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NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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Munya   

The NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

 

This thread is for the community to make suggestions to the tier council for [Discussion] threads to be opened. All posts will be heavily moderated by myself and there are strict guidelines that all posters must follow when posting in this thread. 

 

Rules:

  • All Off Topic and low content posts will be removed, anyone found to continually be violating this rule will receive a posting restriction. 
  • All requests must come with clear and concise argumentation to justify why a discussion thread will be opened by a tier council member. Posts like "X Pokemon needs to have a thread" or "X Pokemon needs to have a thread because it is really strong" will not be counted as valid and will be removed.
  • Joke posts for Pokemon suggestions will be removed and considered spam.

 

Things to consider:

  • You may want to provide damage calculations to strengthen your argument, this can be done here. Please remember to select the SM tab. 
  • It would be beneficial to provide a clear reason why you feel this Pokemon needs to be discussed. For example, do you believe it falls under the Uber characteristic? The defensive characteristic? Ect....
  • Think carefully before you suggest a Pokemon, it is not a competition to be the one who suggests the most Pokemon. Senile's guide to tiering discussions is a good place to start for those unfamiliar with tier discussions: https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/

All Competition Alley rules still apply!

Many thanks to previous tier leaders for the copy paste rules lists.

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Havsha   

I know NU is still being made, but quick ban linoone please

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RysPicz   

I don't think quick-banning Linoone is the way to go, at all. NU has a plethora of pokemon able to deal with it. Escavalier tanks an ESpeed and KOs, Mismagius outspeeds and willowisps, attacks, in worst scenario destiny bonds, Haunter outspeeds and KOs with Sludge, defensive Amoonguus or Tangrowth tank it with ease, Crustle lives and KOs with Stone Edge/ Rock Blast, then again we have Sturdy users like Golem/ Sawk/ Donphan, there's Probopass which can be an excellent rocks setter and general pivot, Armaldo tanks ESpeed as well, Aggron lol, Steelix laughs... I'm at work right now and I can't be arsed to give more examples but there's a plethora of NU mons which can stop Linoone. Additionally in a meta with Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock it will be incredibly difficult for Linoone to even set up.

 

The meta is still developing and I absolutely don't think Linoone deserves a boot. At least not until we get gen7 berry mechanics and gluttony lo.

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26 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

I don't think quick-banning Linoone is the way to go, at all. NU has a plethora of pokemon able to deal with it. Escavalier tanks an ESpeed and KOs, Mismagius outspeeds and willowisps, attacks, in worst scenario destiny bonds, Haunter outspeeds and KOs with Sludge, defensive Amoonguus or Tangrowth tank it with ease, Crustle lives and KOs with Stone Edge/ Rock Blast, then again we have Sturdy users like Golem/ Sawk/ Donphan, there's Probopass which can be an excellent rocks setter and general pivot, Armaldo tanks ESpeed as well, Aggron lol, Steelix laughs... I'm at work right now and I can't be arsed to give more examples but there's a plethora of NU mons which can stop Linoone. Additionally in a meta with Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock it will be incredibly difficult for Linoone to even set up.

 

The meta is still developing and I absolutely don't think Linoone deserves a boot. At least not until we get gen7 berry mechanics and gluttony lo.

I've seen some magnetons lurking around in NU, so escavalier isn't exactly the safest option, even if it decides to run drill run. Escavalier's recovery is pretty much limited to a rest sleep talk set, not sure if people run that or not. It's probably decent but you miss out on pursuit trapping. If it doesn't run rest, then linoone just needs to wait around until escavalier is 50-60% to set up, which is pretty doable.

 

Mismagmius is an option, but it has to be running timid, and it can't be running a sub cm set or else it will lose. Linoone can always run jolly to mess up haunter as well, although I imagine jolly linoone will miss out on some kos. Both ghost types are also prone to pursuit trapping, although not sure how prevalent that is.

 

Defensive normal resists have existed in every meta where linoone was banned, so I wouldn't say that's a compelling argument to me on why it's not overpowered. 

 

Crustle/amoonguss/tangrowth/armaldo/golem all fall to the flail set you love so dearly, although flail means you're giving up seed bomb, which probably doesn't matter too much anyways.

 

Sturdy users could work, but unless you have fairly dedicated hazard removal, stealth rock/spikes/toxic spikes will most likely ruin any plans with sturdy. Also it seems like you're forgetting that linoone is usually the last pokemon revealed in the match, late into the game, so the odds of someone keeping a sawk at 100% throughout the entire match on the off chance that the opponent might be running linoone, is pretty slim. My main issue with linoone is that it has a +2 priority stab extreme speed, which makes it very deadly vs an offensive team. You might think, oh if I'm running offense, then linoone won't have a chance to set up, but that's generally incorrect, unless you run 6 things with fighting coverage or strong stab moves. An offense team can't just rely on a priority user or a scarf pokemon to deal with linoone, unlike other set up sweepers, which can be dealt with scarfers or +1 priority. 

 

We're probably not going to take any action with NU currently since we're still ironing things out in OU and UU before we really touch NU, so whatever can go wild in NU currently. 

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Posted (edited)

I think Venomoth has potential to be Uber in NU environment. As long as it hits its Sleep Powders, it's pretty unstoppable sweeping machine with Quiver Dance. I don't think anything in the NU tier that has over 5% usage can be considered a reliable counter to Venomoth. Tinted Lens allows Venomoth to hit Bug Buzz ridiculous power over basically anything imaginable. Furthermore if you manage to somehow be able to take Bug Buzz with some kind of ease, Venomoth has a coverage move ready to take care of that Pokemon. In my last 10ish games I feel like most of them have had Venomoth in such a significant role in terms of determining the outcome of the game.

 

I know that the update probably changes lots of things what comes to tier dynamics but I can't really come up with anything specific that would suddenly stop Venomoth after update. Regardless, I think it's a time and place to discuss whether Venomoth is too much for NU to handle.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac

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1 minute ago, OrangeManiac said:

I think Venomoth has potential to be Uber in NU environment. As long as it hits its Sleep Powders, it's pretty unstoppable sweeping machine with Quiver Dance. I don't think anything in the NU tier that has over 5% usage can be considered a reliable counter to Venomoth. Tinted Lens allows Venomoth to hit Bug Buzz ridiculous power over basically anything imaginable. Furthermore if you manage to somehow be able to take Bug Buzz with some kind of ease, Venomoth has a coverage move ready to take care of that Pokemon - and Venomoth has such a large variety of powerful coverage moves. In my last 10ish games I feel like most of them have had Venomoth in such a significant role in terms of determining the outcome of the game.

 

I know that the update probably changes lots of things what comes to tier dynamics but I can't really come up with anything specific that would suddenly stop Venomoth after update. Regardless, I think it's a time and place to discuss whether Venomoth is too much for NU to handle.

mr mime calm mind soundproof :>

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Risadex   
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, MaatthewMLG said:

mr mime calm mind soundproof :>

nasty plot > 

also  psyshock doesnt even need boost to ohko venomoth (only if bold)

 

Edit:

I agree with orange, venomoth doesnt have viable counters by itself, just have ofensive checks with can or avoid sleep powder due vital spirit/insonmia (I see people runing insonia honchkrow bcause the moth) and use strong priority moves or able to take a hit and KO in back.

 

Its typing previne beeing poisoned, has acess to sleep inducer move, roost, giga drain, etc.

 

Edited by Risadex

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30 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

I think Venomoth has potential to be Uber in NU environment. As long as it hits its Sleep Powders, it's pretty unstoppable sweeping machine with Quiver Dance. I don't think anything in the NU tier that has over 5% usage can be considered a reliable counter to Venomoth. Tinted Lens allows Venomoth to hit Bug Buzz ridiculous power over basically anything imaginable. Furthermore if you manage to somehow be able to take Bug Buzz with some kind of ease, Venomoth has a coverage move ready to take care of that Pokemon. In my last 10ish games I feel like most of them have had Venomoth in such a significant role in terms of determining the outcome of the game.

 

I know that the update probably changes lots of things what comes to tier dynamics but I can't really come up with anything specific that would suddenly stop Venomoth after update. Regardless, I think it's a time and place to discuss whether Venomoth is too much for NU to handle.

 

Electrode taunt can stop too if no hp ground and not +1 speed 

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DrButler   
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

I know that the update probably changes lots of things what comes to tier dynamics but I can't really come up with anything specific that would suddenly stop Venomoth after update. Regardless, I think it's a time and place to discuss whether Venomoth is too much for NU to handle.

+6 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 136 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 165-196 (72.6 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

  +1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 64-75 (42.3 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

bouffalants sap sipper is gonna work soon, so:

 

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Bouffalant: 122-146 (64.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Edited by DrButler

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RysPicz   
On 6/22/2018 at 11:07 PM, DrButler said:

+6 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 136 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 165-196 (72.6 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

  +1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 64-75 (42.3 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

bouffalants sap sipper is gonna work soon, so:

 

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Bouffalant: 122-146 (64.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I dunno what's sap sipper gotta do in this example tho, bug buzz is a... well, bug move, not grass?

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DrButler   
1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

I dunno what's sap sipper gotta do in this example tho, bug buzz is a... well, bug move, not grass?

he was concerned about veno powdering and running away with the game, which bouffalant prevents, while also eating a +1 buzz. pretty obvious actually, but oh well.

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RysPicz   
3 hours ago, DrButler said:

he was concerned about veno powdering and running away with the game, which bouffalant prevents, while also eating a +1 buzz. pretty obvious actually, but oh well.

Oops, my bad, sorry :v

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redspawn   
Posted (edited)

What do you guys think about suicide lead smeargle w/focus sash, something like spore/spikes/rocks/destiny bond or something?

Edited by redspawn
Whenever it gets introduced.

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DrButler   
13 minutes ago, redspawn said:

What do you guys think about suicide lead smeargle w/focus sash, something like spore/spikes/rocks/destiny bond or something?

we have defog, so doubt we will see too many suicide leads.

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redspawn   
2 minutes ago, DrButler said:

we have defog, so doubt we will see too many suicide leads.

true, one could run imprison but then the moveset wouldn't be very viable sadly.

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DrButler   

interested in thoughts on honchkrow since it feels a little overwhelming to me. the only safe switch in i found, tho it lacks recovery, is stunfisk, maybe bold ampharos, but meh. naughty @ life orb with 4 attacks seems pretty damn good and with healing wish working theres ways to sustain the orb route w/o roost, tho dropping sucker for roost or maybe even hp grass doesnt sound too terrible considering it makes a decent wallbreaker.

 

Spoiler

 

4 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Steelix: 138-164 (75.8 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 111-133 (61.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 133-160 (73.4 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 117-140 (66.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 103-122 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 147-173 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rapidash: 129-152 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

4 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 94-112 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


 

 

somewhat of a 4mss, if you wanna do both, but depending on the set it can tear certain walls apart first and then help cleaning up lategame:

 

Spoiler

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Venomoth: 142-168 (97.9 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric: 142-168 (97.9 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 114-136 (74.5 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 113-134 (77.9 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 134-160 (79.7 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 134-160 (91.7 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes


 

 

 

 

 

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RysPicz   

I think we should wait for the update to finally hit, if all of the moves and abilities are supposed to actually work (lo.) then it might re-shape the meta quite a bit.

 

Although for now I do agree that Honch is surely problematic with it's mighty atk stat, powerful priority, pursuit-trapping and wallbreaking capabilities. Heck this shit can even run a special set, fucking 105 satk

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RysPicz   
1 minute ago, MaatthewMLG said:

 

too u do dis...

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gbwead   
11 hours ago, DrButler said:

veno checks dont do shit to lilli and lilli checks dont do shit to veno. teambuildings fun rn, but update soon, r-right?

Wouldn't Noctowl counter both?

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DrButler   
15 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Wouldn't Noctowl counter both?

very reliable indeed:  +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Noctowl: 86-104 (41.5 - 50.2%) 

 

in before: "easy psych up air slash sweeps"

 

8 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

They don't understand its power. 

i actually bred that shit a while ago.

 

 

 

on a serious note tho, i dont see how its healthy to be forced to switch your scarfers into them if you dont want to run sitting ducks like licki and altaria every single match.

Edited by DrButler

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pachima   
1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Wouldn't Noctowl counter both?

252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Venomoth Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Noctowl: 110-132 (53.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

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redspawn   
9 minutes ago, pachima said:
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Venomoth Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Noctowl: 110-132 (53.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

so not adamant?

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