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UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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pachima   
13 hours ago, Zenor said:

Why is Porygon Z still banned from UU ? It was banned because it was too powerful in UU back then. But now the tier has changed and we got one more special wall to handle its stab and coverage (Chansey) + every other spe. wall that were already in the tier (Gigalith, calm Bronzong). Not even mentioning the possible RKs or mons that can deal a lot of damage which are in UU now but weren't at the time (i.e: Bisharp). Its normal typing also doesn't give it any advantage for dealing with status or hazards, so revenge killing Porygon Z is not as difficult as it may seem.

 

I mean, If something as broken as Haxorus gets stupidly tested in UU, I don't understand why Porygon Z is still banned.

I still laugh at porygon-z ban,

Also TC bans are fair.

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Gunthug   

@Zenor I actually think we discussed bringing it back down but I can't remember what the consensus was - there were certainly TC members who thought it deserved another chance since, as you said, the meta has changed.

 

However let's not draw a false equivalence between haxorus and poryz - we got to see poryz shred UU for weeks before we decided yeah, it's banworthy. Hax, on the other hand, had never been in the tier and so the standard for a quick, test-less ban is much higher

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LeZenor   
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Gunthug said:

However let's not draw a false equivalence between haxorus and poryz

Well, I do agree with that statement. Porygon-Z and Haxorus are not equivalent ; one definitely shouldn't be in UU and one should. I'll let you find out which one is which.

 

Using the % usage as main reason to move Haxorus while neglecting how the rest of the tier would deal with it is just ridiculous imo. It can litteraly sweep, outspeed and wallbreak the entire tier with only two coverage moves; the other offensive UU threats need to be incredibly more versatile to do the same.

 

Edited by Zenor

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Gunthug   
1 hour ago, Zenor said:

Well, I do agree with that statement. Porygon-Z and Haxorus are not equivalent ; one definitely shouldn't be in UU and one should. I'll let you find out which one is which.

 

Using the % usage as main reason to move Haxorus while neglecting how the rest of the tier would deal with it is just ridiculous imo. It can litteraly sweep, outspeed and wallbreak the entire tier with only two coverage moves; the other offensive UU threats need to be incredibly more versatile to do the same.

 

Stop taking comedy classes from gb

 

We didn't neglect how the rest of the tier would deal with it, but thats just speculation. Speculation can be wrong (and you don't have to have played very long to remember a TC decision involving speculation that ended up wrong).

 

So, for me at least, the safe move was to test it - since, with a pokemon like haxorus (as opposed to something like blastoise in the old NU) it would be immediately apparent if it was too powerful. I think zebra pointed this out at one point in the discussion - whats the worst it can do? Destroy teams that run 5 walls for a tournament or two? 

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Yeah, let's not hyper react here. Each proper test needs a couple of games to people to make up their minds.

 

Based on my experience, I have to say I do think Haxorus is too strong for UU, though. The worst thing about it is that it threatens all kinds of playstyles. Swords Dance set plows through UU's defensive play pretty easily and Dragon Dance set sweeps the sweepers. Unlike in OU which is a very priority heavy metagame, revenge killing a Dragon Danced Haxorus can become quite a problem unless you pack a Ice Shard Weavile in your team. While it is true that Bronzong and Forretress check Haxorus pretty nicely (especially Dragon Dance variants by giving that Gyro Ball damage), I think the worst thing about these Pokemon are the lack of longevity for their lack of reliable recovery. All you need to do is keep Haxorus in the back until it's the right moment and wreck havoc. To make Haxorus' work even easier I'd imagine Magneton becoming super viable to trap these two aforementioned Pokemon.

 

Also what's up with this pointless parallel to Porygon-Z? I don't think Haxorus really beat you so hard that you got a temporary amnesia? Porygon-Z was super broken, alright. It was a Pokemon that always guaranteed a kill or two per game because nothing switched into it other than Bronzong. And stop bringing up Chansey, it doesn't reliably even wall Porygon-Z.

 

+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 198-234 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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pachima   
3 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

252 HP Chansey

 

I trusted you.

Y u do this ?

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4 minutes ago, pachima said:

I trusted you.

Y u do this ?

Well, if you want a 252 Defense/252 Sp. Defense Chansey, then you aren't all that much better off either.

 

+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 158-186 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

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pachima   
2 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Well, if you want a 252 Defense/252 Sp. Defense Chansey, then you aren't all that much better off either.

 

+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 158-186 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

Nah. Its just that the whole 252 hp chansey gets me cancer.

Also, leftovers when.

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Zymogen   
2 hours ago, pachima said:

Nah. Its just that the whole 252 hp chansey gets me cancer.

Also, leftovers when.

How does cancer get cancer

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gbwead   
10 hours ago, Gunthug said:

Stop taking comedy classes from gb

plz

 

6 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

While it is true that Bronzong and Forretress check Haxorus pretty nicely (especially Dragon Dance variants by giving that Gyro Ball damage), I think the worst thing about these Pokemon are the lack of longevity for their lack of reliable recovery.

They are not even checks. I have seen plenty of Haxorus switch in on Bronzong/Forretress and take them down with a SD set. Forretress is especially terrible against Haxorus and usually volt switches out because it can't do anything to it. On top of that, everyone that has ever played UU knows how important Bronzong is to any defensive core, so the fact that Haxorus can get rid of it so effortlessly is pretty dumb.

 

6 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

Porygon-Z was super broken, alright. It was a Pokemon that always guaranteed a kill or two per game because nothing switched into it other than Bronzong. 

Gigalith?

 

6 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

And stop bringing up Chansey, it doesn't reliably even wall Porygon-Z.

+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 198-234 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Considering how irrelevant Nasty Plot PZ was during the test compared to Choice Spec PZ or Choice Scarf PZ, it's a pretty big deal that it would now be forced to run it just to stand a chance against Chansey. 

 

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Gunthug   
37 minutes ago, gbwead said:

 just to stand a chance against Chansey. 

 

See what I mean 

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3 hours ago, gbwead said:

Considering how irrelevant Nasty Plot PZ was during the test compared to Choice Spec PZ or Choice Scarf PZ, it's a pretty big deal that it would now be forced to run it just to stand a chance against Chansey. 

Calling it irrelevant seems pretty ridiculous, just because people had the luxury to run P-Z Scarf/Specs doesn't mean Nasty Plot is a bad set.

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gbwead   
14 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Calling it irrelevant seems pretty ridiculous, just because people had the luxury to run P-Z Scarf/Specs doesn't mean Nasty Plot is a bad set.

Well, in that case, let's add Probopass to the list of hard counters to PZ because, even though it was never played during the test, it's not bad in UU.

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2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Well, in that case, let's add Probopass to the list of hard counters to PZ because, even though it was never played during the test, it's not bad in UU.

I believe if you say you've made Probopass work in UU but clearly others don't feel that it has very much UU utility, as it has no usage whatsoever in the published UU table. So if people started using it to specifically hard counter Porygon-Z, that doesn't sound super healthy.

 

I guess you could refine policies in this regard. Meaning that if there's some change to the environment where the test was held, the test period is considered invalid. Because if stating "you can't argue for Porygon-Z ban because the test was without Chansey" is a valid argument, I don't think we can keep much anything banned because this game is in constant change not only due to mechanic implementations but evolving metagame as well. And I would be completely fine by calling the previous/current tests invalid for this reason but I don't think banning anything for now would be a good idea then.

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gbwead   
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

I believe if you say you've made Probopass work in UU but clearly others don't feel that it has very much UU utility, as it has no usage whatsoever in the published UU table. So if people started using it to specifically hard counter Porygon-Z, that doesn't sound super healthy.

 

I guess you could refine policies in this regard. Meaning that if there's some change to the environment where the test was held, the test period is considered invalid. Because if stating "you can't argue for Porygon-Z ban because the test was without Chansey" is a valid argument, I don't think we can keep much anything banned because this game is in constant change not only due to mechanic implementations but evolving metagame as well. And I would be completely fine by calling the previous/current tests invalid for this reason but I don't think banning anything for now would be a good idea then.

It's about way more than just Chansey. It's about the fact that, when PZ was banned, Gigalith and to some degree Bronzong were the only viable counters to it and some thought Gigalith was only played because of PZ. This is obviously not the case since Gigalith has managed to stay UU despite the addition of Chansey in the tier.

 

It's also about the fact that when PZ got banned, there was iirc no Bisharp, Breloom, Azumarill or Scarf Darmanitan to revenge kill it. There was also no high usage ghosts like Jellicent or Chansey to punish PZ when it locked itself on Tri Attack. Also, let's be realistic; if Chansey wants to hard counter Spec, Scarf or NP PZ, it just has to be played with Calm nature.

 

I personally see many reasons why PZ should be tested in our current meta unlike Haxorus that is beyond broken in the most mindless way possible.

Edited by gbwead

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5 hours ago, Zymogen said:

How does cancer get cancer

if a cancerous tumor grows a second cancerous tumor of a different type on it, i believe that would qualify. 

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RysPicz   

I've been playing UU, spectating quite a lot as well.

 

Haxorus is broken. We feared DD or SD set but it's CB that really shines- at least from my experience. The only pokes that are able to take a hit or two from it are Forretress and Bronzong (zong is 3hkod by Low Kick actually and when Mold Breaker will work it's not even a switch in anymore) and neither is even a check as they can't threat Haxorus with anything aside from Gyro Ball which is 3hko:

4 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (101 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Haxorus: 58-69 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 54-64 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The problem with both Zong and Forret is that they:

1. Do not have reliable recovery

2. Are getting trapped by Magneton

 

Similar stuff goes with Weezing, which needs to be just chipped a tiny bit to get 2shoted after rocks:

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 72-85 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

(Obv EQ does a shitload after Mold breaker will work in 5 years so I'm just discussing the current metagame)

 

Slowbro gets 2shoted by X-Scissor, no need to post calcs for it. Vapo with wish + protect can somewhat deal with it but that's about it (unless Hax is Adamant, then it 2shots both Weez and Vapo after rocks, let's not forget that outrage is an option as well once steel type is gone).

 

And these are only calcs for a banded set. What if you're playing a SD one actually? SD Haxorus makes pretty much stall unviable, one or two-shotting entire tier, while having enough speed to outpace the usual wallbreakers like CB Heracross or Specs Yanmega and enough bulk to take a hit from a wall and then kill it back. It's even really tough to revenge-kill it due to it's high speed and typing which leaves it with only 2 weaknesses.

 

Haxorus should leave UU under offensive uber characteristics. Despite not having big choice of moves, these that it has are enough to make it the most threatening pokemon in the tier.

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Zymogen   
Posted (edited)

Typhlosion:

 

We all know Typh is a spectacularly hard hitter - as it proved last gen - but now, with access to easy sun set up and Focus Blast, it completely blows through the UU tier. As far as I can see, the only reliable checks to it are SpDef Vaporeon and SpDef Jellicent (in a dark-heavy meta?). Gigalith is nice for eating Eruptions and whittling with sand, but even careful Gigalith in sand gets atomised by specs Focus Blast and lacks reliable recovery. Likewise with Houndoom - what was once a very safe switch into Typhlosion is now much less reliable for this reason. Typhlosion may be particularly weak to rocks, but any capable player should be able to control hazards in order for it to not be an issue. Even then, there's not much that switches into a specs Blaze Flamethrower in sun either.

 

Discuss

 

Supporting calcs:

Spoiler

Gigalith:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 56-66 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 67.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 120-142 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Jellicent:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 89-105 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent in Sun: 133-157 (64.5 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 65-77 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent in Sun: 97-115 (47 - 55.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Vaporeon:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 97-115 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon in Sun: 147-173 (62 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 69-82 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon in Sun: 105-123 (44.3 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 88-104 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Rhyperior:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 105-125 (47.5 - 56.5%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior in Sun: 159-187 (71.9 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Umbreon:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 112-133 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Sun: 169-199 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Porygon2:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 93-111 (48.4 - 57.8%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 141-166 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

@gbwead hmu with your best defensive Rapidash set, imma need it 

 

 

Edited by Zymogen

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RysPicz   
Posted (edited)

Another thing aside Typh that I'm really worried about is Bisharp with Defiant. Good thing Darmanitan and Chansey were automatically moved, but jesus christ Bisharp looks just insanely dangerous right now with the amount of Defog Crobats in the tier. I'm pretty sure TC talked about it and decided to give it a chance, but I'm very skeptical about this in the tier.

About Typh, Eruption spam is just stupid in UU. Typh just melts through almost every core in UU, while having enough speed to outpace almost entire non-boosted UU meta (bar Crobat, Weavile and Galvantula- Flygon speed ties, though). It has literally no offensive switch-ins bar Flash Fire poke or Kingdra which can switch into it only once (guaranteed 3hko after rocks). It's powerful enough even without sun. If banworthy- I dunno. I surely wouldn't want to ban it right now after all the implemented items, there might be some lower tier pokes that might be able to stop it with Eviolite now in play (and they will be actually usable in UU).

 

E:

Altaria looks very solid against it, while also it has reliable recovery, can defog and looks pretty decent in the meta itself. Who knows

Edited by RysPicz

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Zymogen   
Posted (edited)

Maybe we should be discussing sun in general instead of just Typhlosion - especially with the addition of heat rock?

 

 

Edited by Zymogen

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Posted (edited)

Should we not wait a few more weeks before we can savely say something needs to get looked into, as all these new items and abiltities could provide a solution to the issues we are facing that just haven't been tested?

Edited by trashplayerstevo
Grammar

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pachima   

That fucking moment when ppl are more concerned about typleb and plebsharp and forgot sniper kingdra xdd.

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pachima   
Posted (edited)
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 57-68 (36.3 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 78-92 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
 
Even ponyta stops typhlosion and as well it stops bisharp (unless night slash variants)
Edited by pachima

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gbwead   
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Zymogen said:

Maybe we should be discussing sun in general instead of just Typhlosion - especially with the addition of heat rock?

Gigalith should stop sun teams relatively well imo.

 

Typhlosion has a lot of answers and even counters, so Typhlosion would imo never fit offensive uber characteristics. However, those answers might just not be viable and Typhlosion might be too centralising for that reason. If people are forced to run defensive Lampent, Mantyke, Dragonair, Charizard, Flygon, Aerodactyl, Vibrava, Altaria, Slowking, Jellicent or Vaporeon in UU and if these mons are all shit, Typhlosion would be banworthy. There is just too much stuff to test imo.

Edited by gbwead

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UNNYxmh.png

 

Hey I'm Kingdra Sniper, and I dont care about all walls :D
Pls ban me from UU.

Also if you want a set idea;

Kingdra

Ability :Sniper

Nature Modest/Timide

Mooveset: Focus Energy / Surf / Draco Meteor / Ice Beam (Or Hidden Power Fire because ferro take only 40% damage fuck it's not enought)
Item : Scope Lense

 

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