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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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TC's general thoughts on Conk? The meta has shifted to cover it so much that many teams are wide open for other threats now lol, i think this should be a testament to how much control it has over this tier

Edited by Lvkee
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For me, Conkeldurr is just a good solid mon. Sure, it retricts teambuilding perhaps slightly more than how casual threats would, but not to the extant where you open yourself up to significant drawbacks. Mons like Cofa, Hippo, Gengar, Skarmory, Reuniclus, Gliscor, Salamence, Tentacruel, Starmie, Chandelure, Jellicent, Sigilyph and many others are just good addition to any team even if Conkeldurr wasn't around. I don't feel like Conkeldurr forces me to run many of those because I would most likely play several of them in the same team anyways. 

 

As for the synergy of Conkeldurr + Hydreigon, well I don't think it's surprising for Dark special mon to pair up well with a Fighting physical mon. Without Fairy type, that combination will always be devastating and will require more than one single answer for both these threats. Imo, that's completly fine and OU is overall in a very good state right now.

 

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20 hours ago, Lvkee said:

TC's general thoughts on Conk? The meta has shifted to cover it so much that many teams are wide open for other threats now lol, i think this should be a testament to how much control it has over this tier

I'm still not a fan of Conk. Jellicent and Spiritomb are on the rise to deal with it but not nearly enough, they do both have merits outside of being a Conk counter but they aren't that great compared to the rest of the OU metagame. I am aware that Conk does somewhat suffer from 4MSS but often enough the combination of drain, mach, facade + stone edge/rock blast is enough to leave a dent or sweep a team mid to late game. Without the right tools this mon becomes unkillable with drain punch spam healing it back to a healthy amount to then punish the next mon in the way. But surely with Conk's popularity that would mean running a counter or two is necessary? Well obviously, the problem rears its head when the only real counters are Cofagrigus and Spiritomb; everything else is merely a check (or dead with a bad predict) until you scout the moveset of Conk e.g. tpunch + ice punch Conk would make short work of Salamence + Jellicent. I believe Conk invalidates a lot of mons from functioning so it should be looked into further.

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14 hours ago, gbwead said:

For me, Conkeldurr is just a good solid mon. Sure, it retricts teambuilding perhaps slightly more than how casual threats would, but not to the extant where you open yourself up to significant drawbacks. Mons like Cofa, Hippo, Gengar, Skarmory, Reuniclus, Gliscor, Salamence, Tentacruel, Starmie, Chandelure, Jellicent, Sigilyph and many others are just good addition to any team even if Conkeldurr wasn't around. I don't feel like Conkeldurr forces me to run many of those because I would most likely play several of them in the same team anyways. 

 

As for the synergy of Conkeldurr + Hydreigon, well I don't think it's surprising for Dark special mon to pair up well with a Fighting physical mon. Without Fairy type, that combination will always be devastating and will require more than one single answer for both these threats. Imo, that's completly fine and OU is overall in a very good state right now.

 

Don't you think it is a slight issue that many of the checks you mention require some level of prediction to be able to actually handle him? I would also disagree with the assertion that he does not restrict teambuilding, as you pretty much have to limit the amount of mons that are weak to conk or get outraded by it. It is not just about having answers but limiting ur mons that let it come in for free. This is only exacerbated by teleport Blissey/Chansey which pairs perfectly with Conk. The fewer real answers to conk and the immediate pressure it puts on the opp when it gets a safe entry also makes it very easy to abuse the opp with a good double. Teleport into Conk -> Force Cofag Entry -> Double into -> Hydreigon. Sequences like this are common and have little counterplay without predictions/risk. 

 

Conk having a large variance of moves and viable spreads also adds to his issue. The variance in speed investment or the risk of facing a bulk up variant only adds to the immense threat and pressure he puts on teams. Unlike other high pressure mons like volc he has fairly few drawbacks with his impressive bulk and access to priority. 

Edited by Dontea
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1 hour ago, Dontea said:

Don't you think it is a slight issue that many of the checks you mention require some level of prediction to be able to actually handle him?

No. If you want to play stall, you have plenty of very solid risk free options against conk. If you want to play more offense or balance, you can play more risky answers in exchange for more overall pressure. There are so many different ways to deal with Conk that it really doesn't bother me if some answers are more risky than others.

 

1 hour ago, Dontea said:

I would also disagree with the assertion that he does not restrict teambuilding, as you pretty much have to limit the amount of mons that are weak to conk or get outraded by it.

I litteraly said: "Sure, [Conk] restricts teambuilding" Every respectable threat should restrict teambuilding in a way or another. That's not a problem unless Conk restricts teambuilding too much which I do not believe is the case and I suppose you believe is the case.
 

1 hour ago, Dontea said:

It is not just about having answers but limiting ur mons that let it come in for free. This is only exacerbated by teleport Blissey/Chansey which pairs perfectly with Conk.

That's true for any threat, not just Conk. You never want to allow free switches. Conk doesn't get easier free switches than other threats. 
 

1 hour ago, Dontea said:

The fewer real answers to conk and the immediate pressure it puts on the opp when it gets a safe entry also makes it very easy to abuse the opp with a good double. Teleport into Conk -> Force Cofag Entry -> Double into -> Hydreigon. Sequences like this are common and have little counterplay without predictions/risk. 

I really don't see the issue at all. You took the risk of Double Switching and you get yourself in a better position because of it. Good on you if your risk paid off, but that's not always the case. Also, what's preventing you from having an answer to Hydreigon anyways? If you have an answer for Conk and another for Hydreigon, I fail to see the issue of that sequence.

 

1 hour ago, Dontea said:

Conk having a large variance of moves and viable spreads also adds to his issue. The variance in speed investment or the risk of facing a bulk up variant only adds to the immense threat and pressure he puts on teams. Unlike other high pressure mons like volc he has fairly few drawbacks with his impressive bulk and access to priority. 

Conk always runs two fighting moves: Mach Punch + Drain Punch/Close Combat. For coverage, Conk always runs either a shitty accuracy and contactless Rock Move or Ice Punch. The last move is either Facade or Bulk Up.

That's how I would describe Conk's variance in two lines. He doesn't have much to work with, but what he does have is indeed quite good.

 

The way I see it. Conk has answers. Those answers are sometimes risky depending on your own playstyle. Conk also has important drawbacks, namely speed and recovery. Conk is outsped by almost everything in OU. Conk is always prone to chip dmg. It doesn't have any immunities. It's not immune to any hazard. It's only way to regain hp is through Drain Punch which is resisted by 11 out of 40 OU mons and makes contact with all the Rocky Helmet users of the tier. Its lack of speed is compensated with priority Mach Punch which encounters the same issues as Drain Punch. 

Overall, Conkeldurr remains a great OU mon and a considerable threat, but there is no way Conk can be seen as banworthy in our current meta.

 

 

 

Edited by gbwead
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3 hours ago, gbwead said:

No. If you want to play stall, you have plenty of very solid risk free options against conk. If you want to play more offense or balance, you can play more risky answers in exchange for more overall pressure. There are so many different ways to deal with Conk that it really doesn't bother me if some answers are more risky than others.

 

I litteraly said: "Sure, [Conk] restricts teambuilding" Every respectable threat should restrict teambuilding in a way or another. That's not a problem unless Conk restricts teambuilding too much which I do not believe is the case and I suppose you believe is the case.
 

That's true for any threat, not just Conk. You never want to allow free switches. Conk doesn't get easier free switches than other threats. 
 

I really don't see the issue at all. You took the risk of Double Switching and you get yourself in a better position because of it. Good on you if your risk paid off, but that's not always the case. Also, what's preventing you from having an answer to Hydreigon anyways? If you have an answer for Conk and another for Hydreigon, I fail to see the issue of that sequence.

 

Conk always runs two fighting moves: Mach Punch + Drain Punch/Close Combat. For coverage, Conk always runs either a shitty accuracy and contactless Rock Move or Ice Punch. The last move is either Facade or Bulk Up.

That's how I would describe Conk's variance in two lines. He doesn't have much to work with, but what he does have is indeed quite good.

 

The way I see it. Conk has answers. Those answers are sometimes risky depending on your own playstyle. Conk also has important drawbacks, namely speed and recovery. Conk is outsped by almost everything in OU. Conk is always prone to chip dmg. It doesn't have any immunities. It's not immune to any hazard. It's only way to regain hp is through Drain Punch which is resisted by 11 out of 40 OU mons and makes contact with all the Rocky Helmet users of the tier. Its lack of speed is compensated with priority Mach Punch which encounters the same issues as Drain Punch. 

Overall, Conkeldurr remains a great OU mon and a considerable threat, but there is no way Conk can be seen as banworthy in our current meta.

 

 

 

Ty for the in depth response, first off while you initially said he restricts team building you go on to make the point that he has tons of potential counters and that all well built teams would be running these mons anyway. Which seems to imply that he isn't an especially difficult or unique threat. 

 

I also agree with most of your general assessment of conk but still feel like you are downplaying his strengths. Many of the counters you initially mention would be classified as "soft checks" meaning they can either counter it by prediction or revenge kill it/force it out. Even mons like skarmory can lose to conk 1v1 especially if it isn't properly teched for it. This means that if you are not running a legit counter as in Cofag/Spiritomb etc you are 100% relying on prediction to deal with Conk.  

 

I think you are overplaying his drawbacks and underplaying his strengths quite a bit, just to be right. Dealing with Conk requires either a hard counter or some level of risk. Unless you are playing semi/stall which will have dedicated answers to such a common threat you open yourself up to flipping coins. Hand waiving the fact that you have no choice but to play the prediction game with conk unless your playing stall is an indication of it being unhealthy if anything. 

 

Yes, more offensive playstyles can apply more pressure to Conk but against teams with no hard check he will almost always trade favorably. I really do not think Conk is as much of an issue as is his combination with teleport. Without teleport Conk needs to be played much more carefully but in combination with teleport and the fact that blissey/chansey is the most common carrier who also happens to handle many of ur listed counters quite well make him so much harder to deal with. 

 

Analyzing him in a vacuum I actually agree with you. But I have a hard time seeing Conk as healthy just due to the fact he forces so many coin tosses. 

 

Sorry for my formatting I am responding from mobile. 

 

 

Edited by Dontea
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Tyra conkel seems more dangerous to me than the combination with hydreigon, pursuit of some ghost / psychic, you eliminate crow's feet and the drain that conkel will spam will be to fear, skarmory at a certain point ceases to be a counter, because you must be careful of roost in front of the, hippowdon is more constant than skarmory, but ice punch takes a good toll, 2hits ko if I remember correctly, honestly, I think this should be analyzed, I see it unbalanced unless, until I put the hidden

 

Edited by Huargensy
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On 3/2/2021 at 5:59 PM, gbwead said:

No. If you want to play stall, you have plenty of very solid risk free options against conk. If you want to play more offense or balance, you can play more risky answers in exchange for more overall pressure. There are so many different ways to deal with Conk that it really doesn't bother me if some answers are more risky than others.

This

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On 3/3/2021 at 1:00 PM, Huargensy said:

Tyra conkel seems more dangerous to me than the combination with hydreigon, pursuit of some ghost / psychic, you eliminate crow's feet and the drain that conkel will spam will be to fear, skarmory at a certain point ceases to be a counter, because you must be careful of roost in front of the, hippowdon is more constant than skarmory, but ice punch takes a good toll, 2hits ko if I remember correctly, honestly, I think this should be analyzed, I see it unbalanced unless, until I put the hidden

 

This is literally true for any fighting type in OU

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