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UU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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Staraptor doesnt feel anything close to uber material as far as ive seen and used it. Scarf set as mentioned above is easy to wall while its a good revenge killer. Band set relies on predictions and with the pokemon's defences and weakness to stealth rock adding the recoil you dont get many ins in a game. Even with intimidate you dont want to come on any attack. In my opinion its an ok pokemon to have in the tier,not busted or anything

Edited by Umbramol
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Porygon2 to BL1 I believe p2 is unhealthy for the tier.  It falls under defensive uber characteristics(as stated by the tiering etiquette). Its typing has only one weakness, it can function

Mamoswine should not be brought down to UU. Remember guys when we had Haxorus? We were scared of SD and DD sets, while the CB one shined the most and eventually made it leave the tier. The same thing

Did you even read my post? Where did I write anything about dual stab Hera? Where did I mention Stone Edge? How the hell Jelli, Clops and Weezing are answers to +2 guts boosted Facade and N-Slash?

Porygon2 to BL1

I believe p2 is unhealthy for the tier. 

It falls under defensive uber characteristics(as stated by the tiering etiquette). Its typing has only one weakness, it can function both as a physical defensive wall and a special defensive wall at the same time with its insane bulk, access to immediate healing and pivoting are the main reasons. Also its movepool makes switching into it a heavy risk for offensive pokemons because of the crippling factor with discharge and tri attack while also possibly taking heavy damage and even if you avoid getting crippled the majority of the metagame cant beat it in a 1v1 situation. The mechanics our game follows make running knock off, a move that could cripple p2,not optimal. Which is another plus for the mon itself. After playing countless UU games its clear to me that porygon2 alone ruins a playstyle in the tier, which is offense, because of the reasons mentioned above and that makes it unhealthy the very least. In my opinion it justifies a ban and it should be taken under serious consideration. 

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1 minute ago, Umbramol said:

Porygon2 to BL1

I believe p2 is unhealthy for the tier. 

It falls under defensive uber characteristics(as stated by the tiering etiquette). Its typing has only one weakness, it can function both as a physical defensive wall and a special defensive wall at the same time with its insane bulk, access to immediate healing and pivoting are the main reasons. Also its movepool makes switching into it a heavy risk for offensive pokemons because of the crippling factor with discharge and tri attack while also possibly taking heavy damage and even if you avoid getting crippled the majority of the metagame cant beat it in a 1v1 situation. The mechanics our game follows make running knock off, a move that could cripple p2,not optimal. Which is another plus for the mon itself. After playing countless UU games its clear to me that porygon2 alone ruins a playstyle in the tier, which is offense, because of the reasons mentioned above and that makes it unhealthy the very least. In my opinion it justifies a ban and it should be taken under serious consideration. 

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 136-160 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 136-160 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and to justify my claims here are 2 calculations where porygon is supposedly functioning as a pure special defensive wall yet it has the ability to stop a super effective move from popular choice band users in the tier. And im not even running the most optimal ev spread to it i just used the one provided by showdown calculator. You can run bold or calm or even modest without investing in its defenses, only in hp and it still tanks like a boss and returns insane damage to you. 

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I even would say it fits offensive and defensice characteristics well, the fact is p2 CAN break through most of the tier with just 2 moves and it does this while walling the majority of the tier as well. Almost no mon that isn't incredibly obviously broken fits an uber characteristic perfectly, that's why these characteristics are stupid to use in the way they have been used. You should always look at what characteristics are most present and which one it combines to be the menace that it is. Which is why I'm saying p2 could be banned OR AT LEAST suspect tested under the guise of a combination of offensive and defensive characteristics. 

 

I just say this because the TC has a habit of pointing to these characteristics, pushing their glasses up and saying "well actuallllyyy it doesn't fit x characteristic perfectly because'. And because of that most mons only get banned under the guise of 'unhealthy'. This isn't the right way to go about that and I hope TC members can see that as well.

 

So yeah I'm in support of at least a suspect test.

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Sees conversation about a defensive mon being banned from UU... realizes I am the council now...

 

Pushes glasses up... now this does bring a smile to my face. 

 

Now to set aside the cringe, I must admit I'm more disconnected from UU of all the tiers but I must say P2 has some incredible attributes and it's easy to see why it's risen to the top of the usage boards. I'll take a look at how P2 impacts the game and help fight the good fight if the techno duck appears to be nasty. Now with that said, y'all picked the wrong time to bring this up as a tier shift is coming soon (TM) and history has proven big tier changes have a way of postponing tier decisions. A suspect is always worthwhile but maybe not for a couple weeks as the new changes settle in. 

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i agree with umbra p2 is to much for the tier even fight scarfers cant kill it with a 120bp stab super effective( i know the role from a scarfer is not to break walls but a stab with 120bp super effective should kill it. the fact he can take hit is not the biggest problem but he also is able to return a massive amount of dmg .

heracross cc
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 102-122 (53.1 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
P2 dmg after a cc
0 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 75-88 (48.3 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
P2 dmg after a boosted tri 
+1 0 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 111-132 (71.6 - 85.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

medicham hjk
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 156-186 (81.2 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
p2 dmg output after boost
+1 0 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham: 90-106 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
p2 dmg after non boost
0 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham: 60-72 (44.4 - 53.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
it also got acces to teleport that makes it even stronger

Edited by Quinn010
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Porygon is an incredibly powerful wall that offers great support utility as well as offensive pressure, and it has two very useful abilities that make it one of the more difficult walls to handle. It makes a great pivot with access to moves such as Teleport and Recover, and with Eviolite its defensive stats are nothing to scoff at.

 

Having said this, I don't believe that it is ban-worthy. Well-built Stall and Balance teams are more than equipped to handle Porygon through common moves such as toxic, taunt and knock off; and there are lots of offensive Pokemon which can at the very least force Porygon to switch, take huge chunks of its health, or threaten it with setup (examples being Metagross, Bisharp, Heracross, Medicham, Toxicroak, Rhyperior, Venomoth). Additionally, whilst Eviolite massively increases Porygon's general bulk and its access to Teleport makes it a great pivot, it also has significant a limitation in that it does not have passive recovery through leftovers, which is very exploitable with entry hazards and status conditions.

 

I've copy-pasted one of my posts from the PSL discord where I use the Tiering Etiquette Guide to elaborate further:
 

Spoiler

 

Defensive Uber definition:

 

"A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame." 

 

---

 

Senile's example:

 

"An example of a Defensive Uber: Lugia in 3rd generation.
 

It's stat spread of 106/130/154 defenses meant that it was easily one of the bulkiest pokemon available  (Agree, Porygon is probably the Pokemon with the highest all-around bulk in the tier). In addition to this, it had defensive options such as Recover/Rest, Calm Mind, and Reflect, as well as base 110 speed, meaning it naturally outsped a majority of pokemon before they could stop it from healing or setting up. (Porygon doesn't have access to defense-boosting moves other than gimmicks like Barrier or Dual Screens, but if the player chooses to run these then it loses offensive and defensive utility. It's also slow, it is naturally outsped by multiple walls in the tier [which can taunt or toxic it], and the large majority of offensive Pokemon, meaning that it doesn't recover-stall as freely as something like Crobat [or in this case Lugia]. Porygon is also affected by every type of entry hazard - whereas Lugia only takes damage from Stealth Rocks. The importance of hazards in breaking walls can't be overstated. Moreover, Porygon's optimal healing move is Recover which I concede is a powerful instant-heal move, but not using rest leaves it susceptible to toxic and other status conditions. This is why I do not think that you can feasibly argue that it consistently stalls a significant portion of the metagame.)
Lugia was a pokemon which could naturally outstall every relevant attacker through sheer base stats,  ("every relevant attacker" is not applicable to Porygon - there are several offensive and defensive Pokemon that can prevent this if played correctly)  the addition of defense boosting moves such as Reflect and Calm Mind meant that even set up pokemon wouldn't be able to break it.  (Not applicable)  Toxic wouldn't be able to stop it either if it ran Rest,  (Porygon doesn't run rest)  and attackers couldn't hope to beat any set with Recover as outdamaging the healing was a pointless endeavor.  (Special attackers yes, physical attackers no)  Naturally, decent offensive stats and high speed meant that Taunt wasn't a viable option either.  (Taunt is very effective against Porygon) 

 

Because of how unbreakable Lugia was, it was capable of stalling out any pokemon it was matched up against. As a result, it met the Defensive Characteristic and was banished to Ubers."

 


To qualify the comparison - I know you can't exactly draw direct parallels between Porygon and a legendary like Lugia, but if these are examples of characteristics that we should be looking out for in a defensive uber, then Porygon doesn't have half of them.

 

If anything, let this be an example of why the PokeMMO Tiering Etiquette guide is completely invalid and in desperate need of updating.

Edited by Zymogen
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1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Sees conversation about a defensive mon being banned from UU... realizes I am the council now...

 

Pushes glasses up... now this does bring a smile to my face. 

 

Now to set aside the cringe, I must admit I'm more disconnected from UU of all the tiers but I must say P2 has some incredible attributes and it's easy to see why it's risen to the top of the usage boards. I'll take a look at how P2 impacts the game and help fight the good fight if the techno duck appears to be nasty. Now with that said, y'all picked the wrong time to bring this up as a tier shift is coming soon (TM) and history has proven big tier changes have a way of postponing tier decisions. A suspect is always worthwhile but maybe not for a couple weeks as the new changes settle in. 

Now that's the JJ I wanna hear

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I will give my point of view as a player Of the level currently, I play a lot balanced and at Sometimes wall in UU, I use porygon a lot too, it is the poke that I use the most in tours (because of yanmega spam), and honestly from the point of view playing balanced, I do not think it is a great threat, it can eat all possible hazards, A toxic leaves him very screwed up, the burn also hurts and that is problematic when a poke cannot be recovered with lefty every time it enters hazards, before many mons it is useless, generally on the walls, and I see that if I am not wrong the whole level The physical body has a fighting type attack, and to be honest I would dare to say that almost no one plays it bold that's my point of view from my balanced style Putting myself in Umbra's place, a few days ago I was ranking in UU with hypper offense teams, god, because it's very annoying, especially the dowload one, the trace one controlled it more, I ran into games where every time porygon entered it only meant that a poke Mine fell, and even being offensive I held out a lot, and it was not easy to put in a fight because it left him very touched, literally, playing hypper offense against a pory is being at a disadvantage from turn 1, and here it is problematic for that style of play - I sincerely believe that because it is a threat or not depending on the style of play you use, for a balanced game it is usually not that much of a problem or I see it that way, but for an offensive it usually yes, but I still see a way to power He, some physical attackers can still keep it at bay, the point is that they are very few and maybe that makes the problem more difficult, but from my point of view, I do not see it as to be banned.

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8 hours ago, Umbramol said:

Porygon2 to BL1

I obviously support this opinion and have been for quite a while now.

All the inputs I've read on this thread have been very accurate about the question, and from very relevant people UU wise so I appreciate that. As an HO player, obviously Porygon2 seems like the most broken thing in the tier to me.

 

For which reasons ?

 

[ 1 ] The mon's bulk is absurd and its only weakness is super easy to compensate 

It can't even be oneshotted by CloseCombat / High Jump Kick if not for LifeOrb/Band/Guts boost AND Stab

The only mons we use that can achieve that are Heracross, Medicham, Hitmons (irrelevant tho) which are all countered by the same mons (Gligar/Dusclops/Crobat), since you can't afford to predict against p2, and why can't you ?

 

[ 2 ] The mon's offensive pressure is similar to one of an offensive mon even tho its the bulkiest wall in the tier

With Download the mon can 1v1 any offensive mon not previously mentioned (+Bisharp) 

The offensive pressure is such some offensive mons rather run 29 IV on def and 30 in spedef (those with even stats like Rotom Heat) to not give a free boost.

It also has a wide coverage with many VIABLE (I insist) moves that deal with different portions of the metagame, most common being BoltBeam (aka best combo of move in the game), tri-attack for a haxing stab, psychic for the fighting switch ins, foul play ...

 

The alternative ability offers a solid option against Staraptor/Arcanine which are checked by their own abilities, but can also be deadly if p2 copies Clef/Roserade/Snorlax ability (rendering it immune to statuses which is the main way to cripple it).

The tier also benefits from some very viable clerics in Roserade, Vaporeon and Lanturn that can easily cure status from your p2 so if you end up toxic'd it's not like you're done for

 

About "P2 is useless against walls" let me ask you which because it's not useless vs most :

Vaporeon, Crobat, Bronzong, Forretress, Empoleon, Jellicent don't like to switch in on Discharge that much 

Flygon, Druddigon, Donphan are forced out by download until you have info on Ice Beam

 

The best answers remain Lanturn and Snorlax, but let's remember p2 might still use Teleport and get free momentum on those are they are mons that can very easily be pressured out 

 

Last but not least, Jellicent the most viable ghost mon that switches into Triattack and retaliates with taunt+toxic (but can still lose if para'd enough by discharge) is most likely going to OU next month (I've been dead is it still high enough in OU?)

 

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29 minutes ago, TohnR said:

 ?

 :

Vaporeon, Crobat, Bronzong, Forretress, Empoleon, Jellicent don't like to switch in on Discharge that much 

Flygon, Druddigon, Donphan are forced out by download until you have info on Ice Beam

 

 

 

 

 

bronzong , crobat, empoleon(Knock off) jellicen and vaporeon have tóxic, in 1v1 pory trace Is lose 

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3 hours ago, Huargensy said:

bronzong , crobat, empoleon(Knock off) jellicen and vaporeon have tóxic, in 1v1 pory trace Is lose 

It's not that big of a flaw for a wall to be subject to being toxic'd, you have plenty of ways to avoid it.

If you said "Snorlax comes for free and toxic you" I'd say, sure Snorlax is a problem for it

But all these mons just don't come in on a discharge for free, so imo they are not a good enough reason to keep p2

 

You typically won't achieve much with trace Pory full wall vs a stall team, just like my good old Mamo will achieve nothing if my opponent has Zong Rotom and Slowbro, yet it's still one of the best mons in the tier (talking bout mamo).

 However in return they both give you a crucial edge in most other matchups (talking about both mamo and p2 here)

 

Again Huar I said your arguments are valid and I respect your opinion, I just disagree which is totally fine :)

 

EDIT : Also I'm kinda thinking right now there's gonna be a huge tiershift and I don't know if we shouldn't wait just 1 month to see what happens first, but that's just my opinion

Edited by TohnR
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12 hours ago, TohnR said:

 

 

Por lo general, no lograrás mucho con trace Pory full wall contra un equipo de stall, al igual que mi viejo Mamo no logrará nada si mi oponente tiene Zong Rotom y Slowbro, pero sigue siendo uno de los mejores mons en el tier (hablando de mamo ).

 Sin embargo, a cambio, ambos te dan una ventaja crucial en la mayoría de los otros enfrentamientos (hablando de mamo y p2 aquí)

 

 

Actually, when I spoke of the walls and how useless it was, I was referring to trace, perhaps I was not misunderstood, on the other hand,

Why don't we do a smogon-style UU player vote? I do not know, it would be fun or at least of those who have the ability to comment and give votes on those, lf Tc by tiers

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11 hours ago, Thenavarro said:

 BAN pZ please, A very difficult Pokémon to stop and on top of that it has the factor that always freezes

If you complain about the freeze then also ask to ban p2, since it also abuses triattack, lol

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4 hours ago, Huargensy said:

Si te quejas de la congelación, también pide prohibir p2, ya que también abusa del triataque, lol

but p2 is not that difficult to stop, pZ I think only bronzong careful stops it well and if it freezes you were fine, a ghost too but you run the risk of being predicted by a dark pulse

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Just a reminder we have a thread for PZ discussion, lets not split it into 2 places.

On 4/19/2021 at 5:36 AM, RysPicz said:

PZ was just brought down. Give it time, people need to adapt (or at least try). It isn't in UU for long enough to instantly warrant a ban imo

If you're serious, I can't ever tell, I actually agree, but we will find out if TC is of a similar mindset.  Plan on putting usage movements if any up on the 25th and getting discussion kicked off then. 

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3 hours ago, Munya said:

Just a reminder we have a thread for PZ discussion, lets not split it into 2 places.

If you're serious, I can't ever tell, I actually agree, but we will find out if TC is of a similar mindset.  Plan on putting usage movements if any up on the 25th and getting discussion kicked off then. 

Yes Munyu I am serious

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