing this threat could shake rather significantly the meta 

Also, blaziken little brother Emboar would still fulfil blaziken niche in a less efficient way

these are just my 2 cents, i am not the best player out there but idk maybe someone agrees

 

Blaziken doesn't have any form of configuration that I understand, only sword dance but it's meh, the scarf set still needs prediction to be able to carry it out well and it's easier to wall, and even wearing a scarf it lacks speed to overcome others scarf, (Gallade, venu do tie, while it is surpassed by rotom, unfezant, magmortar, etc) the choice band set barely exists, it needs the same prediction and lacks speed, and that in an offensive meta is only a problem, the scarf It shines for compensating a bit for that, speedcontrol and pivot, something that running choice band would lose, it should not be preferred over scarf unless you know that your opponent plays walling, and even then you would need a lot of prediction.

Although the life orb set is viable and more complicated to deal with defensively, it is justified, after all it is a wallbreaker, in addition to the fact that speed is still a problem, the difference with the choice band is that it has priority to counteract a The issue of speed is little, in addition to the fact that it still has counts, slowking, alomomola, altaria, mantine (these last depending on the last slot used) golbat with speed to overcome it can also control it, it is not that it does not really have a form to counteract, it doesn't seem to me that it centralizes so much either, the poke is good, u turn and double stab good, it's not something that many at the level offer you, that's why I use it, but I don't see it centralized,

I don't see people playing lampent (which otherwise it would be useless in the level) just to stop it, after all, slowking, altaria and other things, have a use out of count blaziken, also like any very used poke in every level, you must take something for it, that it does not mean centralization. I really would like it to go up to UU to see how much the meta changes, but banning it doesn't seem like a solution to me, if you want me to go up, use it in UU haha

Edited by Huargensy
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17 hours ago, xJoseee said:

You can't consider this as stable checks, mixed/special blaziken destroys mons like Quagsire, Seismitoad, Sandslash and Steelix:

Only assuming Aura sphere (without HP involved, and 0 spA EV invest) :

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 90-107 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 79-95 (37.2 - 44.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 103-122 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 120-143 (65.9 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah that's true, the awkward thing is finding out Blaziken's set, but then you can revenge kill / pressure it with a mon who is faster as it loses that crucial additional speed. 

 

But yeah I find it centralising as it made NU quite stale (similar to when Dugtrio was in the tier) but definitely not broken or anything like that.

Edited by Imperial
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As a Scarf User, it only does a decent job at revenge killing, since it can't speed control most setup mons in the tier and loses to the majority of other scarf users. As a Band/Mixed user, it lacks speed in a hit first and hit hard meta so you should really only fear it if you're playing balance/semi-stall teams. As a standalone mon it isn't something utterly ridiculous to deal with, it's just that some of the combinations with other mons can be annoying. For instance when it's paired with things that abuse its main checks, such as Absol (comes into Psychic types) and Vanilluxe (comes into Golbat, Altaria, Gligar, Quagsire). Having access to U-Turn allows Blaziken to scout and abuse its checks better than it could before, while Close Combat and Flare Blitz are really strong stabs with good coverage. Overall, I'd say Blaziken is really good and versatile, but not enough to be considered broken or overcentralizing.

 

Edit: Forgot to mention it's weak to Aqua Jet, which sees play in a lot of teams, mostly coming from Feraligatr or Sharpedo.

Edited by LifeStyleNORE
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17 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

it lacks speed in a hit first and hit hard meta so you should really only fear it if you're playing balance/semi-stall teams

To be fair that's not the metagame that is seen in PSL right now. This is mostly a ladder thing, even if those HO teams are also all over tournaments (with a fair share of balanced/semistall). And you could also argue that the metagame is such because some threats in the tier are uncheckable (depending on sets), Blaziken being only one of many (Zoroark, Gallade, Absol ...) ?


Otherwise, all of the above is absolutely true. Blaziken is just the best/most common pivot in the tier that has plenty of different possible uses, good typing and power with good stabs and good coverages, of course it will see a lot of usage overall.

I don't think anyone could say it is not centralizing tho, it hella is. The first thing to do when looking at an NU teambuild is certainly how the team will deal with Blazikens, indeed. But it's not necessarily problematic, what I mean is that Blaziken usual "checks" (or at least the choice scarf physical set ones) are also quite good mons in the overall metagame (outside of Altaria I guess) and they don't need to run a specific spread for it different than what they would normally use.

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6 hours ago, TohnR said:

To be fair that's not the metagame that is seen in PSL right now. This is mostly a ladder thing, even if those HO teams are also all over tournaments (with a fair share of balanced/semistall). And you could also argue that the metagame is such because some threats in the tier are uncheckable (depending on sets), Blaziken being only one of many (Zoroark, Gallade, Absol ...) ?


Otherwise, all of the above is absolutely true. Blaziken is just the best/most common pivot in the tier that has plenty of different possible uses, good typing and power with good stabs and good coverages, of course it will see a lot of usage overall.

I don't think anyone could say it is not centralizing tho, it hella is. The first thing to do when looking at an NU teambuild is certainly how the team will deal with Blazikens, indeed. But it's not necessarily problematic, what I mean is that Blaziken usual "checks" (or at least the choice scarf physical set ones) are also quite good mons in the overall metagame (outside of Altaria I guess) and they don't need to run a specific spread for it different than what they would normally use.

To be fair, gallade is completely walled by sableye. As gallade is not common, neither is sableye

But regardless, the discriminating factor between blaziken and the other threats is access to u-turn

U turn is such that blaziken not only applies an insane amount of offensive pressure on your team, bur it can gain momemtum way easied than the likes of gallade or absol

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  • 1 month later...

Edit: deleted non sense.

 

So the argument has been made against Blaziken more than once and has had back and forth on both sides. I feel a good question to ask is what reason is there not to use Blaziken? It's typing makes rocks damage neutral, main stabs are both 120 bp, using any poke that isn't a wall slower than it is asking to lose to it, has excellent attack and special attack allowing for mixed sets ( making it a guessing game of losing a mon or not ), the tier itself is lacking on good resists to its dual type ( Slowking and Altaria are about the only choices with actual defensive capabilities and Altaria just isnt very good in the tier ), Blaziken also has access U-turn meaning it can bow out of the situations like a incoming Slowking. I'm not saying Blaziken is broken I'm just saying why use something else when there is Blaziken?

Edited by epicdavenport
It's better now
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  • 2 months later...

I don't think blaziken needs to be removed from the tier, but I feel like u-turn on it makes it incredibly frustrating to play against. I'd rather U-turn be removed from its set with that I think even as a revenge killer it won't be as central to the meta would love to hear others' thoughts on this though.

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1 hour ago, BaliAds said:

I don't think blaziken needs to be removed from the tier, but I feel like u-turn on it makes it incredibly frustrating to play against. I'd rather U-turn be removed from its set with that I think even as a revenge killer it won't be as central to the meta would love to hear others' thoughts on this though.

It could be a potential boon for the tier. No other pokemon in the tier or untiered ( without picking a not fully evolved Mon with low stats) shares Blaziken neutrality to rocks, immunity to burn, and offensive dual stab. Would this lead to a slippery slope though? Removing any moves from mons that is problematic in the lowest tier of play.

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  • 1 month later...

I initially posted this in the July Movement Discussion thread but realised I should have put it here so will repeat below:

 

What are people's thoughts on Magic Bounce Espeon as a screen setter in NU?

 

Espeon can set up and switch out using Baton Pass, avoiding pursuit trappers. It also can bounce back defog and other moves meaning screens will safely be up for at least 1-2 turns, so to me it's pretty similar to Electrode minus the amount of speed, yet Electrode got banned from NU.

 

I'm not saying that Espeon needs to be banned, of course there are scarf users and Sceptile who are faster, but it was just something which came to my head.

 

P.S. Not to mention Espeon was already a fantastic offensive powerhouse in the tier, especially with 2 more answers (Absol and Zoroark) moving up to UU. The specs set can cripple a lot of defensive Pokemon, although there are switch ins (Slowking, Steelix, Bronzor, Escavalier, Drapion/Skuntank, Honchkrow, etc) - Life Orb set can also be troublesome but will pack slightly less power with some recoil damage.

 

My main concern is about the first point rather than the second.

Edited by Imperial
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I really don’t think Espeon is problematic in and of itself, and I feel like it will naturally move up due to usage anyway thanks to its new utility. I might just be naive to the use of Magic Bounce but I can’t understand why it would make it worthy of a ban

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4 hours ago, Zymogen said:

I really don’t think Espeon is problematic in and of itself, and I feel like it will naturally move up due to usage anyway thanks to its new utility. I might just be naive to the use of Magic Bounce but I can’t understand why it would make it worthy of a ban

I keep seeing screens being the main issue with espeon. The same argument was made for electrode as well. If screens are such an issue in NU what about getting suspect testing light clay?

Edited by epicdavenport
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5 hours ago, epicdavenport said:

I keep seeing screens being the main issue with espeon. The same argument was made for electrode as well. If screens are such an issue in NU what about getting suspect testing light clay?

Correct me if I’m wrong but Magic Bounce doesn’t prevent defog, does it? It simply causes the user’s evasion to drop instead whilst still removing hazards and screens?

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37 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but Magic Bounce doesn’t prevent defog, does it? It simply causes the user’s evasion to drop instead whilst still removing hazards and screens?

Defog will only remove screens on your opponents side of the field (not your own) so when Defog is Magic bounced, your screens are removed  and not theirs 

Edited by Havsha
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On 7/4/2022 at 2:27 PM, Imperial said:

 

 

P.S. Not to mention Espeon was already a fantastic offensive powerhouse in the tier, especially with 2 more answers (Absol and Zoroark) moving up to UU. The specs set can cripple a lot of defensive Pokemon, although there are switch ins (Slowking, Steelix, Bronzor, Escavalier, Drapion/Skuntank, Honchkrow, etc) - Life Orb set can also be troublesome but will pack slightly less power with some recoil damage.

 

A set of bp/psyshock/HP ground / grassknot handles all of them really well. 

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Espeon is still the same offense as before, he gained an ability that he can't properly execute as it relies on prediction when you have things like steelix, golem, golurk, piloswine and even miltank like regular rock setters, nidoqueen could be added here. . if he's on defense with eq which makes putting espeon on a wrong prediction waste a lot of unnecessary health (I've managed to see espeon go into a rock setter and eat too much damage due to a bad prediction) and even get weaker, such Perhaps the problem is the screens, but its speed is less than that of electrode, unlike this, espeon is slower than the most used mon of the level (blaziken scarf) or others with similar speed, perhaps the biggest problem is not power to use defog, but well, at the time electrode or serpereor was used on Nu, they taunted them so that in the same way you couldn't use defog calmly, plus feraligatr left and was one of the best took advantage of screen abusers

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1 hour ago, Huargensy said:

Espeon is still the same offense as before, he gained an ability that he can't properly execute as it relies on prediction when you have things like steelix, golem, golurk, piloswine and even miltank like regular rock setters, nidoqueen could be added here. . if he's on defense with eq which makes putting espeon on a wrong prediction waste a lot of unnecessary health (I've managed to see espeon go into a rock setter and eat too much damage due to a bad prediction) and even get weaker, such Perhaps the problem is the screens, but its speed is less than that of electrode, unlike this, espeon is slower than the most used mon of the level (blaziken scarf) or others with similar speed, perhaps the biggest problem is not power to use defog, but well, at the time electrode or serpereor was used on Nu, they taunted them so that in the same way you couldn't use defog calmly, plus feraligatr left and was one of the best took advantage of screen abusers

Removing Feraligatr and Espeon only makes Blaziken stronger too. Golem is going to be one of the most common pokemon Espeon comes in against and loses to a full hp golem 9 times out of 10. Still switching into it outside of some select mons would be troublesome and NU keeps losing pokes.

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  • 5 months later...

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