UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[suigin]

Use Altaria

[Mkns1070]

If Sun team and grass sweepers are so broken, why it's so used ?

 

 

Exeggutor

24

2.84%

 

Victreebel

15

1.77%

 

Shiftry ???

 

Vileplume ???

 

 

 

[Havsha]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Gigalith is a direct answer to sun teams because Chlorophyll sweepers are under sandstorm instead of the sun. No one expects Gigalith to counter Venusaur, so why would anyone expect it to counter Exeggutor or Victreebel? You bring Gigalith for Sun and then you handle grass threats the exact same way you would do if there was no sun, that's it. I'm not saying Sun teams are bad, just that you guys are not showing that Sun is broken. Leafstorm and Giga Drain calcs against Gigalith are completly irrelevant. You are not doing Bomberfox any favor by encouraging him to believe that grass sweepers can handle Gigalith because that's not something anyone is disputing or care about.

Look, I do understand that my leaf storm calc was kinda irrelevant, however I don't think its completely irrelevant, I am fan of mandibuzz, but lets be real crobat and gligar usage outshines it and are often used in its role. But, it was more of a hasty defense of his arguments, the point I think I intended to make was more centralized around typhlosion in the sun. Although suggesting leaf storm as an answer for gigalith isnt exactly a disservice there are plenty of situations where the 50/50 may lead to the opponent going to either bronzong or gigalith (hp fire vs leaf storm) Not every team is gonna run mandibuzz. But anyway, my main purpose was to try get you all to take his concerns more seriously, not to give him advice.

4 minutes ago, razimove said:

I feel like you're giving him to much credit, not in a bad way, but adressing points, that aren't exactly his concerns. Only real sun abuser is typhlosion imo, and even him will struggle vs gigalith centered teams, hazards, etc.

Guy is just going trigger happy about sun teams, while not having knowledge in regards of UU meta imo.

Look, I understand his arguments and points are less informed than players who have had more experience, that being said I dont believe thats reason to ignore his concerns about the tier. He clearly believes that sun is a threatening team in UU, and his concerns must be rooted in something. Instead of attacking new players we should be listening to their concerns and pointing them in the right direction, instead of just calling them trolls or noobs when they fail to understand a point or are unconvinced. 

Tl;dr mmo community are too toxic to new players getting into the comp scene

[RysPicz]

22 minutes ago, Havsha said:

Merely an indication that giigalith alone is not an answer to sun teams. The bigger issue that bomberfox didn't really address are pokemon like typhlosion that abuse sun and force 50/50s. You guys are all so dedicating to shutting down his points that you are all ignoring that his concerns are rooted on an aspect of the tier he feels is extremely threatening. Im not here to say hes right, but I do grow tired of everyone just shutting him down and calling him a noob instead of giving his concerns any real thought. I respect that you for instance has presented him potential answers and solutions, but lets not pretend 80% of the response have even attempted the same level of thought, and aren't merely jumping on the "hes just a troll" or "hes just a noob" bandwagon

Dear god. I expected a lot of people to defend a troll but not you.

 

Okay, the issue with the guy is that he is completely ignoring our arguments, posting invalid calcs, assuming a situation that Gigalith stays on a sun abuser. The first one alone indicates that this is a troll. He's been told multiple times in the thread by multiple people how the situation would actually look like and he continues to stick to his own weird point that was already shut down multiple times.

 

When it comes to sun abusers and your Typhlosion (which isn't the point of discussion- Torkoal is, but I'll answer you anyway because you clearly lack knowledge and grasp in the tier just like the OP), it needs specs to be really threatening and with this, it gets outspeeded by a multitude of pokes in UU which don't even need scarf. Furthermore, Typhlosion is suspectible to any hazard entry and takes even more damage from rocks than regular poke would, it can be paralyzed, poisoned and toxiced which all limit it's eruption's effectiveness. Even more, it is suspectible to priority, can be disabled (again) by Gigalith, Jellicent, Vaporeon are in the tier as well to take it's repeated eruptions and Vapo can even stall out the sun turns with Wish + Protect.

 

Let's face a typical competitive battle scenario. Torkoal is in 90% sun teams a lead, to set up sun and rocks. Common other leads in UU include stuff like Yanmega, Jellicent, Crobat, Magneton, Flygon or some Stealth Rock users.  Now, if there's a gigalith on the opposing team as well, it switches into Torkoal and regardless of what the Torkoal user does, let it be switch out or attack, the sun is gone and no chlorophyll user is as dangerous as it could ever be. Additionally it's taking sand damage.

If there is no gigalith, there are still so many options to deal with Torkoal it's just ridiculous. Flygon is a direct threat to Tork. Yanmega, Crobat, Mag can volt switch/ u-turn from it to gain momentum, Jellicent can Taunt to prevent setting rocks or getting toxiced or tox the torkoal (or the switch) itself.

 

7 minutes ago, Bomberfox said:

I do not understand what you say. You put the sun + Exeggutor (or even without the sun), and after you do Giga Drain against Gigalith:

252 SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Gigalith: 218-257 (117.8 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Who the hell stays on Exeggutor? Gigalith switches into torkoal and disables sun. When sun is gone it has no reason to stay on exeggutor.

 

I've been playing UU ever since Unova started, maybe a bit less lately due to my job and real life, but I still have a good grasp on the meta. If you really see a problem in the Drought ability of Torkoal in the UU tier, then present us with some strong arguments. Calcs of unrealistics situations like the one above aren't going to help your case whatsoever.

Edited November 26, 2018 by RysPicz

[Bomberfox]

Just now, MknsZblex said:

If Sun team and grass sweepers are so broken, why it's so used ?

 

 

Exeggutor

24

2.84%

 

Victreebel

15

1.77%

 

Shiftry ???

 

Vileplume ???

 

 

 

This does not mean that a pokemon is not used much that it is not cheated. Believe me, if I had been aware that the sun was not banned in UU, I would have made a Sun team.

[Bomberfox]

4 minutes ago, suigin said:

Use Altaria

Good idea, but Altaria for 3 pokémons Only ? :x It is classified NU in addition, I find it still abused.

[Bomberfox]

2 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Who the hell stays on Exeggutor? Gigalith switches into torkoal and disables sun. When sun is gone it has no reason to stay on exeggutor.

 

Giga Drain after Gigalith attack.

[Mkns1070]

1 minute ago, Bomberfox said:

This does not mean that a pokemon is not used much that it is not cheated. Believe me, if I had been aware that the sun was not banned in UU, I would have made a Sun team.

Sun team are not bad in UU, I don't say otherwise.. Just it's not so broken that you claim it.. Like all people here want to make you understand

[Bomberfox]

4 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Dear god. I expected a lot of people to defend a troll but not you.

 

Okay, the issue with the guy is that he is completely ignoring our arguments, posting invalid calcs, assuming a situation that Gigalith stays on a sun abuser. The first one alone indicates that this is a troll. He's been told multiple times in the thread by multiple people how the situation would actually look like and he continues to stick to his own weird point that was already shut down multiple times.

 

When it comes to sun abusers and your Typhlosion (which isn't the point of discussion- Torkoal is, but I'll answer you anyway because you clearly lack , it needs specs to be really threatening and with this, it gets outspeeded by a multitude of pokes in UU which don't even need scarf. Furthermore, Typhlosion is suspectible to any hazard entry and takes even more damage from rocks than regular poke would, it can be paralyzed, poisoned and toxiced which all limit it's eruption's effectiveness. Even more, it is suspectible to priority, can be disabled (again) by Gigalith, Jellicent, Vaporeon are in the tier as well to take it's repeated eruptions and Vapo can even stall out the sun turns with Wish + Protect.

 

Let's face a typical competitive battle scenario. Torkoal is in 90% sun teams a lead, to set up sun and rocks. Common other leads in UU include stuff like Yanmega, Jellicent, Crobat, Magneton, Flygon or some Stealth Rock users.  Now, if there's a gigalith on the opposing team as well, it switches into Torkoal and regardless of what the Torkoal user does, let it be switch out or attack, the sun is gone and no chlorophyll user is as dangerous as it could ever be. Additionally it's taking sand damage.

If there is no gigalith, there are still so many options to deal with Torkoal it's just ridiculous. Flygon is a direct threat to Tork. Yanmega, Crobat, Mag can volt switch/ u-turn from it to gain momentum, Jellicent can Taunt to prevent setting rocks or getting toxiced or tox the torkoal (or the switch) itself.

 

Who the hell stays on Exeggutor? Gigalith switches into torkoal and disables sun. When sun is gone it has no reason to stay on exeggutor.

 

I've been playing UU ever since Unova started, maybe a bit less lately due to my job and real life, but I still have a good grasp on the meta. If you really see a problem in the Drought ability of Torkoal in the UU tier, then present us with some strong arguments. Calcs of unrealistics situations like the one above aren't going to help your case whatsoever.

Well, do not force me to insult you, I already make a lot of effort to tolerate your existance :) -
More seriously, another failed attempt to treat his opponent troll to discredit him. Something else ?

Then I repeat to you again and again: Giga Drain.

[Havsha]

1 minute ago, RysPicz said:

Dear god. I expected a lot of people to defend a troll but not you.

 

Okay, the issue with the guy is that he is completely ignoring our arguments, posting invalid calcs, assuming a situation that Gigalith stays on a sun abuser. The first one alone indicates that this is a troll. He's been told multiple times in the thread by multiple people how the situation would actually look like and he continues to stick to his own weird point that was already shut down multiple times.

I genuinely do not believe he is a troll. He's clearly new to the scene and is perhaps struggling with the language (maybe its unfair of me to make those 2 assumptions, but humour me) People are at different levels, his attention versus sun is more of a "oh shit the sun is up, I must get rid of it" rather than answering the immediate threat. His weird points again can be attributed to his relative errr "newness?" and lesser understanding. I understand its frustrating that hes making these points and not comprehending the points being made, but to attack him for it is part of the major problems I see with the mmo community atm.

 

5 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

hen it comes to sun abusers and your Typhlosion (which isn't the point of discussion- Torkoal is, but I'll answer you anyway because you clearly lack , it needs specs to be really threatening and with this, it gets outspeeded by a multitude of pokes in UU which don't even need scarf. Furthermore, Typhlosion is suspectible to any hazard entry and takes even more damage from rocks than regular poke would, it can be paralyzed, poisoned and toxiced which all limit it's eruption's effectiveness. Even more, it is suspectible to priority, can be disabled (again) by Gigalith, Jellicent, Vaporeon are in the tier as well to take it's repeated eruptions and Vapo can even stall out the sun turns with Wish + Protect.

Like I tried to explain to Gb, my point was more directly to inspire meaningful discourse so that his concerns about sun in UU are not completely ignored, and so that he alone is ganged up on for being a "troll" or a "noob"

[gbwead]

6 minutes ago, Bomberfox said:

I do not understand what you say. You put the sun + Exeggutor (or even without the sun), and after you do Giga Drain against Gigalith:

252 SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Gigalith: 218-257 (117.8 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You do not do Giga Drain against Gigalith because Gigalith switches out against Exeggutor. Sun is not a factor here.

 

4 minutes ago, Havsha said:

Look, I do understand that my leaf storm calc was kinda irrelevant, however I don't think its completely irrelevant, I am fan of mandibuzz, but lets be real crobat and gligar usage outshines it and are often used in its role. But, it was more of a hasty defense of his arguments, the point I think I intended to make was more centralized around typhlosion in the sun. Although suggesting leaf storm as an answer for gigalith isnt exactly a disservice there are plenty of situations where the 50/50 may lead to the opponent going to either bronzong or gigalith (hp fire vs leaf storm) Not every team is gonna run mandibuzz. But anyway, my main purpose was to try get you all to take his concerns more seriously, not to give him advice.

What about Sigiliph, Scrafty, Porygon2, Snorlax, Houndoom, Umbreon or nearly half the tier that outspeeds Exeggutor and can ohko it if Exeguttor doesn't use the right coverage move to deal with these fast threats when they switch in?

[Bomberfox]

2 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Ok, now I'm more than sure you are a troll and your entire point was a troll as well.

 

Seriously guys, let's just let it go. This discussion has no point whatsoever.

252 SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Gigalith in Sand: 148-174 (80 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, Bomberfox said:

252 SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Gigalith in Sand: 148-174 (80 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

@Havsha look at what you did!! Now he spams this irrelevant calc!! I blame you.

[RysPicz]

2 minutes ago, Bomberfox said:

252 SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Gigalith in Sand: 148-174 (80 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gigalith Hidden Power Bug vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 180-212 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gigalith in Sand: 143-172 (74.4 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edited November 26, 2018 by RysPicz

[razimove]

1 minute ago, RysPicz said:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gigalith Hidden Power Bug vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 180-212 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

calm down pachima!

[Bomberfox]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

@Havsha look at what you did!! Now he spams this irrelevant calc!! I blame you.

Ah, now my calculation is "irrelevant". You are strong.

[suigin]

7 minutes ago, Bomberfox said:

Good idea, but Altaria for 3 pokémons Only ? :x It is classified NU in addition, I find it still abused.

People run Cofagrigus for like 2 Pokemon only in OU with Altaria you have a good utility mon that can patch up your team's weakness to sun with a single slot.

Also being NU doesn't mean it's downright bad, it's just not used as much, a lot of things situationally rise depending on the metagame.

[Havsha]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

You do not do Giga Drain against Gigalith because Gigalith switches out against Exeggutor. Sun is not a factor here.

 

What about Sigiliph, Scrafty, Porygon2, Snorlax, Houndoom, Umbreon or nearly half the tier that outspeeds Exeggutor and can ohko it if Exeguttor doesn't use the right coverage move to deal with these fast threats when they switch in?

Gosh why cant we just use examples convenient for my calcs. In sun half the tier doesnt outspeed exegg, but I do understand your point, again its not like i'm really pushing for a tork ban, thick fat lax imo is enough of an answer to sun teams, I just was hoping to promote discourse to help the guy out.

Just now, gbwead said:

@Havsha look at what you did!! Now he spams this irrelevant calc!! I blame you.

Afk

[Bomberfox]

1 minute ago, RysPicz said:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gigalith Hidden Power Bug vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 180-212 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gigalith in Sand: 143-172 (74.4 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

???? SpA and Choice Specs ??? I always take my opponents seriously, but I hope it's a joke.

[RysPicz]

Just now, Bomberfox said:

???? SpA and Choice Specs ??? I always take my opponents seriously, but I hope it's a joke.

@gbwead @MknsZblex maybe language is a barrier in here, could you guys in French tell him why his calc of giga drain on gigalith is so stupid and makes no sense?

 

Also, my irrelevant calc was an answer to your irrelevant calc (which we have explained like I don't know, 20 times over last 3 pages)

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, Bomberfox said:

Ah, now my calculation is "irrelevant". You are strong.

Le calc n'a aucun sens, car Gigalith n'a aucune raison de rester face à Exeggutor. Gigalith vient devant Torkoal. Si Torkoal switch out sur Exeggutor, Gigalith switch out aussi. Que ferais-tu si on envoyait un exeggutor sans soleil devant un aquali, un lanturn ou un maraiste? Tu switch out sur un contre et c'est tout, non? En quoi le soleil est un facteur quand Gigalith est joué?

 

[AurumPegasus]

1 minute ago, Bomberfox said:

???? SpA and Choice Specs ??? I always take my opponents seriously, but I hope it's a joke.

Nah, it's not. Ask @pachima

[Bomberfox]

2 minutes ago, suigin said:

People run Cofagrigus for like 2 Pokemon only in OU with Altaria you have a good utility mon that can patch up your team's weakness to sun with a single slot.

Also being NU doesn't mean it's downright bad, it's just not used as much, a lot of things situationally rise depending on the metagame.

I agree, but again, take a slot just to counter 3 unfortunate pokemon because of the sun, I do not toruve it profitable. In the general case, Altaria is bad, and is only good in this specific case.

[Bomberfox]

1 minute ago, RysPicz said:

@gbwead @MknsZblex maybe language is a barrier in here, could you guys in French tell him why his calc of giga drain on gigalith is so stupid and makes no sense?

 

Also, my irrelevant calc was an answer to your irrelevant calc (which we have explained like I don't know, 20 times over last 3 pages)

What is stupid to put Giga Drain to an Exeguttor? Explain to me.

[Havsha]

4 minutes ago, Bomberfox said:

???? SpA and Choice Specs ??? I always take my opponents seriously, but I hope it's a joke.

Their point is that Gigalith isnt an answer to Exeggutor, but to sun. They are not suggesting you use Gigalith to beat Exegg, you can use something like mandibuzz to do that, and then bring gigalith in later to cancel sun after exegg is switched out. The pokemon that are used to beat sun arent just for sun, but have other roles within the team. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Havsha