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Munya

OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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Nobody is mentioning the fact that it's not even at full power yet, once Flame Orb becomes a thing it will be infinitely harder to switch into it.

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2 minutes ago, suigin said:

Nobody is mentioning the fact that it's not even at full power yet, once Flame Orb becomes a thing it will be infinitely harder to switch into it.

I do believe however that stuff like dusclops eviotite, might have a chance of holding him then aswell tho, don't quote me, can't do calcs as I'm still working, access to haze helps, problem is lack of sustain, only sustain would be rest or pain split, idk.Just a random thought, probably completely wrong but I'll run some calcs later anyway.

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42 minutes ago, redspawn said:

I do believe however that stuff like dusclops eviotite, might have a chance of holding him then aswell tho, don't quote me, can't do calcs as I'm still working, access to haze helps, problem is lack of sustain, only sustain would be rest or pain split, idk.Just a random thought, probably completely wrong but I'll run some calcs later anyway.

Dusclops is far too passive, it'd essentially just give stuff like Hydreigon a free switch.

It's also pretty easy to wear down with hazards and doesn't have reliable recovery to stay at full all the time, something it desperately needs.

+1 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Payback (50 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 60-72 (40.8 - 48.9%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Edited by suigin
whoops level 100 calc

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28 minutes ago, suigin said:

Dusclops is far too passive, it'd essentially just give stuff like Hydreigon a free switch.

It's also pretty easy to wear down with hazards and doesn't have reliable recovery to stay at full all the time, something it desperately needs.

+1 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Payback (50 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 114-136 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

rip dreams, no clue then honestly of a possible solution. 

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11 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Wobuffet is the only thing that I have seem being able to hold a Conkeldurr, but that was a long stall battle.

My biggest fear is that the moment Flame Orb becomes a thing Wobb will be downright mandatory in order to remove Conk and even then it could become a mindgame of whether it bulks up or attacks with Payback.

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I dont agree on the whole orb thing. Granted conk will be harder to check cause the power boost, but at the same time conk won´t have nearly as many safe switch ins, which is right now one of its assets with leftovers.

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2 minutes ago, pachima said:

I dont agree on the whole orb thing. Granted conk will be harder to check cause the power boost, but at the same time conk won´t have nearly as many safe switch ins, which is right now one of its assets with leftovers.

I mean it won't be able to set up constantly on the face of opponents without much care like it does right now but at the same time it won't need to since it can turn anything that doesn't resist Drain Punch into a health Slurpee after a single boost. I could be completely wrong and setting up with Leftovers will remain the most popular choice, but the immediate power Flame Orb provides also makes it way way more threatening than before.

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12 minutes ago, suigin said:

I mean it won't be able to set up constantly on the face of opponents without much care like it does right now but at the same time it won't need to since it can turn anything that doesn't resist Drain Punch into a health Slurpee after a single boost. I could be completely wrong and setting up with Leftovers will remain the most popular choice, but the immediate power Flame Orb provides also makes it way way more threatening than before.

I cant disagree with that, since its true. The problem is that orb conkeldurr will have to be played differently than the way it is played now. Most of the time, conk just has some safe switches leftovers provides it with and it starts threateningly from there. All I am saying is that comparing both seems wrong, since one´s mentality when using one or another have to differ by a significant margin. Overall, I believe orb is better, but we all know how of a playstyle the majority of this community goes with, so I also believe its too early to predict something like this.

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30 minutes ago, codylramey said:

Is it worth discussing wobbofet and other trapping mons until we get team preview?

it definitely is.

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55 minutes ago, codylramey said:

Is it worth discussing wobbofet and other trapping mons until we get team preview?

We have been, for over a month. It's not a very simple issue 

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13 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

We have been, for over a month. It's not a very simple issue 

any chance you guys could share, what are the points in favor of them being allowed to roam free in OU and against?

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There is actually a few things in this meta that could prolly be considered broken w/o team preview. Discussing and banning them all might be pointless. BUT i think trappers in particular are different than something like les say conkeldur  bc of their uncompetitive nature.

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2 hours ago, redspawn said:

any chance you guys could share, what are the points in favor of them being allowed to roam free in OU and against?

Well this is just my own personal viewpoint, but I'll try to play devil's advocate. The number one argument for NOT banning them is simply usage - how can these pokemon be considered so broken they have to go when Duggy is on less than 10% of teams and Wobbu is on about 6%? In addition, some would argue that they're both exploitable and come with a lot of risk - if wobbu loses a 50/50 and, say, counters on a predicted physical move and eats a swords dance instead, it can have serious ramifications for your team. Duggy locking into something like CB EQ similarly allows something like DD mence or gyara to come in and wreak havoc. Another potential argument: these pokemon are not broken, their abilities are broken. This opens up a wormhole into discussing complex ban situations, or the flat ban of an ability like shadow tag and arena trap, which comes with a whole new set of issues.

 

On the pro ban side (where I currently lean), you've got two pokemon who are pretty clearly uncompetitive at their very core. They restrict your opponent's autonomy so severely that often times not even great foresight or counter-play (as if this is even possible) can avoid the probable outcome - that duggy or wobbu is probably going to do its job most of the time without requiring a lot of risk for the user. 

 

All these  and more have been tossed around and debated for a bit now, but we're still investigating subjects like "CAN we do a flat ability ban" and other logistical things. 

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I very rarely meet a dugtrio or wobb when i matchmaking that's true.. I'd say almost never, but man when it's a ranked or even more important a tournament match.. there they are immediatly ready to take me from behind and make my hole bigger than greece debt

I see you have a OnePunch avatar so i ll put in this spoiler how it feels to play against those 2 pokermons

Spoiler

EnchantedSerpentineLeopardseal-max-1mb.g

 

Edited by Mitch730

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5 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

So... did you guys found any effective answer for conkel? We don't have wobb anymore btw.

Impish breloom.

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