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Munya

UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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suigin   
1 minute ago, Bomberfox said:

So far, the only counters proposed were Altaria and Mandibuzz, to which I replied that only 2 counters is not enough, and is too cheat (example of the Snorlax banned in OU, while there In Heracross, Machamp, Breloom the cancer to counter it) and you speak of counter-argument as if you have given thousands of them. Do not take it badly, dear English speakers, but if things are carcinising more and more, it is because you annihilate the opposition under a flop of insults (I will not make the list of nicks, we will say after I am "too virulent" lol, so I spare their anonymity by very great generosity) for fear of being annihilated by your friends. Bravo. For my part, and it seemed to me that it was clear, I said, by finality, that I will have to get used to this low-floor gameplay, breeding 1 pokémon only and for the sole purpose of countering the suns teams. On this, have a nice evening, even if you do not deserve, for some, this courtesy (you saw what a generous man I am lmao)

Two counters are more than enough though.

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gbwead   

and snorlax isn't banned, so i don't know what he is saying

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suigin   
1 minute ago, gbwead said:

and snorlax isn't banned, so i don't know what he is saying

I assume he's speaking about gen3 Lax.

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15 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Neither machamp, Breloom, or hera countered snorlax. I think you need to learn what basic tiering terms mean before you post further. 

I play Machamp and i use it for counter Snorlax many and many times :)

Edited by Bomberfox

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Gunthug   
5 minutes ago, Bomberfox said:

I play Machamp and i use it for counter Snorlax many and many times :)

I once 6-0d an OU team with endure/liechi agility Ariados. Doesn’t change the fact that you don’t know what a counter is 

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razimove   
12 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I once 6-0d an OU team with endure/liechi agility Ariados. Doesn’t change the fact that you don’t know what a counter is 

same, I used to run pikachu in OU and do well with it, does that mean it's/was broken? 

 

21 minutes ago, Bomberfox said:

I play Machamp and i use it for counter Snorlax many and many times :)

the right word is check, and machamp was by no means a counter, snorlax and chansey was to a point so obnoxious, that people were starting to run haunter and trapinch in OU to check them.

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Zymogen   

How much is life orb Icicle Crash into EQ doing to Jelli after rocks?

 

E: I would do the calc myself but I’m away from my PC, but in my eyes it’d be quite a significant calc as the only solid defensive check other than Jelli that I can think of off the top of my head is Bronzong 

 

E2: I guess Quag also works 

 

E3: Oh right Dusclops too

 

E4: idk lmao afk

Edited by Zymogen

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Munya   
8 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

How much is life orb Icicle Crash into EQ doing to Jelli after rocks?

 

E: I would do the calc myself but I’m away from my PC, but in my eyes it’d be quite a significant calc as the only solid defensive check other than Jelli that I can think of off the top of my head is Bronzong 

 

E2: I guess Quag also works 

 

E3: Oh right Dusclops too

 

E4: idk lmao afk

Slowbro

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suigin   
9 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

How much is life orb Icicle Crash into EQ doing to Jelli after rocks?

 

E: I would do the calc myself but I’m away from my PC, but in my eyes it’d be quite a significant calc as the only solid defensive check other than Jelli that I can think of off the top of my head is Bronzong 

 

E2: I guess Quag also works 

 

E3: Oh right Dusclops too

 

E4: idk lmao afk

You're not walling a mamo who predicts right even in ou.

Thing is it also cannot switch much into most of the tier.

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14 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

E2: I guess Quag also works 

 
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 99-117 (49 - 57.9%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 99-117 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Edited by PinkLabel

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Zymogen   
4 minutes ago, suigin said:

You're not walling a mamo who predicts right even in ou.

Thing is it also cannot switch much into most of the tier.

I feel like UU is also less well equipped to RK Mamo though, since OU has reliable SE priority in BP and Vac Wave, whereas UU has less priority and most (granted not all) of the fast mons are either very frail or weak to Ice Shard

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Zymogen   
4 minutes ago, PinkLabel said:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 99-117 (49 - 57.9%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 99-117 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Interesting, I thought Quag was bulkier

 

3 minutes ago, MknsZblex said:

Bronzong / Slowbro / Dusclops and Weezing are the best wall for mamo

And even then, 3 of those lack reliable recovery

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gbwead   
3 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

I feel like UU is also less well equipped to RK Mamo though, since OU has reliable SE priority in BP and Vac Wave, whereas UU has less priority and most (granted not all) of the fast mons are either very frail or weak to Ice Shard

aqua jet azumarill might be the only priority revenge killer

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Zymogen   
2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

aqua jet azumarill might be the only priority revenge killer

That’s all I could think of yeah

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RysPicz   

Mamoswine should not be brought down to UU. Remember guys when we had Haxorus? We were scared of SD and DD sets, while the CB one shined the most and eventually made it leave the tier. The same thing will be with Mamoswine- with CB, this thing has only one switch, in Bongzong, which is easily trapped and disposed of by Swegneton, while it also does not outright OHKO it with Gyro Ball (while mamo can stay and fish for flinches with icicle crash).

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 39-46 (22.4 - 26.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
This looks to me as only more or less, reliable switch.
People were mentioning Dusclops here, okay:
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 58-69 (39.4 - 46.9%) -- 29.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Conditions for Clops to check Mamo are: no hazards at all and full HP (and no spanish hax nabb rng crits lo.).

Slowbro?

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Weezing?
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 76-91 (44.1 - 52.9%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

 

Each time Mamoswine is out, it's a lottery (just like Heracross in current meta and people started to realise it, judging from usage).

 

Even defensive Rapidash and Corsola can't stop it. Mamoswine is an insanely powerful wallbreaker and also do not forget that it has access to a great priority in Ice Shard to prove effective against offensive teams as well.

 

Apparently Mamoswine has bad defensive typing, that prevents it from getting many switches. Let me remind you, that same thing was said about Haxorus and while this is true, Mamoswine will in 95% of battles be a lead or a revenge killer (due to it's access to mentioned priority and super good dual stab). Also we should mention it's really decent physical bulk (110/80) which can allow it to switch against walls that won't do that much damage, such as Gligar or Snorlax.

 

Do not bring Mamoswine down to UU.

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gbwead   

I don't believe comparing Mamo to Haxorus is fair, mainly because the SD and DD set were serious threats on Haxorus and I personally hardly ever saw the CB set. Both Mamoswine and Haxorus have amazing offensive stab coverage for the UU tier, but Haxorus has a much greater defensive typing and speed tier while Mamoswine only has Ice Shard. Don't get me wrong Ice Shard is fucking great, but it's a big let down compared to what Haxorus has to offer imo.

 

At the start of Unova, I remember someone asking for Mamoswine to get banned from OU because on paper it can 2HKO almost anything. It's pretty clear now that Mamoswine is not as big of threat as some thought simply because, despite the lack of true viable counters in OU, Mamoswine is easy to rk and hard to switch in. With all the pokemon available in PokeMMO right now, the best counter to Mamoswine seem to be by far Bronzong followed by Slowbro, Skarmory, Flame Orb Milotic and Weezing. Surprisingly, there are more UU counters than OU counters to Mamoswine, so why should it be banned from UU?

 

We don't have Scizor and Conkeldurr in UU, but we still have Azumarill that can deal with Mamoswine. We don't have Starmie, Arcanine and Darmanitan to RK, but we have Weavile, Houndoom and Typhlosion. We don't have Reuniclus, Swampert, Gyarados and Pelipper that can tank a hit from Mamoswine  and threathen it back, but we have Jellicent, Vaporeon and Mantine. 

 

Some will argue that Bronzong unlike Ferrothorn and Skarmory can't afford to run Shed Shell because it lacks recovery and therefore it can be trapped by Magneton. However, Ferrothorn and Skarmory need to run Shed Shell because they have absolutely nothing (no pachima, idc about your bulldoze Ferrothorn) to threathen Magnezone. My point is that Bronzong is more similar to Scizor, Metagross and Forretress that prevent Magnezone/Magneton from switching in with the threath of EQ and unlike Scizor/Skarmory, Bronzong doesn't get OHKO by any of Magneton's moves, so even if Magneton manages to switch in, Bronzong has more than one shot to get rid of it. If Magneton runs Magnet Rise, it probably means you already lost anyways unless you have a Lanturn I suppose which isn't that common.

 

Furthermore, let's keep in mind that pairing up Magneton and Mamoswine means stacking up Fire and Fighting weaknesses, so it implies starting teambuilding by patching up against these weaknesses. Perhaps, this is an easy task with Mantine/Slowbro/Jellicent in the tier, but unless we actually test it out, we won't know for sure.

There is a weird trend in MMO where whenever a pokemon gets banned, it moves up by usage the month later. That was the case with Absol and Venomoth for instance. What I am trying to say is that there is no active ladder for the UU tier, so it takes a much longer time for the meta to develop and evolve. UU is not in a good place right now imo. Duels are extremely booring because there are all pretty much more of the same stuff we have already seen over and over. The fact that two pokemons moved down this month while none moved up proves how stale the UU meta is. For this reason, even if Mamoswine ends up getting banned after a test, I see no harm in trying to shake things up. Mamoswine presence in the tier might incentivize the use of some NU mons that would otherwise take forever to rise on their own and these potential additions to the tier might have such an impact that they would remain there. Idk, I guess I am just hopful that UU can get better. 

Mamoswine will certainly do better in UU than it has done in OU and that's the point of having it move down. It will most likely become a top threat, but I am not convinced that it will be too much.

TLTR: Shelmet > Defensive Rapidash or Corsola

Edited by gbwead

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RysPicz   
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, gbwead said:

I don't believe comparing Mamo to Haxorus is fair

That's shiny rate

 

Jokes aside, though

20 hours ago, gbwead said:

I don't believe comparing Mamo to Haxorus is fair, mainly because the SD and DD set were serious threats on Haxorus and I personally hardly ever saw the CB set. Both Mamoswine and Haxorus have amazing offensive stab coverage for the UU tier, but Haxorus has a much greater defensive typing and speed tier while Mamoswine only has Ice Shard. Don't get me wrong Ice Shard is fucking great, but it's a big let down compared to what Haxorus has to offer imo.

SD and DD were Haxorus other tricks as well, although from my experience (which back then in July was pretty big) it was the CB one that was the most prominent due to lack of solid steel types in the tier and Haxorus' great coverage with a fighting move- it usually had to switch out instantly after first turn, so dealing tons of damage right of the bat made a lot of sense back then. Mamoswine in here works very similarly- it's god tier dual-stab is resisted only by Bongzong and it has the coverage move in Superpower as well. Mamoswine also has it's tricks- it can run rocks endeavor set for example. I agree Haxorus had better defensive typing but it had mediocre bulk compared to Mamoswine's, I guess it's a fair trade.

 

20 hours ago, gbwead said:

At the start of Unova, I remember someone asking for Mamoswine to get banned from OU because on paper it can 2HKO almost anything. It's pretty clear now that Mamoswine is not as big of threat as some thought simply because, despite the lack of true viable counters in OU, Mamoswine is easy to rk and hard to switch in. With all the pokemon available in PokeMMO right now, the best counter to Mamoswine seem to be by far Bronzong followed by Slowbro, Skarmory, Flame Orb Milotic and Weezing. Surprisingly, there are more UU counters than OU counters to Mamoswine, so why should it be banned from UU?

In UU though, it also can 2hko everything on paper, the problem is absolute lack of decent priority compared to OU and Mamo's actual ability to switch into some UU mons. Conk's Mach, Sciz's BP,  Lucario's Vacuum or Bullet and Dragonite's ESpeed (despite not SE, still does a lot) are all common and threatening to it. Mamo isn't viable in OU because some of the mentioned mons are literally in 30% of OU's fights. Now look at UU- the first mon that has a STAB SE priority move is Azumarill which sits on 6.6% usage. Other mons don't even have that kind of priority lo. This means that Mamo gets, just like Haxorus, to wreak havoc every time it gets into fight and it will be ridiculously difficult to revenge it. The walls you mentioned can all get 2shoted after rocks and they all need to be at full HP to be able to check Mamoswine (ofc aside from bongzong, which has a mere 14.5% usage).

 

This is another problem actually, because I fear that due to it's insane offensive presence, Mamoswine would become overly centralising and force us to play bongzong, skyrocketing it's usage just to counter that one broken mon (although there's a second broken mon in UU and everyone seems to be fine with it).

 

20 hours ago, gbwead said:

We don't have Scizor and Conkeldurr in UU, but we still have Azumarill that can deal with Mamoswine. We don't have Starmie, Arcanine and Darmanitan to RK, but we have Weavile, Houndoom and Typhlosion. We don't have Reuniclus, Swampert, Gyarados and Pelipper that can tank a hit from Mamoswine  and threathen it back, but we have Jellicent, Vaporeon and Mantine.

The mons you mentioned from OU tier usually have high usage. The mons from UU have usually less than 10% usage (I think Typh is used more often but I'm too lazy to check usage stats). From top usage mons that are actually able to RK, UU has Heracross and Medicham. And only these two- the arrival of Mamoswine would completely turn the tier upside down, re-defining the meta, though here I'm again pointing at the centralizing argument though it's more just of a theory.

 

20 hours ago, gbwead said:

Furthermore, let's keep in mind that pairing up Magneton and Mamoswine means stacking up Fire and Fighting weaknesses, so it implies starting teambuilding by patching up against these weaknesses. Perhaps, this is an easy task with Mantine/Slowbro/Jellicent in the tier, but unless we actually test it out, we won't know for sure.


There is a weird trend in MMO where whenever a pokemon gets banned, it moves up by usage the month later. That was the case with Absol and Venomoth for instance. What I am trying to say is that there is no active ladder for the UU tier, so it takes a much longer time for the meta to develop and evolve. UU is not in a good place right now imo. Duels are extremely booring because there are all pretty much more of the same stuff we have already seen over and over. The fact that two pokemons moved down this month while none moved up proves how stale the UU meta is. For this reason, even if Mamoswine ends up getting banned after a test, I see no harm in trying to shake things up. Mamoswine presence in the tier might incentivize the use of some NU mons that would otherwise take forever to rise on their own and these potential additions to the tier might have such an impact that they would remain there. Idk, I guess I am just hopful that UU can get better. 

Mamoswine will certainly do better in UU than it has done in OU and that's the point of having it move down. It will most likely become a top threat, but I am not convinced that it will be too much.

TLTR: Shelmet > Defensive Rapidash or Corsola

Shelmet? Nah, Surskit, need them webz xd

 

 

Like you know from the previous discussions in which I took part, I'm usually all up to bring a mon to test it and see how it will fare. UU however is a tier in which I play most often, I know it really well and I'm just 100% sure that bringing Mamoswine there is gonna end up messing the entire tier a lot. Only mon I *could* see being brought down to UU due to usage is Metagross, probably- although I haven't given it a lot of thought yet and I digress a bit.

 

If you will bring it to UU, we will face the same problem as people had when Kingdra or Haxorus were in the tier. You could come prepared for them, you would know your opponent has them and you still could do nothing about them tearing apart your team. Please don't do it.

 

Spoiler

Sorry GB for portioning your post out, it's just my way of responding to particular parts of the entry xd

 

Edited by RysPicz
I embarris.

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pachima   
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

Only mon I *could* see being brought down to UU due to usage is Metagross, probably- although I haven't given it a lot of thought yet and I digress a bit.

 

1

Hell no. NO

NO NO and NO.

I´d rather see mamoswine than metagross any single day.

Also, no.

And SRIF ofc!

Edited by pachima

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