UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Godhelll]

27 minutes ago, Munya said:

Might be good for the tier but they have to fall below the usage threshold. 

Of course, but they are very low in OU usages, they are not too far from being able to go down. We'll be patient

Edited January 20 by Godhelll

[VicPinto]

18 hours ago, Godhelll said:

Sería bueno para el nivel si Bronzong y Cofa cayeran a UU.

 

Machamp recibe mucho spam, no hay muchas respuestas que sean correctas. Cofa es una basura en OU, estaría bastante bien en el nivel UU.

 

Y sobre Shaymin, personalmente, creo que el Pokémon no puede caer a UU porque todavía tenemos los mismos problemas con él que antes debido a la caída de Seed Flare -2 SpeDef, lo que hace que el Pokémon no sea competitivo en el nivel. Cualquier cosa con la que cambies será destruida, así que sí, el Pokémon es legendario y se vio bien, pero como no se va a hacer nada sobre el problema de Seed Flare, eso significa que el Pokémon no se puede jugar en UU. antes de que lleguen otros cambios importantes al juego

 

 

It makes me laugh how you suggest lowering Cofagrigus and Bronzong to have more variety of walls for your teams but they mention Shaymin and you get scared. If we take a more impartial side and less support the walls, taking into account everything seen lately and that Raikou is being a nuisance even for the walls (Gastrodon takes a good amount of life with hidden power grass), go down Shaymin would be good, do you want a counter for Shaymin? You have Entei, Crobat, BRONZONG (it would be fair if you put them both down at the same time).
 

[Godhelll]

7 hours ago, VicPinto said:

It makes me laugh how you suggest lowering Cofagrigus and Bronzong to have more variety of walls for your teams but they mention Shaymin and you get scared. If we take a more impartial side and less support the walls, taking into account everything seen lately and that Raikou is being a nuisance even for the walls (Gastrodon takes a good amount of life with hidden power grass), go down Shaymin would be good, do you want a counter for Shaymin? You have Entei, Crobat, BRONZONG (it would be fair if you put them both down at the same time).
 

You say that it makes you laugh but you shouldn't because it seems that you don't understand much about the game, it's rather your comment that makes me laugh.

 

“Entei, Crobat, Bronzong”, among the “counters” that you propose, there are none that work lool, and 2 of them take 25% on the rocks. For your information, Adamant Entei is slower than Timid Shaymin, and as a reminder, since you don't seem to already know, Shaymin learns an attack called "Earth Power"

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 143-169 (74.8 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

2 of your "counters" are one shotted after rocks by Shaymin. And regarding Bronzong, he almost doesn't touch Shaymin, he takes a Seed Flare SpeDef Drop and goes out.

 

As you don't know it already, I'll tell you: in a match, Shaymin wins against the 3 that you cited as "counters". Dude, you should analyze the game a little more before you talk like you discovered the fire... lool

 

Edited January 21 by Godhelll

[caioxlive13]

8 hours ago, Godhelll said:

You say that it makes you laugh but you shouldn't because it seems that you don't understand much about the game, it's rather your comment that makes me laugh.

 

“Entei, Crobat, Bronzong”, among the “counters” that you propose, there are none that work lool, and 2 of them take 25% on the rocks. For your information, Adamant Entei is slower than Timid Shaymin, and as a reminder, since you don't seem to already know, Shaymin learns an attack called "Earth Power"

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 143-169 (74.8 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

2 of your "counters" are one shotted after rocks by Shaymin. And regarding Bronzong, he almost doesn't touch Shaymin, he takes a Seed Flare SpeDef Drop and goes out.

 

As you don't know it already, I'll tell you: in a match, Shaymin wins against the 3 that you cited as "counters". Dude, you should analyze the game a little more before you talk like you discovered the fire... lool

 

Bronzong i'm on doubt of what it could do vs Shaymin. It just toxic him but can't do dmg and... Shaymin has Natural Cure, getting rid of status is easy.

[FlacuSkye]

8 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Bronzong i'm on doubt of what it could do vs Shaymin. It just toxic him but can't do dmg and... Shaymin has Natural Cure, getting rid of status is easy.

Bronzong switching into Shaymin gives it an opportunity to set up rocks, as it is its main role. But aside from that, Gyro Ball does important chip, since it manages to 3HKO Timid 252+ Shaymin, in many cases forcing it to Recover, making Bronzong recover some health back through Leftovers. 
Some Bronzongs also used to run a Trick+Lagging Tail/Choice Item, so that's another way it has to diminish Shaymin's offensive capacity.

[Sargeste]

Empoleon gone after March?

 

Cloyster about to eat up everything since it's free to run Natural Gift Electric/Fire for Poliwrath/Forretress (if Cloyster users weren't already running Electric) among others.

 

Give us Registeel. Special Poliwrath really coming to town in the meantime.

Edited March 11 by Sargeste

[FlacuSkye]

Not only Cloyster but like, every single pokemon in the tier??
Good thing Salamence, Mandibuzz and Bronzong are dropping so it's not that bad.

[Sargeste]

13 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said:

Not only Cloyster but like, every single pokemon in the tier??
Good thing Salamence, Mandibuzz and Bronzong are dropping so it's not that bad.

Definitely not just Cloyster, was just my first thought. Anything that was annoyed by Empoleon really.

 

Bronzong dropping at least somewhat makes up for Empoleon's departure, but would be 1 of 2 decent defensive Steel types we have, and neither have reliable recovery.

 

Shame about Salamence. Mandibuzz I'm shocked even had enough usage to rise in the first place.

[TohnR]

Salamence, Bronzong, Mandibuzz all belong in current UU 😉 

To be honest Empoleon leaving is sad for tier's stability but it benefits to defensive mons as much if not more than it benefits to offensive mons

Edited March 11 by TohnR

[Bertolfoso]

When are we banning entei btw

[Godhelll]

2 hours ago, Bertolfoso said:

When are we banning entei btw

you mean Porygon-Z

[Bertolfoso]

Order of operations is Entei, then Drougth/Drizzle, then pz

[Imperial]

1 hour ago, Bertolfoso said:

Order of operations is Entei, then Drougth/Drizzle, then pz

All of these seem fine though, main one I would be concerned about is Salamence when it drops (although we also have Bronzong/Mandibuzz dropping down)

[FlacuSkye]

8 hours ago, Bertolfoso said:

When are we banning entei btw

After using Entei myself basically everywhere, i can say that i was truly impressed by how good it is.
It's got everything; bulk, speed, and an acceptable moveset that goes along its attack stat. Sacred Fire can be spammed so easily and it doesn't even matter if the opposing Pokemon resists it because 50% of the time it's going to be crippled with a burn (not to say how common it is for Entei to win late games with just Extreme Speed).

And that is when things get ugly. Let's check what Pokemon can switch into Entei (it forces a lot of switches so it's important to know) (nonsensical yapping ahead):

 

Spoiler

(The set considered will be a normal Choice Band Adamant, other alternatives like AV who isn't locked into a move or CM may have different checks/counters/switch-ins, although they see little to no usage).

Nidoqueen
- Even 252 HP 252+ Def gets 2HKO'd by SFire lol.

Ninetales
- Setting sun just makes it worse since it boosts SFire, Ninetales can't do much in return neither (also dies to Stone Edge).

Arcanine
- Absorbs SFire but gets absolutely nuked by Stone Edge so it's risky. Strongest move it has to hit Entei is non-stab CC.

Poliwrath
- Okay so here's the thing. A physically defensive Poliwrath totally counters Entei, but it's mostly seen on stall. Offensive Poliwrath takes 40%-47% from SFire. Scarf can't KO with Waterfall, CB is slower so it won't KO if it gets burned.

Tentacruel
- Fully physically defensive Tentacruel takes around 33%, but getting burned just negates the recovery from Leftovers so yeah... Offensive ones get 2HKO'd but are faster and have a 50% to kill with HPump unless carrying LO.

Vaporeon
- "V" is for "very good" answer but also "V"  is for "vastly useless in current metagame".

Snorlax
- This thing checks a lot of stuff and luckily it counters Entei too thanks to Thick Fat. Can get rid of burn with Rest and avoids passivity with Sleep Talk.

Moltres
- Its great bulk lets it take less than half from SFire, although Specs Hurricane only kills 37.5% of the time and having low accuracy doesn't make this much reliable (x4 weakness to rocks is also a big factor).

Feraligatr
- Takes the SFire pretty damn well but then again, if it burns it won't manage to KO.

Politoed
- Well yeah it sets up rain so an answer indeed, but Politoed only mean of recovery is Rest, and it's only used on rain teams.

Donphan
- Barely doesn't get 2HKO'd by SF, and if it gets burned it's game over.

Gligar
- Can take SFire pretty good, but being forced to run Eviolite means a burn will cripple it a lot. EQ does a decent chunk tho and it can pivot with U-Tun so it's pretty nice.

Blaziken
- 2HKO'd by SF and deals 0 damage unless Specs/CB.

Swampert
- Can tank some SFires but getting burned means it won't be able to recover any health, doing a 2HKO with Scald is pretty good tho.

Flygon
- Switching Flygon into Entei is kinda tough because not only you lose half your health, getting burned means losing a lot of offensive potential unless running a full special set. But it can force it to switch out so Flygon gets a chance to roost.

Crawdaunt
- Uhhh Crawdaunt is very frail, getting 2HKO'd by SFire, and the only thing it can do is Aqua Jet which has very little chance of actually killing this thing.

Dusclops
- Same as Gligar, but Pressure burns SFire PP really quick so it's great.

Gastrodon
- Reaaaaally good answer. Always runs Leftovers so a burn isn't annoying and has access to Recover.

Hippowdon
- Takes a lot from SFire but not enough to get 2HKO'd and heals with Slack Off, but getting burned makes it less useful throughout the rest of the match.

Rhyperior
- Again, takes very little but getting burned ruins it.

Rotom-Heat
- It can perfectly pivot around Entei if it's running HP evs and there's no rocks on the field. Stone Edge kills tho...

Gigalith
- Same as Rhyperior.

Jellicent
- Just like Gastrodon, it stops Entei very well, healing off any attack but Crunch.

(Again, this is considering a scenario when X Pokemon switches into Entei, there may be a lot of ways to revenge kill it)

So we can see the biggest problem with this dog lies in Sacred Fire, having a burn chance bigger than Scald lets Entei cripple a lot of its switch-ins for the rest of the match.
I suggest a discussion thread made about Entei to investigate this matter further.

[TohnR]

Entei is clearly too strong for the tier overall however there are still some good checks to his limited movepool.
Kinda the same issue as mons like PZ/Crawdaunt they can be overcentralizing because their answers are limited (especially Entei in Sun actually), the issue with Entei being access to such a strong prio and 100 speed tier which is top tier for UU, combined with his great bulk it's quite hard to even revenge kill it.
I believe he's actually way stronger than Shaymin was, but they have a different kind of role so Shaymin was deemed banworthy because potentially unwallable (with RNG) while Entei is walled but harder to actually outplay by offense teams, since most offensive water/rock mons are scared of burn and fires usually lose if they switch in.

 

About the checks Flacu mentionned : 

I believe with Empoleon being gone Vaporeon will become more prominent.

Poliwrath can actually check it really nicely even offensive sets, you just have to build them properly.

Rhyperior / Gigalith / Druddigon can only tempo Entei for a bit but are badly crippled by the burn because lack of recovery and lack of damage after the burn.

Hippowdon / Gligar can rly counter it but they don't like the burn either.
Flygon & Gastrodon are probably the best answers if played with special moves & defensive investments. Not rly much to say about these. 

 

Also can't assume Entei is going to be adamant, you'd be surprised how good jolly can be as well (so Flygon is not guaranteed to outspeed)

 

So to conclude, the amount of mons offense can easily slot to play around Entei is realistically 2 : Flygon and Poliwrath. Altho still plenty of options are available as you can see (outside of sun).

 

Edited March 14 by TohnR

[caioxlive13]

19 hours ago, Bertolfoso said:

Order of operations is Entei, then Drougth/Drizzle, then pz

That list is wrong. Lemme fix that.

 

Order of operations is Entei, then Crawdaunt, then Drougth/Drizzle, then pz

[Bertolfoso]

45 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

That list is wrong. Lemme fix that.

 

Order of operations is Entei, then Crawdaunt, then Drougth/Drizzle, then pz

im so sorry i will never make that mistake again, please dont be angry at me

[caioxlive13]

10 hours ago, TohnR said:

 

 

So to conclude, the amount of mons offense can easily slot to play around Entei is realistically 2 : Flygon and Poliwrath. Altho still plenty of options are available as you can see (outside of sun).

 

2 answers for UU-standarts seems to be acceptable since Craw was allowed having just 2 things that can switch in on any stab and not dying of a Close Combat.

 

Jokes aside, i don't think that is acceptable a mon cripple everything with just one of their moves. Hydrei did that on OU with draco and ended banned, twice. Also, there is the possibility of Entei paired with Sun which has to be respected, thanks TohnR to bring that out.

 

And commenting about shaymin, what RNG is that people are so worried? Because Seed Flare is 40% Sp. Drop, but is 80% acc afaik. So it will drop Sp. Def effectivelly 32% of the times and that is not a high roll when you remember that there is multiple ~30% rolls running around, like scald that is a 30% burn. If someone explains to me i would be grateful.

[DrakeHope]

Entei movepool even if limited is actually almost perfect for the actual UU metagame sacred fire destroy everything and crunch ( for Jelli ) + stone edge ( for fire type ) make his check so limited actually only gastrodon full def and snorlax thick fat at least full HP can perfectly counter Entei, and dusclops to some extent ( one def drop from crunch is enough to make it a 2HKO on dusclops: 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Crunch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 84-100 (57.1 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ), i consider them perfect counter bcs they don't care about the burn and don't get 2HKO by sfire or the coverage move and have reliable way to heal themselve.

All the other check/"counter" are at least annoyed by burn: Gigalith, hippodown, Gligar, Donphan, physical swampert, flygon physical or mixed and other flacu already listed, also 1 out of 5 (20%) Entei are played with a +Speed nature meaning it can be a speed tie against flygon. But even if they are annoyed by burn they still can annoy Entei with stab for Gigalith Hippo Gligar Donphan Swampert and Flygon and some of them can use a heal move.

For me the biggest issue is that it's so hard to rk entei, bcs of his great bulk priority don't do much even if the mon is weak to sr ( 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 164-196 (86.3 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO the strongest prio against him isnt a OHKO if full life ) scarf or the few faster mon usually lack the power to rk him 

Even if low he can take a EQ Krook scarf if full life: 252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 182-216 (95.7 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO but that still good to rk
Pz scarf adaptability: 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 118-140 (62.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( don't kill even after entei took SR )
Pz scarf Download: +1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 132-156 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( 50% chance to kill if entei took sr ) 

Raikou specs: 252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 158-186 (83.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( 16% usage of the item)
Raikou not specs: 252 SpA Raikou Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 106-126 (55.7 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( expert belt is 31% chance to OHKO if entei took sr )
Heracross scarf ( 26% item usage) : 252 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 128-152 (67.3 - 80%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fera: 252 Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 88-109 (46.3 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

All of them are not a 100% chance to OHKO on a full life entei an not a 100% OHKO after entei take SR, also entei have Espeed and can kill them if they are low hp, for me having such an issue in revenge killing such a devastating mon offensively is not healthy.

[Mkns1070]

So now we test Shaymin right ?

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, Mkns1070 said:

So now we test Shaymin right ?

I think so, the meta changed drastically now since the ban. Now there is Weather Wars, Entei, some drops, that changed UU a lot. Not straight forward saying that Shaymin is not broken but now deserves a test. (Holy crap, those people are blind and didn't noticed Venu in UU yet? )

[FlacuSkye]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

(Holy crap, those people are blind and didn't noticed Venu in UU yet? )

good morrow mine own doct'r hath said i has't 10 seconds hath left and mine own lasteth wisheth is to knoweth what art thee coequal trying to sayeth h're