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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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On 1/6/2022 at 10:41 PM, Ziiiiio said:

Is Sand devil makes Garchomp strong? The answer is no.

  Remove sand devil will not effect the balance, that's my opinnon...

    

It makes offensive counterplay to it a lot better.  Let's say your best way to beat a Garchomp using an offensive team is something faster using an ice move, you may not have that many pokemon meeting those characteristics in your team all at once, therefore if the chomp dodges said ice move from said move then options for dealing with it are a lot more limited. It's something that forces people to use defensive checks completely ruining an entire playstyle (We have a lot of other things like that, IE Conk, Kingdra) but this one is purely RNG based.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Because its ultimately not my decision, i'd rather a member of TC propose it or go along with it, I am going to say "Maybe".

 

That said, you can agree or disagree with this but I think its a harder argument to make currently than it is for UU currently.  I am sure you are going to say its the same argument and that may be true but I think its more obvious of one right now in UU than OU at this time.

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Quote

 

879813abf7cf9524b4edea595a7f0b2a.png

 

What is this?

 

This thread is being opened to discuss Dugtrio and its presence in the Overused Tier (OU).

 

Why?

 

Dugtrio is an enigma in PokeMMO, with discussion often flipping back and forth on whether it is broken, uncompetitive, or even a just a joke that should never be considered for a ban. This is largely due to Arena Trap, invalidating susceptible pokemon which only die to the three-headed mole as it is pivoted in off of a U-Turn, Volt Switch, predicted switch, or as a revenge killer. With the introduction of Volt-Turn strategies, Dugtrio has only gotten better. Add to that, its moveset has become far deeper and with Focus Sash it can now reliably stop faster, offensive threats. Given this, Dugtrio is being considered for a possible ban from the Over-Used Tier. It currently meets several banworthy definitions, whether that is uncompetitive (invalidates play styles), unhealthy (restricts the meta), or uber-support (too good not to use).

 

Was a Quick Ban considered?

 

Dugtrio was banned from NU, and afterward we entertained whether a buff in its attack would make it too good for the higher tiers. The Tier Council felt that an attack boost would not make it broken, and thus its attacked was returned to a base 100 and it was allowed entry to OU.

 

Downside?

 

Trap is a unique strategy that can be incredibly infuriating for opponents, but a strategy nevertheless. Dugtrio is effective in stall, balanced, and offensive teams, and its unique speed tier with access to priority can keep hyper-offensive teams and overpowered threats in check. Although, this should not be a reason to keep it in the tier. As is often said, we don't keep broken Pokemon in game to check other broken Pokemon.

 

Something else to consider is whether banning Dugtrio makes any sense at all, when it may be Arena Trap that is to blame. Regardless, at this point in time, we must look at Dugtrio for its ability to remove many common OU Pokemon, and consider Arena Trap later.

 

Calculations (Basic calcs, essentially Dugtrio has coverage/utility on almost everything excluding Bronzong Skarmory and very bulky defenses like Vaporeon Milotic, Swampert Hippowdon, etc)

Spoiler
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 90-108 (72 - 86.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 158-188 (82.7 - 98.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 212-250 (110.9 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Crobat: 114-136 (59.3 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 96-114 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 228-270 (134.1 - 158.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham: 90-106 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mismagius: 100-118 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 144-172 (92.9 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 134-158 (76.5 - 90.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 352-416 (201.1 - 237.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 102-120 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 272-320 (170 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 186-222 (123.1 - 147%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 216-254 (116.7 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 256-304 (176.5 - 209.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 108-127 (77.1 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 102-120 (75.5 - 88.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Dugtrio Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 140-168 (103.7 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 


 

Please discuss, and include which ban criteria you believe Dugtrio meets if you are in favor of a ban.

 

= )

 

 

Here I made it for you.

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21 minutes ago, gbwead said:

 

Here I made it for you.

Don’t be silly gb you know we have to have a 3 year testing period before we can even start thinking about how obviously uncompetitive it is (!)

Edited by Zymogen
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On 2/26/2022 at 8:12 PM, gbwead said:

 

Here I made it for you.

i don't think that staff will consideir their ban for now. He recently has been banned from UU, so staff need some time to avaliate if really dugtrio are broken or not in OU. Acorrding to their usage, and the argument used on suggest of King's Rock Ban(If a mon doesn't have 6% usage, then isn't viable), dugtrio in moment, isn't viable on tier because had 3% usage. "But community recognize that mon is anticompetitive and don't use the mon". Well, this can happen with Top Ranked Players, but novices doesn't have this good sense, and spam everything that players of here says that are "OverPowered". I need to remember Porygon-Z UU? That in first month, had 11% usage, and after one year, and a huge amount of players talking that mon are "OP" in UU, he are spammed by novices until reach on 20% Usage? Or King's Rock Cloyster, that before the post asking their ban, had 2% usage, and after post(the post, at least until the moment that i write this, idk if staff will ban item in future, didn't have the expected results.) starts to being spammed until become the most used item on cloyster

Edited by caioxlive13
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于2022/2/2 PM9点11分,caioxlive13 说:

I agree, isn't honest this.However, the problem is the Hypocrisy of players that ask ban of RNG-based strategys. He use the absurd wall cores that are ask for being haxed, and they are complaining about King's Rock Cloyster,and don't care about serene graçe togekiss,that have more flinch chance than Cloyster King's Rock, and with scarf, pass all OU mons that don't have buffed speed by any way(like Chlorophyll/Swift Swin/Dragon Dance/Sand Rush/Agility/Choice Scarf/Rock Polish/Shift Gear/Automotize).
 

The topic I started is based on RNG

Like King's Rock Cloyster, you're not statistically strong at either.

It's too easy to defend against Garchomp, but if you try to attack, it's absolutely deadly to your team when he escapes your ice or dragon.

 

And as I said at the beginning, Garchomp is definitely not strong because of Sand Devil, so you won't affect his balance.

 

The emergence of this combination is not inherently balanced, but once triggered, it makes the game too ridiculous.

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刚刚,Ziiiiio 说:

The topic I started is based on RNG

Like King's Rock Cloyster, you're not statistically strong at either.

It's too easy to defend against Garchomp, but if you try to attack, it's absolutely deadly to your team when he escapes your ice or dragon.

 

And as I said at the beginning, Garchomp is definitely not strong because of Sand Devil, so you won't affect his balance.

 

The emergence of this combination is not inherently balanced, but once triggered, it makes the game too ridiculous.

What he can do is dodge the 100% moves

This is very different from dealing with Choice scarf Togekiss. When I build a team, I can choose some reliable combinations such as Rotom + Choice scarf Darmanitan, and most of the single Tyranitar can even solve it.

 

The benefits of Sand Devil are unlimited; I even saw someone use Garchomp to switch directly into Starmie. Starmie used Rapid Spin but missed the target; it was killed by Garchomp with Choice Scarf, and Starmie users failed to clear Steath rock and lost the game.

 

I think at least keeps him unable to dodge 100% moves otherwise the game is really unstable.

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11 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

The topic I started is based on RNG

Like King's Rock Cloyster, you're not statistically strong at either.

It's too easy to defend against Garchomp, but if you try to attack, it's absolutely deadly to your team when he escapes your ice or dragon.

 

And as I said at the beginning, Garchomp is definitely not strong because of Sand Devil, so you won't affect his balance.

 

The emergence of this combination is not inherently balanced, but once triggered, it makes the game too ridiculous.

Is like i sayed: If you don't have scarfed mons, or lost your scarfed mons, you lost total control of match and need to rely on luck to win, vs a Scarfed Togekiss. Unlike Cloyster, that after shell smash , can be OHKO'ed with a Special Priority(Ex: Vaccum Wave) if King's Rock, surviving only if have sash and you didn't setted hazards, Togekiss is a mon more Bulky, so have defenses more higher and it's hard to kill it only with prioritys.

About Chomp, we don't know why staff don't discuss him, but we can suppose that they don't discuss this because one of more solid teams on Metagaming is Rain Teams, and remembering: Rain teams can change weather from Sandstorm to Rain, assuming that pelliper still alive. Sun teams are used too, so... Have ways realistics to remove sandstorm and with this, negating Sand veil's Effects. And in some update, they fixed mold breaker and they ignore the evasion boost from Sand Veil/Snow Cloak.

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3 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Comparing weak ass Choice Scarf Togekiss to a boosted Cloyster with King's Rock/Razor Fang is pretty hilarious. I guess we'll all just need to keep running Lucario and Infernape with Vacuum Wave.

I used vacuum Wave as an example, but anything that hit cloyster and are special, can OHKO him, or deal a lot of damage. Using Inner Focus mons, prioritys... Even Conkeldurr Mach Punch deal a lot of damage, and this is used too much in metagaming, is a fact.

And, check base stats difference, beetween Cloyster and Togekiss:

Cloyster:
image.png.ba0ad97972b83deb970ea43efc4eafe0.png

Togekiss:
image.png.ed186978a18d241b334703f9b3f2eab3.png

When i say that togekiss is worse than cloyster, is because of this. Unlike Cloyster, that can be OHKO'ed easily with special moves, and Conkeldurr Mach Punch can deal a lot of damage, after shell smash, Togekiss is a mon more Bulky, that have defenses more higher, and, with this, being more hard to get ko'ed.

About their speed, no comments.
145 * 1,5 = 217. This is sufficient to pass all mons that are Over Used.
Cloyster had 268, this is enough to pass all OU too.

Edited by caioxlive13
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On 25/3/2022 at 20:01, caioxlive13 said:




When i say that togekiss is worse than cloyster, is because of this. Unlike Cloyster, that can be OHKO'ed easily with special moves, and Conkeldurr Mach Punch can deal a lot of damage, after shell smash, Togekiss is a mon more Bulky, that have defenses more higher, and, with this, being more hard to get ko'ed.

About their speed, no comments.
145 * 1,5 = 217. This is sufficient to pass all mons that are Over Used.
Cloyster had 268, this is enough to pass all OU too.

Togekiss scarf needs a lot of hits if it wants to break a count to flinch, cloyster only needs one flinch to be able to finish his count, togekiss is slower than cloyster at +2, so most mon scarfs end up being faster than cloyster , not to mention that togekiss is necessarily locked in a mov, cloyster is able to flinch with both covers, your comparison does not make sense.

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23 hours ago, Huargensy said:

not to mention that togekiss is necessarily locked in a mov

And this is all that Togekiss players need. Air Slash. Some players abuse too much on luck, that even vs a blissey, keep spamming Air Slash in order to survive. But this is thing to most crazy people.

Edited by caioxlive13
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45 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

And this is all that Togekiss players need. Air Slash. Some players abuse too much on luck, that even vs a blissey, keep spamming Air Slash in order to survive. But this is thing to most crazy people.

252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 48-57 (13.2 - 15.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

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  • 3 months later...

So I've had the misfortune to go against the sand devil garchomp. I don't understand why this was ever allowed to stay lol. Seems like it breaks the spirit of the evasion clause. 

 

He's the number 1 most used pokemon and idk a single mon who runs ice moves that can actually afford to miss. I'm on my phone now so calculations are hard to do but maybe rotom? The hax makes it no fun, the fact that it's on such a strong mon makes it unbalanced imo.

 

I know some people say "hax is a part of the game" and that's true. But I much prefer a Meta where I get to choose what hax I am willing to deal with or not. If I choose to run hydro pump over surf and lose to a miss it feels like shit but at least it was my choice. I know that's not a standard that can apply everywhere, but when the number 1 poke is also using hax that breaks the spirit of a whole clause then we probably should look at it.

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1 hour ago, codylramey said:

So I've had the misfortune to go against the sand devil garchomp. I don't understand why this was ever allowed to stay lol. Seems like it breaks the spirit of the evasion clause. 

 

He's the number 1 most used pokemon and idk a single mon who runs ice moves that can actually afford to miss. I'm on my phone now so calculations are hard to do but maybe rotom? The hax makes it no fun, the fact that it's on such a strong mon makes it unbalanced imo.

 

I know some people say "hax is a part of the game" and that's true. But I much prefer a Meta where I get to choose what hax I am willing to deal with or not. If I choose to run hydro pump over surf and lose to a miss it feels like shit but at least it was my choice. I know that's not a standard that can apply everywhere, but when the number 1 poke is also using hax that breaks the spirit of a whole clause then we probably should look at it.

Sand Veil and Cursed Body are the most annoying and uncompetitive abilities in this game.

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21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Arena trap, Shadow Tag

Does arena trap work in this game? Gengar was able to switch out but maybe ghosts are immune to being trapped? Idk it's been so long.

22 hours ago, Imperial said:

Sand Veil and Cursed Body are the most annoying and uncompetitive abilities in this game.

How is cursed body uncompetitive? 

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