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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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After my banded azu locked into waterfall under the rain got rk'd by a blissey I'll just leave this calc here and be on my way

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey in Rain: 333-393 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

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35 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

After my banded azu locked into waterfall under the rain got rk'd by a blissey I'll just leave this calc here and be on my way

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey in Rain: 333-393 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

cool story bro, needs more dragons

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whoah whoah whoah

 

you're telling me a max HP max Def blissey can tank a neutral physical hit from full health 50% of the time?

 

mindblown.gif

 

e: on second look, if you had gone with just a slightly bigger font size, I might have taken you seriously.

Edited by Gunthug

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1 minute ago, Zymogen said:

I'm only asking this because I'm tilted, but:

 

Opinions on Togekiss?

2 hard 2 kill if u dont have a Magnezone imo

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On 7/23/2018 at 3:09 PM, Gunthug said:

whoah whoah whoah

 

you're telling me a max HP max Def blissey can tank a neutral physical hit from full health 50% of the time?

 

mindblown.gif

 

e: on second look, if you had gone with just a slightly bigger font size, I might have taken you seriously.

It was mostly a joke but.. It's just not like it tanked scarf flygon dragon claw lmao, that's what a "neutral physical" hit is (252 attack, no boosts).

 

 Im talking of a 180 BP move fired off 336 physical attack which is quite different for me but I dont know if you get along well with maths. (Adamant Huge Power Rain boosted Banded waterfall, now that's a lot of multipliers my friend)

Edited by FNTCZ

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Tyranitar is the best check to Twave + NP Togekiss outside of Magnezone, however if the Tyranitar is caught on a Twave then it only has a 25% chance of actually hitting; that is the same probability as being fully paralysed. When factoring in in Stone Edge's accuracy,  the probability is even lower. For walls, it is incredibly difficult to achieve anything significant against a Togekiss due to its decent speed tier and therefore fast Twaves, Air Slashes and Roosts. For these reasons there is not a single wall, outside of perhaps Sassy Tyranitar, that is effective in dealing with Togekiss (and that is provided it is not carrying Aura Sphere). Additionally, with Togekiss' natural bulk and access to a reliable recovery move, it makes for an incredibly difficult Pokemon to keep at a low enough HP for revenge killing without a strong pursuit trapper or Tyranitar/Magnezone to force switches on Rocks.

 

For Bold Togekiss, effective revenge killers include: 

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 236-282 (122.9 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 192-228 (100 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 216-254 (112.5 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Less effective revenge killers:

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 172-203 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 156-187 (81.2 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (lol)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 162-192 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery (also lol)

 

For Calm Togekiss, effective revenge killers include:

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 234-276 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 300-354 (156.2 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 218-257 (113.5 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 176-210 (91.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Less effective revenge killers:

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 144-170 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 150-178 (78.1 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Other interesting calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 108-128 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 110-132 (57.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 97-115 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 108-128 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I have almost definitely missed a few calcs so let me know. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zymogen

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6 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Tyranitar is the best check to Twave + NP Togekiss outside of Magnezone, however if the Tyranitar is caught on a Twave then it only has a 25% chance of actually hitting; that is the same probability as being fully paralysed. When factoring in in Stone Edge's accuracy,  the probability is even lower. For walls, it is incredibly difficult to achieve anything significant against a Togekiss due to its decent speed tier and therefore fast Twaves, and Air Slashes and Roosts. For these reasons there is not a single wall, outside of perhaps Sassy Tyranitar, that is effective in dealing with Togekiss (and that is provided it is not carrying Aura Sphere). Additionally, with Togekiss' natural bulk and access to a reliable recovery move, it makes for an incredibly difficult Pokemon to keep at a low enough HP for revenge killing without a strong pursuit trapper or Tyranitar/Magnezone to force switches on Rocks.

 

For Bold Togekiss, effective revenge killers include: 

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 236-282 (122.9 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 192-228 (100 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 216-254 (112.5 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Less effective revenge killers:

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 172-203 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 156-187 (81.2 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (lol)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 162-192 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery (also lol)

 

For Calm Togekiss, effective revenge killers include:

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 234-276 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 300-354 (156.2 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 218-257 (113.5 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 176-210 (91.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Less effective revenge killers:

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 144-170 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 150-178 (78.1 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Other interesting calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 108-128 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 110-132 (57.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 97-115 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 108-128 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I have almost definitely missed a few calcs so let me know. 

 

Imo twave toge is not its best set (Heal bell beats blissey and other toxic users, whereas aura sphere beats ttar and has a better matchup agains other steel types like excadrill)

 

Togekiss' role is stallbreaker and it excels at it even tho it can't beath both blissey and ttar at the same time. 

 

Its main selling point is the flinch rate ofcourse, but to actually take adventage of it toge needs to invest on speed (I personally use Timid max speed) which obviously gives up a great deal of bulk or carry twave which limits its movepool even further and increases its deppence on team support (as if it's the only mon on the team with twave it'll have a hard time spreading paralysis AND then sweeping)

 

Togekiss is a great pokemon but it cant to everything it wishes it could. If you go for the bulky pokemon yeh you are wall with recovery (still weak to rocks) but you wont be sweeping or flinched offensive threads because they will simply outspeed you, if it wants to sweep then it has to choose which of his two main counters it wants to beat and automatically lose to the other one (blissey - ttar).

 

Finally, Air slash can miss and doesn't really have a ton of pp (24 is most of the times enough but when you gotta flinch say a whirlwind skarmory you'd need a lot more of either pp or luck)

 

Btw skarm + bliss a pretty common core also completely deal with it.. if it's heal bell skarm just ww's it away and wastes its pp, if it's aura sphere blissey can toxic it and spam softboiled / wishprotect

 

 

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On 7/11/2018 at 8:42 AM, pachima said:

reuniclus, bold garde, bulky psychic metagross are all counters.

The reason I stated bold garde is that it can have speed to outspeed scizor and hp fire it.

Also, payback doesn´t double its power on switch in.

And this is assuming you dont know conk´s set. Once you know (tpunch/ice punch bla blah blah) more stuff can come in easily.

So basically, while conk can be somewhat of an annoyance and a game changer in some circunstances, I dont see it running rampage without a boosted knock off.

What other use does Bold Garde have other than dealing with Conk? What set do you run on it? 

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14 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

What other use does Bold Garde have other than dealing with Conk? What set do you run on it? 

Trace is still one of the best abilities in the game. You can trap zones, check gyarados, switch in on mence and w-o-w, trace swift swim/sand rush, serene grace from toge for them psychic spdef drops, trace mantines water absorb and wall it forever, deal chip damage when switching into ferro via iron barbs, heal your status by swithing into blissey/starmie and thats just off the top of my head. 

 

You can also support your team by wish passing and spreading status with wow, toxic or twave

 

Moveset wise i'd run wish protect wow/twave psychic

Edited by FNTCZ
moveset

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16 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

I'm only asking this because I'm tilted, but:

 

Opinions on Togekiss?

Luckily I haven't been swept by one in MMO, but I've had plenty of experiences of being swept by one in DPP. I think it's broken because of its superior bulk and being able to set up vs almost anything. The combination of NP + SG + Heal Bell makes it all the more broken. I don't think Togekiss needs twave because it doesn't need to paralyze mons that are faster than it since it has enough bulk to live some of their hits. Beating togekiss on an offense team generally requires you to have two pokemon that are capable of outspeeding and 2hko-ing it, and I don't know how viable a pure offense team currently is. Wall teams struggle with it the most because it just can't break it. Banded TTar with Stone Edge is not the best answer because 1) Stone Edge has a high miss rate 2) Togekiss can always flinch. If non banded, then Togekiss may just survive one Stone Edge and then possibly roost stall the other Stone Edges easily. I'd say Scarf Magnezone is currently the best answer to it because of how it can easily switch in + force it out.

 

My opinion - ban it. 

Edited by NikhilR

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Just now, suigin said:

skillful mon

If Suigin calls it skillful then it must be bad.

 

Decision made - ban it. 

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9 minutes ago, suigin said:

skillful mon

bout as skillful as playing stall amirite?

 

Jokes aside, I think it's a great mon, but not banworthy. It punishes people who just randomly put 6 walls together and call it a team. I see nothing wrong with that.

Edited by FNTCZ

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11 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

bout as skillful as playing stall amirite?

 

Jokes aside, I think it's a great mon, but not banworthy. It punishes people who just randomly put 6 walls together and call it a team. I see nothing wrong with that.

It punishes just about everything

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15 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

 

Same can be said about gengar.

 

Not with one set.

Gengar is much more susceptible to priority and pursuit trapping, and its longevity is nowhere near the level of Togekiss'. Gengar's pitfall is its paper defences and lack of recovery. 

 

Choiced Gengar can be played around with a few predictions, life orb Gengar can be stalled, sub PS Gengar has 4mss and doesn't cover everything. The difference here is that Togekiss, purely through probability as opposed to predictions/coverage, can beat the large majority of the meta. There is no arguing that clicking two buttons, and reducing your opponent's chance of landing a hit to =<25%, is uncompetitive. 

 

1 hour ago, FNTCZ said:

If you go for the bulky pokemon yeh you are wall with recovery (still weak to rocks) but you wont be sweeping or flinched offensive threads because they will simply outspeed you

As an example, one of the hardest-hitting Pokemon in OU:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 108-128 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Dragonite and Togekiss are both on the field. Togekiss is at 75% from rocks damage - Dragonite uses CB Tpunch, Togekiss takes a shit load but still lives and clicks Twave. Dragonite is now slower than Togekiss and only has a 25% chance of landing a second Tpunch.

 

See where I'm going with this?

Edited by Zymogen

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7 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

 Gengar's pitfall is its paper defences and lack of recovery. 

And togekiss pitfall is its lackluster speed.

 

They are different mons that can beat any pokemon with a given set but they can't do it all at once and have clear weaknesses.

 

7 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Dragonite and Togekiss are both on the field. Togekiss is at 75% from rocks damage - Dragonite uses CB Tpunch, Togekiss takes a shit load but still lives and clicks Twave.

Dragonite is now slower than Togekiss and only has a 25% chance of landing a second Tpunch.

 

See where I'm going with this?

Ok, but by running twave you can only run 2 out of the following moves: Nasty plot, roost, aura sphere, heal bell.

If you dont have aura sphere forget about touching skarmory, tyranitar, excadrill.

 

If you dont have heal bell blissey counters you.

 

If you dont have nasty you wont be sweeping.

 

If you dont have roost... lol

 

See where I'm going with this?

Edited by FNTCZ

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3 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

 lackluster speed.

 

I have literally just explained why that isn't a valid argument. Togekiss' ability to tank a hit from the majority of the Pokemon in OU (even after rocks) and land a subsequent Twave nullifies any disadvantage as a result of its lower speed.

Edited by Zymogen

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25 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

If you dont have aura sphere forget about touching skarmory, tyranitar, excadrill.

Skarmory: Untrue if it's not running Whirlwind.

Tyranitar: Already accepted that Tyranitar is a decent check, but still doesn't appreciate a Twave (just going to mention that good old =<25% hit chance again).

Excadrill: You are right, I concede this.

 

25 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

If you dont have heal bell blissey counters you.

Only if the Blissey is running Toxic. Heal Bell Blissey would struggle. 

 

25 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

If you dont have nasty you wont be sweeping.

If Tyranitar or Blissey aren't in the picture, then I'd be inclined to disagree.

 

25 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

If you dont have roost... lol

Tru

Edited by Zymogen

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1 hour ago, Zymogen said:

As an example, one of the hardest-hitting Pokemon in OU:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 108-128 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Dragonite and Togekiss are both on the field. Togekiss is at 75% from rocks damage - Dragonite uses CB Tpunch, Togekiss takes a shit load but still lives and clicks Twave. Dragonite is now slower than Togekiss and only has a 25% chance of landing a second Tpunch.

 

See where I'm going with this?

Dragonite has Inner Focus and can't be flinched.

 

To those seriously thinking Togekiss is Uber, wot...

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1 minute ago, Kizhaz said:

Dragonite has Inner Focus and can't be flinched.

 

To those seriously thinking Togekiss is Uber, wot...

lmao u right

 

Oversight. Principle is the same.

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To those claiming togekiss is only good to rekt wallteams, I wish them to face scarf air slash togekiss with an offensive team and get 6-0d via flinching.

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