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UU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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Porygon2 to BL1 I believe p2 is unhealthy for the tier.  It falls under defensive uber characteristics(as stated by the tiering etiquette). Its typing has only one weakness, it can function

Mamoswine should not be brought down to UU. Remember guys when we had Haxorus? We were scared of SD and DD sets, while the CB one shined the most and eventually made it leave the tier. The same thing

Did you even read my post? Where did I write anything about dual stab Hera? Where did I mention Stone Edge? How the hell Jelli, Clops and Weezing are answers to +2 guts boosted Facade and N-Slash?

No Metagross in UU please <3

That's like the worst idea I've ever heard.

Mamoswine is predictable and has limited coverage but Metagross come on ...

 

If we're talking about moving things down from OU, Arcanine UU when ? xD

All his sets are outclassed in OU I don't know how he's still in 6% of teams

Edited by TohnR
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2 hours ago, TohnR said:

No Metagross in UU please <3

That's like the worst idea I've ever heard.

Mamoswine is predictable and has limited coverage but Metagross come on ...

 

If we're talking about moving things down from OU, Arcanine UU when ? xD

All his sets are outclassed in OU I don't know how he's still in 6% of teams

Pretty sure Arcanine would be fine in UU if it was supposed to drop at some point. 

 

However, I really feel like there is one broken mon in UU which is just disgustingly overpowered and that's Heracross. You literally can't defend yourself whatsoever, it shreds both offensive and defensive teams alike with SD/ Cc/ Facade/ N-word slash set (flame orb held item) also getting perfect coverage from it. Once it's out, it will hurt something really bad or outright kill. I was going through my UU box few days ago and I found myself severely limited when it comes to teambuilding:

"I can't use this this this this and this and that because it's a free Heracross switch in". For example, I don't mind having a glaring Crobat switchin despite it's insane usage as I can easily countermeasure that with another mon. But not for Heracross. I'm on phone so no calcs this time, but every UU player that knows the tier is well aware of Heracross' power which has stepped into offensive uber territory. 

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4 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Pretty sure Arcanine would be fine in UU if it was supposed to drop at some point. 

 

However, I really feel like there is one broken mon in UU which is just disgustingly overpowered and that's Heracross. You literally can't defend yourself whatsoever, it shreds both offensive and defensive teams alike with SD/ Cc/ Facade/ N-word slash set (flame orb held item) also getting perfect coverage from it. Once it's out, it will hurt something really bad or outright kill. I was going through my UU box few days ago and I found myself severely limited when it comes to teambuilding:

"I can't use this this this this and this and that because it's a free Heracross switch in". For example, I don't mind having a glaring Crobat switchin despite it's insane usage as I can easily countermeasure that with another mon. But not for Heracross. I'm on phone so no calcs this time, but every UU player that knows the tier is well aware of Heracross' power which has stepped into offensive uber territory. 

Crobat and yanmega 4x resist both heracross stabs and outspeed on the return for 1hkos.  Predicting whether heracross will stab or stone edge is good enough.  If you can't do that because you rely on stall instead of predictions just use dusclops or jellicent.  If you find out heracross is running night slash over stone edge then just go back to crobat to wall. 

 

And we haven't even talked about gligar or weezing yet which both tank even sword dance boosted hits from all stab and coverage moves.

 

 

The thing about heracross is it can't afford to predict wrong that many times before it runs out of health.  If it stone edges on something like a gigalith expecting a switch then its done.  If it close combats on a switch to a crobat then it only get a couple more shots to switch out and try again.  It doesn't have a priority move to bail it out.

 

There's enough options to stop it unless you predict horribly at which point you deserve to lose.

 

If you want to talk about something offensive thats closer to being unfair, azumarill can just autowin in a lot of a lot of late-game situations with the lack of team preview.  Sure, people will say its walled by jellicent and slowbro, but there's actually a set that 1hkos both.  Even if there wasn't, thats a lot less answers than heracross has.  Still think its fine, but definitely more of a threat than heracross since the person with the heracross has to make the better predictions in order to win while the person with azumarill just has to open up a sweeping lane and bait in a belly drum chance.  Once the azu hits the field for the first time its too late.

Edited by Aard
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Ok. Here I go!

First, as stated above, I dont think an 85 base speed mon fits any uber offense characteristic (Easily revenge killed)

Either way, for those who like stall, Pokemons that can safely switch into Heracross:

- Gligar (The best counter for any type of heracross. You might need aerial ace on it for 100% countering but since its a stab move, its not that useless outside of Hera)

-Dusclops (Can beat burned heracross every time unless it switches on Swords dance on a night slash set. Even on that instance, heracross doesn´t enjoy the hp it has left

Pokemons that can come in unless if predicted.

-Crobat: Eats CC, Night slashes, and forces out all types of the most common heracrosses, not fearing a SD on switch. It gets badly damaged on facade, however.

- Weezing: Same as Crobat, except it doesnt exactly instantly force Heracross out. 

- Jellicent: Crobat, weezings, gligar, etc etc kinda force Heracross to facade if it wants to predict, so Jellicent gets a special mention here. It eats everything heracross can do except night slash.

- Yanmega: Pretty much the same as Crobat. Eats all other moves with ease besides facade, and doesnt mind a swords dance on switch. It also outspeeds heracross.

-Forretress: One of the issues with Heracross is that spamming CC isnt often the best idea cause most of the time, opponent is switching on something that either resists it or is immune to it. Forretress comes in here because it doesn´t mind any of Heracross´s coverage moves, and even if you fail the predict and eat a CC, it barely gets a chance of 2hkoing (Note Im already assuming a burnt Heracross), while Gyro ball has also some chance of ohkoing (After burn damage)

-Mnadibuzz: Probably the weakest of the bunch. It eats facade and Night slash, and can ohko Heracross with bbird or use the fear factor to roost. Swords dance + cc Ohkoes it however, once Heracross is burnt. Not really a counter or close to ir, but worth mentioning.

Other stuff:

Heracross has no recovery (Besides rest lol), which paired with eventual rocks and the forever burn damage will severely limit Heracross switch-ins ability. 

Rocky Helmet: An eventual rocky helmet on some predicted moves can limit even more Heracross switch-ins ability.

But pachima, what if Heracross doesn´t come in and just come as revenge-killing?

-Sadly Heracross isn´t revenge killing most of offense stuff because of its not so goddly speed.

Lastly, this is not to say Heracross isn´t a good Pokemon. Far from it, I believe its one of the best UU has to offer and its usage proves it so. However, I also believe it has enough flaws to not be considered banworthy of this tier.

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5 minutes ago, pachima said:

it barely gets a chance of 2hkoing (Note Im already assuming a burnt Heracross), while Gyro ball has also some chance of ohkoing (After burn damage)

252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 93-111 (51 - 60.9%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (85 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 84-99 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

 

 

Edited by Zymogen
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36 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Did you even read my post? Where did I write anything about dual stab Hera? Where did I mention Stone Edge? How the hell Jelli, Clops and Weezing are answers to +2 guts boosted Facade and N-Slash?

 

Do you play UU my dude?

I didn't read your post because I just kind of assumed you'd be arguing using the best sets.   But I guess I will now. 

 

I'm tired of people pretending these facade sets are really good.  They're not.  You cant use it for the first turn you come in, then you only have 1 more coverage move to use if you want sword dance.  Your hornless set just loses to new things like slowbro when you sd on the switch turn.

 

close combat

facade

night slash

sword dance

 

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 300-354 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

It doesn't even need a sword dance if it has megahorn.

252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 204-240 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

Also just loses to defensive crobat without stone edge if you facade on the switch.

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 140-165 (72.9 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Guts Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 200-236 (104.1 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

close combat

megahorn

stone edge/night slash

sword dance/night slash

 

 

I do play uu and I'd much rather see a facade set because it shows me I have an easy battle ahead since the heracross is trying to do too much and losing coverage in the process.  Even Choice band heracross that tries to predict status and stack damage is better than that weird facade set.

 

 

Edited by Aard
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5 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 93-111 (51 - 60.9%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (85 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 84-99 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

 

 

1- Im assuming Jolly Heracross, since Adamant makes it even worse when it comes to some important speedmarks such as 145.

2- In my Pokemon games, at least, when you CC twice, your defense drops twice as well.

3- Forretress can, and should run -speed if using gyro ball.

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2 minutes ago, pachima said:

1- Im assuming Jolly Heracross, since Adamant makes it even worse when it comes to some important speedmarks such as 145.

2- In my Pokemon games, at least, when you CC twice, your defense drops twice as well.

3- Forretress can, and should run -speed if using gyro ball.

1- it was my assumption that most heracross ran adamant 

2- what? forretress dies after the 2nd cc in 92.6% of cases if adamant so how are you getting a gyro off when hera is -2? 

3- check it yourself, that was relaxed forretress lol

 

Edited by Zymogen
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33 minutes ago, pachima said:

If there is one thing that Heracross is better than Medicham at, is its speed.

Running ada on it kinda ruins it and imo makes it a worse option than Medicham. (Without the 90% accuracy risk I guess)

Ok so Jolly Heracross:

 

252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 85-102 (46.7 - 56%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

  • Forretress is one of the easiest mons in the game to chip, especially if it's being used as a spinner and/or is running shed shell

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 42-51 (27 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 210-248 (101.9 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

  • Even if Jellicent correctly predicts a facade, there is nothing stopping the Heracross from then setting up in its face and OHKOing in return unless it is running hex which still only does 40% max

252 Atk Guts Heracross Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 48-58 (32.6 - 39.4%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 94-112 (63.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

  • If Dusclops comes in on a night slash, all Heracross has to do is SD and take one Seismic Toss, and the Clops has a very high chance at being dead assuming 0 previous chip and no hazards

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 74-88 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 68-80 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

  • The only way Weezing beats Heracross is if it comes in on a CC or the Heracross is already severely chipped
Edited by Zymogen
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17 hours ago, pachima said:

Ok. Here I go!

First, as stated above, I dont think an 85 base speed mon fits any uber offense characteristic (Easily revenge killed)

Either way, for those who like stall, Pokemons that can safely switch into Heracross:

- Gligar (The best counter for any type of heracross. You might need aerial ace on it for 100% countering but since its a stab move, its not that useless outside of Hera)

-Dusclops (Can beat burned heracross every time unless it switches on Swords dance on a night slash set. Even on that instance, heracross doesn´t enjoy the hp it has left

Pokemons that can come in unless if predicted.

-Crobat: Eats CC, Night slashes, and forces out all types of the most common heracrosses, not fearing a SD on switch. It gets badly damaged on facade, however.

- Weezing: Same as Crobat, except it doesnt exactly instantly force Heracross out. 

- Jellicent: Crobat, weezings, gligar, etc etc kinda force Heracross to facade if it wants to predict, so Jellicent gets a special mention here. It eats everything heracross can do except night slash.

- Yanmega: Pretty much the same as Crobat. Eats all other moves with ease besides facade, and doesnt mind a swords dance on switch. It also outspeeds heracross.

-Forretress: One of the issues with Heracross is that spamming CC isnt often the best idea cause most of the time, opponent is switching on something that either resists it or is immune to it. Forretress comes in here because it doesn´t mind any of Heracross´s coverage moves, and even if you fail the predict and eat a CC, it barely gets a chance of 2hkoing (Note Im already assuming a burnt Heracross), while Gyro ball has also some chance of ohkoing (After burn damage)

-Mnadibuzz: Probably the weakest of the bunch. It eats facade and Night slash, and can ohko Heracross with bbird or use the fear factor to roost. Swords dance + cc Ohkoes it however, once Heracross is burnt. Not really a counter or close to ir, but worth mentioning.

Other stuff:

Heracross has no recovery (Besides rest lol), which paired with eventual rocks and the forever burn damage will severely limit Heracross switch-ins ability. 

Rocky Helmet: An eventual rocky helmet on some predicted moves can limit even more Heracross switch-ins ability.

But pachima, what if Heracross doesn´t come in and just come as revenge-killing?

-Sadly Heracross isn´t revenge killing most of offense stuff because of its not so goddly speed.

Lastly, this is not to say Heracross isn´t a good Pokemon. Far from it, I believe its one of the best UU has to offer and its usage proves it so. However, I also believe it has enough flaws to not be considered banworthy of this tier.

Gligar is semi- legit. However, it needs to be at full HP at all time in order to safely switch into Heracross:

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 108-128 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Meaning, Gligar has to be at 87% HP and more, all the time, to effectively counter Heracross. Meaning- again- if it switches into rocks once and takes even the smallest chip while being forces to switch, it isn't a counter anymore. If it switches into Hera's facade, it's gone- second kills. If it switches into a swords dance- it's gone, +2 facade kills.
 
Dusclops is a setup bait... I don't understand how can you treat this mon as counter. It's a sitting duck that induces status which only makes Heracross even more potent. Dusclops cannot win against Heracross.
252 Atk Guts Heracross Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 48-58 (32.6 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

The next turn Heracross can safely set up SD and kill the Clops. Night Shade does like 33%, Fire Punch maybe 10% more. I would gladly give away 50% of my health to obliterate Clops and have a +2 Heracross out in the battle.

 

Crobat is the most legit example of a counter and probably Heracross is one of the main reasons of it's unnaturally high usage. It can switch into both Night Slash and Close Combat but if it switches into facade, it's most likely gone:

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 140-165 (72.9 - 85.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

(and this is assuming the Crobat is 252 HP).

 

Weezing is fun to destroy with Facade. It's not even a check. Scenario:

Weezing switches in, Heracross goes Facade. Next turn weezing can attack, as Heracross either SDances, night slashes or even uses facade again. Heracross takes around 50% damage total, Weezing is down in the next turn.

 

Please explain to me what Jellicent can do in return to Heracross. Other than dying to +2 Night slash or 2x Night slash.

 

Yanmega dies to facade, it hates rocks too- field has to be clean and it has to switch into CC or SD. It will never switch into Heracross unless you're a suicider, super lucky, god of predicts or maybe just plain stupid.

 

Lmfao Forretress. There is not a single scenario where Forret can come on top out of the battle with Hera. If it switches into CC, it dies to second one. If it switches into Night Slash, Heracross SDances as you Gyro ball and then kills you. If it switches into facade, same situation. If it switches into SD, Heracross can break the sturdy if rocks are not in place and finish with CC.

0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (93 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 60-72 (38.7 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

 

Mandibuzz again can counter Heracross only if Rocks are not on field and it has to switch into either Facade or Night Slash. If Heracross SDances or CCs, your check is gone.

 

Your list of pokes capable of countering Heracross is scarce. Please don't talk to me about "predicting" because on the other side there's a living, thinking person as well who predicts you too, using the predicting argument is a double-edged sword. You're not playing against potato AI. Only pokes I can perceive as legit counters are Gligar (only at full HP) and possibly Crobat.

 

About your speed argument, look at UU and look at it's usage. There are literally 5 pokes in top 20 usage mons which are faster than Heracross and only 2 of them are capable of effectively revenge-killing it every single time (namely: Crobat and Typhlosion. Weavile needs a high roll on icicle crash (while also it has to be CB), Flygon needs a CB as well and another high roll on Fire Punch and Krookodile cannot effectively kill it either). And Typhlosion isn't much used due to presence of Jello, Gigalith, Snorlax and Lanturn in the tier (oh and now also Mantine). Leaving only Crobat as an effective revenge killer, capable of forcing it out every single time, in the entire tier.

17 hours ago, pachima said:

1- Im assuming Jolly Heracross, since Adamant makes it even worse when it comes to some important speedmarks such as 145.

2- In my Pokemon games, at least, when you CC twice, your defense drops twice as well.

3- Forretress can, and should run -speed if using gyro ball.

If Heracross CCs twice on your Forretress, then it takes damage. I think. And it dies.

 

 

I'm sorry Xatu  Aard but I'll just disregard your post because it seems like you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about- I just went through history of UU tournaments and haven't found a single game you played until I stumbled upon a Community Combat in December where you got first-rounded (and lack of facade on your "good set heracross" made you lose it, mind you). Looks like to me that your "I do play UU" is kinda a fat lie and I'm looking forward to playing you in an official tournament or during TT.

 

 

I'm not theorymoning here in this discussion, I'm mainly a UU player that covers UU for Aura during TT (and I do play officials as well- last 2 in which I played I won). I'm pouring here my experience forged into thoughts and conclusions. I'm happy to discuss if you have reasonable arguments, hopefully backed up by experience.

Edited by RysPicz
I embarris.
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6 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I'm sorry Xatu  Aard but I'll just disregard your post because it seems like you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about- I just went through history of UU tournaments and haven't found a single game you played until I stumbled upon a Community Combat in December where you got first-rounded (and lack of facade on your "good set heracross" made you lose it, mind you). Looks like to me that your "I do play UU" is kinda a fat lie and I'm looking forward to playing you in an official tournament or during TT.

 

 

I'm not theorymoning here in this discussion, I'm mainly a UU player that covers UU for Aura during TT (and I do play officials as well- last 2 in which I played I won). I'm pouring here my experience forged into thoughts and conclusions. I'm happy to discuss if you have reasonable arguments, hopefully backed up by experience.

Its funny you cared enough about making an ad hominem argument to look through months of tourneys but can't come up with any response about why your worse set is good.

 

 

So here's this:

 

People have a skewed perspective of skill in this game.  Tournies are just who scouts the most, who has the most money invested (real or otherwise) to create the biggest poll of mons, and who has 5 hours of time to burn on a consistent basis.  Skill is a tertiary component in both of those formats and it really shows when battle with "top level" players in single battles are often easier to beat in terms of prediction than 1300 level players on showdown.  You just proved in this post how far you expand your game in the area of scouting so it makes me wonder how strong the other areas really are. 

 


 

Heracross is bad for scouting because you can't flat wall it and actually have to make reasonable predictions to beat it down.  That might be why you want it banned.

 

Anyway, I'll look forward to playing you too if I remember who you are.

 

If you actually want to make any sort of point as to why your heracross set isn't just functionally worse when youre in battle trying to predict opponents moves, I'll hear it.  Right now, it sounds like your central ban argument is based on a heracross set that not as popular because its worse and your justification for that set is that you're good at scouting.
 

 

 

 

Also, want to throw out there that specs Jellicent is a viable set people run since it has a wide movepool and good stabs.  Just assuming you can set up on any jellicent is wrong.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 166-196 (107 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 100-118 (64.5 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

 

Let's be honest, even a defensive jellicent with limited spatk investment beats heracross unless hera sword dances or night slashes on the switch at which point switching to something like crobat or attacking depending on the predict still rescues the situation.  Definitely not setup bait.

60 SpA Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 73-87 (47 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

 

There's just things like that you ignore with almost all of the mons we've talked about and its not worth going through every single one if your response is just going to be retreating to scout mode to create ad hominem attacks.  Based on the damage, saying jellicent is setup bait is just false.

 

It would be bad if people not wanting to deal with annoying argumentative techniques resulted in an unjust heracross ban.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Aard
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16 minutes ago, Aard said:

Its funny you cared enough about making an ad hominem argument to look through months of tourneys but can't come up with any response about why your worse set is good.

Okay xatu, I will help you to understand your mistake and also explain my thought process behind what I wrote.

 

I cared about taking a look at your history of participation in competitive UU tournaments to validate your claim "I play UU" which has been quite obviously proven otherwise, therefore I presume you do not have the experience with the tier itself to know which pokes are used currently with which movesets, especially because you keep claiming that your odd Dualstab + Stone Edge set is better than CC/ Facade/ Night Slash and I will prove you right now why are you wrong. I simply didn't bother with deeper analysis of your post due to lack of respect from yourself and not reading mine- you get what you sow xatu.

 

24 minutes ago, Aard said:

So here's this:

People have a skewed perspective of skill in this game.  Tournies are just who scouts the most, who has the most money invested (real or otherwise) to create the biggest poll of mons, and who has 5 hours of time to burn on a consistent basis.  Skill is a tertiary component in both of those formats and it really shows when battle with "top level" players in single battles are often easier to beat in terms of prediction than 1300 level players on showdown.  You just proved in this post how far you expand your game in the area of scouting so it makes me wonder how strong the other areas really are.

Tourneys are not about who scouts most but about knowledge of the meta and about knowing your opponent- but not his team, his playstyle. And this is coming from a guy that won multiple tournaments (few even recently in different tiers) and took his part in winning multiple team tournament fights for his team as well, additionally putting a brick to an overall victory, just to answer your wondering about how strong my other areas are. I have few pre-made UU teams which I tend to use from time to time regardless of the opponent, so I hope your scouting argument crumbles right now, though I digress a little.

 

35 minutes ago, Aard said:

Heracross is bad for scouting because you can't flat wall it and actually have to make reasonable predictions to beat it down.  That might be why you want it banned.

Anyway, I'll look forward to playing you too if I remember who you are.

If you actually want to make any sort of point as to why your heracross set isn't just functionally worse when youre in battle trying to predict opponents moves, I'll hear it.  Right now, it sounds like your central ban argument is based on a heracross set that not as popular because its worse and your justification for that set is that you're good at scouting.

Heracross isn't bad for scouting; it doesn't matter if you have scouted Heracross or not. It uses one particular set every time and it's on 25% of the teams, meaning you can be prepared for it and yet it will still plow your ass. I don't really understand where you get your idiotic assumptions from, are you reading my mind xatu to tell why I want Heracross banned? I'm a Heracross fan, I use it very often even in my OU fights and heck I love it, but I see a broken pokemon which is an offensive uber that negatively impacts the competitive metagame. This is the reason. You can shove your assumptions and claims into a certain part of your body where your head seems to be as well and I strongly advise to pull it out for your own sake, xatu.

 

If you don't know who I am then you are probably more ignorant and competitively impotent than I thought and I'm starting to think you probably don't deserve my attention at all xatu. But tearing your post apart and proving you wrong is kinda fun so I'll just continue ^_^

 

The set I mentioned is the most popular. If you would play the tier or at least spectate the tournaments, you would know it, xatu.

CC/ Megahorn/ Stone Edge/ SD is your set if I deduce right from your previous messages. You are walled by both Jello and Dusclops:

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 67-79 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 149-176 (71.9 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Whereas Night Slash is a guaranteed kill, without even the risk of low accuracy.

 

The only mon that is covered in UU by your Megahorn set is Slowbro (and only Slowbro) which sits at staggering 4.73% usage (I even bothered to check it!). With Facade you have a weapon to kill the mons I mentioned in my previous post- Gligar, Weezing, now Mantine as well (surely much more reliable than stone edge). Additionally, if you get scouted with that odd set, someone smart can bring a Golurk and have a free switch on you every time. Oh, by the way, Slowbro needs to be at absolutely full HP to live Heracross' assault and it has much worse situation than for example Gligar- if it switches on SD, it's fucked, if it switches on Facade, it's fucked and if it switches on n-word slash it's fucked. Slowbro cannot even KO Heracross back without a crit. Hell why am I even arguing about a 4% usage poke

 

Conclusion: CC/ Night Slash/ Facade set is unwallable, provides the best coverage and damage potential.

49 minutes ago, Aard said:

Also, want to throw out there that specs Jellicent is a viable set people run since it has a wide movepool and good stabs.  Just assuming you can set up on any jellicent is wrong.

I agree that Specs Jellicent is a viable set, but how often do you see one? :thonking:

And about your calc, I have a message from my teammate:

50 minutes ago, Aard said:

+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 150-177 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after burn damage

80a4e5853d29bd8b28acd255d2e53ffc.png

And we both are very curious how your Jellicent got +1 special attack and specs at the same time.

51 minutes ago, Aard said:

Let's be honest, even a defensive jellicent with limited spatk investment beats heracross unless hera sword dances or night slashes on the switch at which point switching to something like crobat or attacking depending on the predict still rescues the situation.  Definitely not setup bait.

60 SpA Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 73-87 (47 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

 

There's just things like that you ignore with almost all of the mons we've talked about and its not worth going through every single one if your response is just going to be retreating to scout mode to create ad hominem attacks.  Based on the damage, saying jellicent is setup bait is just false.

 

It would be bad if people not wanting to deal with annoying argumentative techniques resulted in an unjust heracross ban.

This is another case where your lack of experience in the tier pours out. Which Jellicent carries special attack? Have you seen a Hex Jellicent as well lately?

I can also make a blatantly idiotic calc with unrealistic situation to prove my point like you just did and this leads us to nowhere.

 

Sorry xatu but your arguments are invalid, so are your claims and assumptions. Additionally, you really are a hypocrite, saying that I ignore stuff when you blatantly confirmed you didn't even read my post before responding.

 

Now I read your post and I just put it apart. Happy, xatu?

 

Come back when you will start playing the tier and get to know how things work, maybe your absolute lack of competitive successes has something to do with it xatu? :thonking:

Link to post
58 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

And about your calc, I have a message from my teammateAnd we both are very curious how your Jellicent got +1 special attack and specs at the same time.

Yeah I'm not sure on that one.  I've noticed the damage calculator messing that up a few times now when I stick specs on something it will randomly add a +1. 

 

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 134-158 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after burn damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 166-196 (107 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

You still got ko options and psychic is absolutely viable on that set with roserade and crobat around. 

 

And hex on defensive jellicent is fine.  Just because people aren't countering with the right sets doesn't mean its broken.

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11 minutes ago, Aard said:

Yeah I'm not sure on that one.  I've noticed the damage calculator messing that up a few times now when I stick specs on something it will randomly add a +1. 

 

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 134-158 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after burn damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 166-196 (107 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

You still got ko options and psychic is absolutely viable on that set with roserade and crobat around. 

 

And hex on defensive jellicent is fine.  Just because people aren't countering with the right sets doesn't mean its broken.

That water spout calc is redundant - that's assuming that heracross would switch into jellicent which it never should (unless jelli is already at low hp, in which case water spout again would not work)

 

E: psychic is not viable on a specs set because you lose either surf, shadow ball or hp grass/elec which are all necessary

Edited by Zymogen
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Just now, Zymogen said:

That water spout calc is redundant - that's assuming that heracross would switch into jellicent which it never should

Its for if the heracross thinks it can sword dance after jellicent switches in on a close combat.  Psychic is the safer option though and is viable because of roserade/venusaur. 

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What i don't get is how Pachima is the only rational and logical guy in this whole thread. 

 

Heracross is healthy and is a great mon nobody can deny that but it's far from banworthy like Pachima explained

 

now nextt discussion pls when new update?

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5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Thoughts on Staraptor in UU? Looks super broken on paper, but in practice not that much imo

Scarf gets walled, banded is a dangerous wallbreaker, but easier to revenge kill, also get huge recoil by its main stab/ rocks

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