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Munya

UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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Munya   

The UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

 

This thread is for the community to make suggestions to the tier council for [Discussion] threads to be opened. All posts will be heavily moderated by myself and there are strict guidelines that all posters must follow when posting in this thread. 

 

Rules:

  • All Off Topic and low content posts will be removed, anyone found to continually be violating this rule will receive a posting restriction. 
  • All requests must come with clear and concise argumentation to justify why a discussion thread will be opened by a tier council member. Posts like "X Pokemon needs to have a thread" or "X Pokemon needs to have a thread because it is really strong" will not be counted as valid and will be removed.
  • Joke posts for Pokemon suggestions will be removed and considered spam.

 

Things to consider:

  • You may want to provide damage calculations to strengthen your argument, this can be done here. Please remember to select the SM tab. 
  • It would be beneficial to provide a clear reason why you feel this Pokemon needs to be discussed. For example, do you believe it falls under the Uber characteristic? The defensive characteristic? Ect....
  • Think carefully before you suggest a Pokemon, it is not a competition to be the one who suggests the most Pokemon. Senile's guide to tiering discussions is a good place to start for those unfamiliar with tier discussions: https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/

All Competition Alley rules still apply!

Many thanks to previous tier leaders for the copy paste rules lists.

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3 minutes ago, Evlgoon said:

so the statistics say milotic is used over 14% of the time in ou why is it still available for use in uu? 

Because we haven't changed the tiers to be according to usage yet. It would be kinda silly to do so yet since usage will change a lot as things get added. So last months usage could theoretically mean absolutely nothing for next weeks meta if an update were to happen that added some useful items/abilities. 

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RysPicz   
6 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

as things get added

ETA 2035?

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Evlgoon   
1 hour ago, Rigamorty said:

Because we haven't changed the tiers to be according to usage yet. It would be kinda silly to do so yet since usage will change a lot as things get added. So last months usage could theoretically mean absolutely nothing for next weeks meta if an update were to happen that added some useful items/abilities. 

Well i understand the tcs logic i think its pretty safe to say that milotics usage rate will remain ou for sometime, regardless of whats implemented in any updates. I guess you cant just pick which mons move up and down for now though while so many obvious ou mons remain below the usage cutoff. How many more months of usage will it be until things are moved around? 

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Parke   
8 minutes ago, suigin said:

Thoughts on Porygon-Z everyone who plays UU?

It's way too strong. Nothing can switch into it without taking insane damage. Sure Bronzong can take a hit but it cant deal enough damage and PZ can just Nasty Plot and blow it away.

 

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Roserade: 88-104 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mantine: 91-109 (53.2 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 73-86 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


I've included both calcs in the above case because Bold is the standard set for Mantine but just to show how much it even does to Calm max invested.

 

So yeah, it's absolutely worth at least talking about I feel until we at least get eviolite/HAs and even then idk how much of a difference it'll make because it still hits like a truck regardless.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, suigin said:

Thoughts on Porygon-Z everyone who plays UU?

It is pretty damn hard to counter, and depending on your opponents team and your set, it can either sweep or get a kill every time it switches in. Everything except for maybe bronzong gets 1hkod/2hkod by specs normal stab and Pzeds other coverage. It isn't that hard to check due it's average speed, but that's not the problem. If porygonZ is getting 2-3 kills a match simply because it had a free switch in,it doesn't matter if you can effectively revenge it. Not to mention nasty plot destroys fat teams with a little bit support. Will add calcs later but on mobile.

 

Tldr  ban

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Munya   

More or less planning on picking up tiering next update regardless of what is missing, so yeah.

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RysPicz   

Hey guys, I spectate and play a shitload of UU lately and I think there's a poke which desperately needs to be looked at, like, right away. And that's PoryZ.

Calcs are above, can we please quickban it? The tier is horrible with this thing in it.

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RysPicz   

@suigin You have asked us about our opinions regarding PoryZ and received our input. What else is required to take action? I cannot express how broken this thing is in UU and nothing will change it, even eviolite. The tier is broken and really unpleasant with this thing around, you got calcs to back it up. It tears apart both offense and defense.

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Zymogen   
On 1/28/2018 at 6:04 PM, suigin said:

Thoughts on Porygon-Z everyone who plays UU?

Awful. You can't not build your team around it - UU does not possess enough resources to reliably counter P-Z and so you have to outsource from other tiers which means effective teambuilding becomes difficult: 

 

  • Careful Gigalith seems to be the best counter to P-Z, however it is dead weight in UU outside of fulfilling this role and lacks significant recovery:
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 46-55 (23.9 - 28.6%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 55-65 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO

 

  • SpDef Rhyperior and Forretress are slapped by specs Tri-Atk:
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 87-103 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 75-89 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • Even more so by Ice Beam/Tbolt:
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 156-184 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 90-106 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

  • Bronzong is a reliable check to Tri-Atk and is more useful in UU than Gigalith, but again, it lacks recovery: 
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 51-60 (29.3 - 34.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 60-71 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- 64.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • 0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (104 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 72-85 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO

 

Granted, specs P-Z can be played around with perfect predictions, but the point remains that unless you carry at least a ghost or a sassy Bronzong, then Specs P-Z gets a kill with Tri-Atk with basically every switch in. And even then, the viable ghosts available to UU (Dusclops, Cofag) are easily trapped and dealt with by the many pursuiters in the tier - namely Houndoom.

 

Nasty Plot P-Z is even scarier since not many of these checks actually pose much offensive pressure, especially on a leftovers variant.

 

Tl;dr send help

Edited by Zymogen

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pachima   

I have mixed feelings about p-z. Granted it possesses amazing wallbreaking abilities, but 90 base speed seems too low for it to be considered broken. TBH, its our community stally gamestyle that makes porygon-z as destructive as it currently is. But as I said, I have mixed feelings about it, since everytime I am building, I see few problems with porygon-z besides the scarf set (makes sense since im offensive), but most of the time I am spectating, it is the nasty plot or whatever set that turns it dangerous. I would understand if it was banned cause its wallbreaking potential is indeed enormous, but once again, speed tier isnt that awesome. Just food for thoughts.

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DoubleJ   

Regardless of the TC waiting on the next update to make any changes, I would strongly urge them to make some changes now. Namely, banning Porygon-Z to BL for being an offensive Uber. From the Tiering Etiquette Guide:

 

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

 

Porygon-Z has several ways that it can sweep a "significant portion" of teams. Namely, Choice Scarf provides pZ with more speed than any other Pokemon in the UU tier, even with an opposing Scarf of their own. It's access to an incredible STAB-boosting ability in Adaptability means that its already outrageous 135 base Special Attack is increased even further for moves such as Tri-Attack (80 BP) and Hyper Beam (150 BP). It even has the coverage moves to annihilate any counter as seen in the calcs that have been posted previously. 

 

The only viable check that has been presented seems to be SpDef Gigalith which has a difficult time finding synergy with most teams considering its weaknesses to other more common threats and rather predictable moveset. 

 

Whether it's Choice Scarf/Specs w/ Trick, Life Orb, Nasty Plot, or Agility, Porygon-Z can simply threaten any team construct and should be banned. It serves no place in UU where our walls can't stop it. 

 

 

tl;dr Ban Porygon-Z to BL before the next update

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RysPicz   
59 minutes ago, AlitoFernando said:

Just ban Porygon Z already 

They did? >:V We have only one official UU incoming in like 3 weeks, CCs don't matter.

The most important place where it should be banned, PSL, did the right decision so the "official" ban means pretty much shit right now

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4 hours ago, RysPicz said:

They did? >:V We have only one official UU incoming in like 3 weeks, CCs don't matter.

The most important place where it should be banned, PSL, did the right decision so the "official" ban means pretty much shit right now

Inb4 still not banned before the official,also CCs do matter actually,people want to try out their teams and unfortunately there's no plenty of UU players.On a personal side,i'd be more satisified to see PZ officialy out of the tier,I mean what does it takes ? some lines of codes ? we already had insta bans before and they were really quick (take zangoose for examples)

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DoubleJ   

Now that we've got usage statistics that seem to truly represent our tiers, I'd like to push for an update on the tier lists in-game. Based on our 4.36% usage cut-off the following changes should be made:

  • Moving Down from OU to UU: Chansey, Cloyster, Meinshao
  • Moving Up from UU to OU: Alakazam, Arcanine, Flygon, Heracross, Jolteon, Mantine, Milotic, Snorlax, Tentacruel, 

It should also be noted that all of our prior "borderline" Pokemon have less than 4.36% usage and could move-down, although previously they were all banned for being "too good" for UU. 

 

Meinshao's usage may have also been "skewed" because of the Regenerator ban and thus should probably be kept in OU. 

 

I may have missed something, but just at first glance these are the changes that I can see. 

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Suneet   
Just now, DoubleJ said:

Now that we've got usage statistics that seem to truly represent our tiers, I'd like to push for an update on the tier lists in-game. Based on our 4.36% usage cut-off the following changes should be made:

  • Moving Down from OU to UU: Chansey, Cloyster, Meinshao
  • Moving Up from UU to OU: Alakazam, Arcanine, Flygon, Heracross, Jolteon, Mantine, Milotic, Snorlax, Tentacruel, 

It should also be noted that all of our prior "borderline" Pokemon have less than 4.36% usage and could move-down, although previously they were all banned for being "too good" for UU. 

 

Meinshao's usage may have also been "skewed" because of the Regenerator ban and thus should probably be kept in OU. 

 

I may have missed something, but just at first glance these are the changes that I can see. 

Chansey in UU hmm, cba to calc, but what breaks it in UU apart from Scrafty?

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DoubleJ   
1 minute ago, Suneet said:

Chansey in UU hmm, cba to calc, but what breaks it in UU apart from Scrafty?

Without Eviolite, consider Chansey the same as when it was in OU before. We still have a pretty deep roster of physical offense which includes Medicham, Gallade, Blaziken Krookodile, Rhyperior, Weavile, and maybe even Meinshao, etc. Regarding special offense, Magneton is still an option that doesn't fear any status and can now Volt Switch into a trapper, if you want to play scum tactics. The same can be said about Galvantula.  

 

UU also offers a plethora of set up bulky offense like Scrafty, which can punish Chansey teams. Stall based teams can easily use Knock Off and Taunt to torture the old girl. 

 

We have a lot of options to cover Chansey in UU. Fortunately it doesn't have Eviolite to bulk up even more. 

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