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UU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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11 minutes ago, tMuse said:

Even if it's not op, it gives yanmega an unfair advantage over mons that would normally counter it. Without speed boost, normally it would have 147 speed (modest) and get a speedboost after one round

 

Imagine this: You expect the yanmega switch and you switch in your counter; Yanmega gets switched in gets a speedboost and oneshots your pokemon.

I know this is all hypothetically but it is still possible and probably upsetting since a counter doesn't need to be tankier if it can oneshot it and being faster.

 

 

Yes this bug is arround since Speed Boost was implemented so i was a bit suprised that it wasn't discussed before.

Yes, I am aware of how speed boost works, both normally & in PokeMMO.

 

No, it being better than it normally is in the games is not automatically grounds for banning it.

 

A lot of things aren't implemented 100% correctly in MMO, and that can include implementing things in a way that makes them better than they should be (see: Rage Powder), but that isn't automatically grounds for banning it. They have to be problematic in order to actually deserve a ban.

 

Yes, this bug makes it so that there are less things that can come in and answer a Speed Boost Yanmega offensively. With that being said, Yanmega isn't running over UU right now, so obviously, having less checks isn't making Yanmega an insane god level threat. If Yanmega isn't problematic even with this bug, it's clear that it still has enough answers to be reasonable, even with less answers available. Until the bug is fixed, if you consider Yanmega to be a problem, you should use some of the alternative answers.

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3 minutes ago, Senile said:

[...]if you consider Yanmega to be a problem, you should use some of the alternative answers.

I don't play uu i just watched the tournament and observed the bug. i don't want it banned i just wanted to draw attention to this and discuss about it.

 

4 minutes ago, Senile said:

[...]it's clear that it still has enough answers to be reasonable[...]

Fair point and i also think since that's the case it's not ban worthy. 

Thanks for the discussion tho :)

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  • 2 months later...

Can we get some community input on Haxorus in UU? It just dropped down below the cutoff and after a lengthy amount of discussion by the council at yesterday's meeting, we decided to go ahead and test it in the tier despite its power on paper. Obviously, the argument for banning is that it can set up two different ways (SD and DD), though with such a favorable speed tier the DD boost isn't always necessary. Meanwhile, with absurd base attack multiplied by every swords dance, there really isn't much to stand in its way.

 

On the flip side of the coin, it doesn't have mold breaker (yet) so bronzong doesn't have too much trouble handling it - even though +2 dragon claws do absurd damage. Also, it's not immune to any hazards or priority and without recovery has a hard time with longevity, keeping its sweeping ability in check somewhat. some other potential answers that were mentioned were max def slowbro, max def umbreon, weezing (until mold breaker kek).

Edited by Gunthug
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Alright so here some relevant calcs:
 
+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 90-106 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (109 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 61-73 (40.1 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 111-132 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 96-114 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 115-136 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Gligar Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 44-52 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 3HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 147-174 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Jellicent Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 84-100 (55.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk burned Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 73-87 (35.2 - 42%) -- 88.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 160-189 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 104-124 (68.4 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 81-96 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 47% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery  (if haze)
 
+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 132-156 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Quagsire Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 68-82 (44.7 - 53.9%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 105-124 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 60-72 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk burned Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 52-62 (30.2 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 52-63 (30.2 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 111-132 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 211-250 (138.8 - 164.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Foul play soontm?)
 
I think Haxorus is actually too good for UU, we don't really have a switch in for it, we gotta bring a core especially for it.
Not having Team Preview could also make Haxorus a scary late game sweeper.
Haxorus can be ran with Taunt, substitute, doubles dance as well.
Edited by Aerun
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2 hours ago, Aerun said:
Alright so here some relevant calcs:
 
+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 90-106 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (109 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 61-73 (40.1 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 111-132 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 96-114 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 115-136 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Gligar Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 44-52 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 3HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 147-174 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Jellicent Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 84-100 (55.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk burned Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 73-87 (35.2 - 42%) -- 88.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 160-189 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 104-124 (68.4 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 81-96 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 47% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery  (if haze)
 
+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 132-156 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Quagsire Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 68-82 (44.7 - 53.9%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 105-124 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 60-72 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk burned Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 52-62 (30.2 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 52-63 (30.2 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
+2 252+ Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 111-132 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 211-250 (138.8 - 164.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Foul play soontm?)
 
I think Haxorus is actually too good for UU, we don't really have a switch in for it, we gotta bring a core especially for it.
Not having Team Preview could also make Haxorus a scary late game sweeper.
Haxorus can be ran with Taunt, substitute, doubles dance as well.

I was also looking for a switch in for haxorus, but for the jolly with life orb and only found these:

 

Crobat bold 148 evs HP, 252 defense and 108 speed for outspeed Haxorus with haze:

252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 148 HP / 252+ Def Crobat: 82-97 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

But Haxorus have earthquake and can predict the roost:

252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Earthquake vs. 148 HP / 252+ Def Crobat: 135-161 (75.4 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

Forretress with counter and sturdy:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 92-109 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Forretress must have full HP

 

Amoonguss with spore and clear smog:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 175-207 (79.1 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Haxorus must sleep more than 2 turns

 

Tried other calcs too:

 

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Glaceon: 164-195 (95.3 - 113.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Glaceon: 133-159 (77.3 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Glaceon: 265-312 (154 - 181.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 170-204 (111.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 146-174 (65.7 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 84-100 (55.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 109-129 (66 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 55-66 (33.3 - 40%) -- 16.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 161-191 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 322-380 (135.8 - 160.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Lapras Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 120-144 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 149-177 (68.6 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 299-354 (137.7 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 134-158 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 140-165 (75.2 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 80-96 (52.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

And some extra calcs:

 

252+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 120-142 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus on a critical hit: 109-130 (71.7 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 138-164 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

Nothing is good enough to stop it.

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My best counters so far are:

 

-Trick Specs Slowbro with Ice Beam: keep the specs and ice beam will OHKO haxorus but that's pretty bad without Team Preview since we don't know if your opponent got a Haxorus

-Bronzong + Scarf Froslass: Bronzong makes Haxorus using SD and Lowkick, froslass switches in that and OHKOs with ice beam + can also use switcheroo to fuck up incoming walls once Haxorus is dead.

 

I can't really find any other safe switches. All you gotta do is predict the moveset I guess and go to a faster offensive poke if SD or a wall if DD and if both then get fucked hue

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It's so broken on paper I can barely describe. Don't forget this thing now can run a coverage move in X-Scissor for things like Slowbro (OHKO after rocks) and if something wants to wisp/ haze it, it has taunt. Bulk isn't very appealing but the sheer raw power of this thing is just terrifying.

 

As usual, I will give it a test and speak from experience later on, but even for now, without any testing around, this looks like a horrible decision to bring it down

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I am not saying haxorus is not broken, but I find it really funny how people try to find switch ins, when their argument in the past for other mons was along the lines of: We are now in a meta where we shouldn´t try to bring counters, but rather checks cause countering sometimes is impossible and blah blah blah. Also, haxorus in UU is fair

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I agree on paper this probably won't last as Haxorus can be extremly powerful with a lum for free set up, but I think everyone saying "it has no switch ins" is looking at it all wrong. In OU what switch ins did it have? Skarm and Ferro? I wouldn't say you need either of those two to handle Haxorus though. For such an offensive Pokemon you need to not look at how to put a wall in front of it but rather how to take it out as quickly as possible, which for something like Haxorus isn't an impossible task as it isn't the bulkiest Pokemon by any means.

Quick paced back and forth matches will be the norm unless you want to run full stall (Which I might add is Haxorus' job to try and break, so it makes sense to not have many/any switch ins)

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Haxorus has no switch in, but it wins against other sweepers with 1 dragon dance:

 

252 Atk Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 126-150 (82.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 351-413 (225 - 264.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 108-128 (71 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 207-243 (142.7 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 SpA Galvantula Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 76-90 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 220-259 (151.7 - 178.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus on a critical hit: 109-130 (71.7 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Absol: 216-255 (154.2 - 182.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 106-126 (69.7 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 265-312 (203.8 - 240%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 84-100 (55.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 244-289 (174.2 - 206.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 120-142 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 101-121 (66.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 91-109 (59.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Honchkrow: 239-282 (136.5 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Anyway, I didn't have to do these calcs, it's obvious that Haxorus doesn't make sense in UU.

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On 2/28/2018 at 8:30 PM, Toast said:

typlho gets solarbeam tho so no point in using hp grass tbh, so it should be running ice

because drizzle, sandstream, and cloud nine dont exist?



hi toast o/

 

and haxorus seems like the old rhydon in UU. it can set up and break everything but isnt crazy durable. but it seems like it can reliably set up and kill something pretty much always unless you get outplayed. and if the wall breaker breaks the wall and dies then it did its job. 

sounds like it should stay BL

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3 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

ut it seems like it can reliably set up and kill something pretty much always unless you get outplayed. and if the wall breaker breaks the wall and dies then it did its job. 

Except he has more atk, better typing arguably, more speed, coverage for every possible switch in, and also has access to DD. Nice. 

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39 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

sounds like it should stay BL

This usage method sucks, why drop it for 2 or 3 weeks if an updated is near™ and with acess to mold breaker it ll be even worst to fight. (But also foul play users beat it)

 

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14 hours ago, Kizhaz said:

I agree on paper this probably won't last as Haxorus can be extremly powerful with a lum for free set up, but I think everyone saying "it has no switch ins" is looking at it all wrong. In OU what switch ins did it have? Skarm and Ferro? I wouldn't say you need either of those two to handle Haxorus though. For such an offensive Pokemon you need to not look at how to put a wall in front of it but rather how to take it out as quickly as possible, which for something like Haxorus isn't an impossible task as it isn't the bulkiest Pokemon by any means.

Quick paced back and forth matches will be the norm unless you want to run full stall (Which I might add is Haxorus' job to try and break, so it makes sense to not have many/any switch ins)

Can't outspeed it or wall it... Then tank it and hit it, then use a priority move until it dies, but i don't think that's an option in UU.

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42 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

When do you ever see these being used in UU

i dont 

28 minutes ago, Risadex said:

This usage method sucks, why drop it for 2 or 3 weeks if an updated is near™ and with acess to mold breaker it ll be even worst to fight. (But also foul play users beat it)

 

i believe the council probably feels that hax is BL but arent 100% sure it's bl with probably 1 or two exceptions. everyone needs to come out and say "ban it" or y'll are getting it in UU for a few weeks until it gets banned.

but thats all a guess, TC how am i doing? 

Edited by fredrichnietze
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2 hours ago, redspawn said:

Except he has more atk, better typing arguably, more speed, coverage for every possible switch in, and also has access to DD. Nice. 

if you really think about it, the attack difference isnt that high, moreso when rhydon has better stab moves. Better typing? Meh, its arguable as you said. 

The gap in speed is probably the only thing that set them apart. Even though, UU is fast enough to deal with swords dance variants while ddance can´t really deal with bronzong/ferrothorn.

As an offensive player, I find haxorus isn´t that easy to set up against offense, so every calc I have seen in this thread is kinda pushing it too far.

Is it broken? Can´t tell, that´s why testing it for a while doesn´t hurt.

 

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8 hours ago, Risadex said:

This usage method sucks, why drop it for 2 or 3 weeks if an updated is near™ and with acess to mold breaker it ll be even worst to fight. (But also foul play users beat it)

 

because if it was subjective and the tier council just picked what went where and what moved when you would all turn into a countless horde of xatus accusing us of being biased 

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18 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

because if it was subjective and the tier council just picked what went where and what moved when you would all turn into a countless horde of xatus accusing us of being biased 

their is no possible reality where no one calls you biased. you're better off with xatu complaining and the TC not giving a fuck.

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Why is Porygon Z still banned from UU ? It was banned because it was too powerful in UU back then. But now the tier has changed and we got one more special wall to handle its stab and coverage (Chansey) + every other spe. wall that were already in the tier (Gigalith, sassy Bronzong). Not even mentioning the possible RKs or mons that can deal a lot of damage which are in UU now but weren't at the time (i.e: Bisharp). Its normal typing also doesn't give it any advantage for dealing with status or hazards, so revenge killing Porygon Z is not as difficult as it may seem.

 

I mean, If something as broken as Haxorus gets stupidly tested in UU, I don't understand why Porygon Z is still banned.

Edited by Zenor
For an unknown reason, I typed "calm" bronzong but I meant to type sassy
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