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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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On 4/10/2020 at 9:43 AM, RysPicz said:

I would like to begin a discussion about potential ban for Wobbufett from OU under uncompetitive/ support characteristics. I think it is high time to finally bring this to the table as over the tournaments I've been spectating, the problem only seems to grow.

 

At first I was wondering where is the real problem. Is it Tickle, is it Wobbu itself, is it Shadow Tag? One could argue that it's Shadow Tag but there's nothing much that can be done about it as it's Wobbu's only ability. If we eliminate tickle, we will still have Encore/ Charm, which would make Dugtrio (or some other incredibly scary mon) switch-in easier. In my opinion, Wobbu in itself is the issue and thus the mon deserves the "Iron Boot of Ghaey" from OU.

 

First of all, Wobbu is incredibly problematic when it comes to tournament duration. Once it switches in, it begins stalling with Encore/ Tickle and due to it's immense bulk, it is capable of doing this multiple times. Not to mention that I've seen the cases when Wobbu got to almost full life after stalling some mon's PP dry just by spamming Tickle.

 

When opp is weakened enough, Dugtrio comes into picture, sets rocks and then just KOs with a single EQ when the opponent is unable to do absolutely anything (as he's trapped). This is uncompetitive to a degree that I can barely find words to describe it (and those that I do find are not suitable for public discussion).

 

It's support characteristics are unparalelled (allowing another mon to switch in safely, set up and just beat the F out of enemy team) when it comes to OU tier and the Wobbu + Dug trapping strats are very uncompetitive. We came to the point that I keep seeing one, same team being spammed in matchmaking or tournaments over and over, thus making the metagame stale (though I'd rather not start a discussion about Wobbu being unhealthy for the tier as it suits uncompetitive/ support characteristics far better).

 

 

Not sure how many other people see things the way I do but it's about time to start sorting tiers out after the Sinnoh update and I believe that getting rid of Wobbu is the first step we'd need to do. Please share your thoughts.

The abuse on wobb+dug has increase quite a lot. 

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18 minutes ago, Redalie said:

Ban Garchomp 

 

reason  ?  he is broken

2 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

go garchomp discussion thread he broken for this meta

 

 

(wobbufet legit)

Counterpoint: It's not broken

 

Phew almost had to write 5 words on that one, I'm sweating bullets.

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Assuming that garchomp has a move for Skarmory,

 

The only way to kill him is by sacrificing one pokemon to inflict ""chip damage""" and revege kill with something with more speed, and there is only 6 in OU :

 

Dugtrio, Infernape, Mienshao, Gengar, Jolteon, Starmie.

 

If you add the fact that Garchomp has a Yachee berry, the damage outputs are still inconclusive:

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 146-174 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 109-130 (59.5 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 116-138 (63.3 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 117-138 (63.9 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-199 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (NICE CB DUDE)

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 104-124 (56.8 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 138-163 (75.4 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

And at least, 90-95% scarfed mons are useless versus him, even with some chip damage.

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Posted (edited)

There is a difference between not being able to ohko it and constantly losing mons, to at best, chip it.

I'm not gonna post calcs about it again, we all know what this beast can do.

Because of its awesome base stats, yache berry and a pretty good coverage with fire, dragon and ground moves Garchomp doesn't have any counters in OU, the only counters for garchomp are umbreon, scarf cloyster, mandibuzz and scarf mamoswine. None of them are used in OU nor have any other utility than being a garchomp counter.

I personally don't think Garchomp is broken in OU because offensive teams still win against it. I also like the idea of having a great wall breaker in OU. Although, I think garchomp is kind of unhealthy, in fact, stall teams have to run one of the counters I listed above to not lose to garchomp, it clearly makes, IMO, some playstyles more viable than some others, thus why I think it's unhealthy and kind of centralizing for stall teams.

I really don't know if it should be banned as I could see great arguments for both choices, if anything though, I'd go for a test ban to see how the meta turns into.

 

Edited by Aerun

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13 hours ago, suigin said:

 

Counterpoint: It's not broken

 

Phew almost had to write 5 words on that one, I'm sweating bullets.

I am not arguing because I know how you are here I would only waste my time,

if a player can't see for himself that something is broken, well that player = bad simply for me

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14 hours ago, suigin said:

 

Counterpoint: It's not broken

 

Phew almost had to write 5 words on that one, I'm sweating bullets.

Cool arguments. Convinced me.

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Posted (edited)

Let me start off by saying that by no means Smogon should be relied on as evidence for our metagame, however it can provide some good insight as to why something is strong or what mons can deal with another mon. Here is the information Smogon provided as a check/counter for Garchomp in BW OU:

Quote

Garchomp is incredibly difficult to outright counter due to its versatility and wide movepool. Skarmory and Bronzong are generally the best choices, as they resist Outrage and are immune to Earthquake. Just make sure to keep them away from Fire Blast, especially from the mixed set. Outside of these two, however, dealing with Garchomp defensively largely comes down to prediction, as most defensive checks take one STAB move really well but can easily fall to the other. Steel-types such as Heatran, Jirachi, Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Forretress can all take Outrage pretty well. However, all of them can be swiftly eliminated with Earthquake or Fire Blast. Landorus-T and Gliscor are immune to Earthquake, but repeated Outrages can take their toll, while a Draco Meteor from the mixed set maims both of them on the spot.

Using Speed to beat Garchomp is generally the safer route to take thanks to its movepool dealing with most defensive responses. Latios and Latias naturally outspeed Garchomp and can OHKO it with their powerful Draco Meteors. Choice Scarf Latios is most notable, as it will outspeed Garchomp even if it's benefiting from a Choice Scarf or Salac Berry boost. Choice Scarf Dragon-types such as Salamence, Kyurem-B, and Hydreigon can destroy Garchomp with their powerful Outrages and Draco Meteors as long as Garchomp isn't benefiting from a boost in Speed or a Substitute. Mamoswine can bypass Garchomp's high Speed with Ice Shard, but Yache Berry variants can survive the attack and retaliate. Weavile isn't nearly as common as Mamoswine, but it too has Ice Shard to bypass boosted Speed, while Ice Punch allows it to KO Yache Berry variants. Priority from the likes of Breloom, Scizor, and Lucario can finish off Garchomp, but they need it to be weakened a fair bit, as Garchomp's physical bulk is nothing to scoff at.

Firstly, I would like to point out we do not have a lot of these mons but on the flip side a few of them like Heatran and Jirachi were only checks because of Outrage locking Garchomp in. Most Garchomps we have to deal with carry Dragon Claw due to Outrage still following previous gens base power of 90, this obviously gives way for things like Mandibuzz being able to wall non Stone Edge variants. 

Before I continue I would like to list what I believe to be the current viable Garchomp sets:

Spoiler
 
 
 
 
Spoiler

 

SD + 3 Attacks:

Garchomp @ Yache Berry / Lum Berry  / Life Orb
Ability: Sand Veil  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe  or 252 Atk / 4Spdef / 252spe
Naive / Jolly Nature  
- Swords Dance  
- Earthquake  
- Dragon Claw  
- Fire Blast  / Stone Edge

 

Chain Chomp:

Garchomp @ Life Orb  
Ability: Sand Veil  
Level: 50  
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe  
Naive Nature  
- Draco Meteor  
- Earthquake  
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance 
- Fire Blast  

 

SD + Rocks:

Garchomp @ Yache Berry  / Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Veil  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Spdef / 252 Spe  
Jolly Nature  
- Swords Dance  
- Earthquake  
- Dragon Claw  
- Stealth Rock

 

And here are two other possible sets you may run into:

 

SD + Salac:

Garchomp @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sand Veil  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Spdef / 252 Spe  
Jolly Nature  
- Swords Dance  
- Earthquake  
- Dragon Claw  
- Substitute

 

Choice Scarf / Choice Band:

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Sand Veil  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Spdef / 252 Spe  or 252 Atk / 4 Spa / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature 
- Stone Edge / Dual Chop 
- Earthquake  
- Dragon Claw  
- Stealth Rock / Fire Blast / Stone Edge

 

I firmly believe that each set has a switch in, for example the Mandibuzz I mentioned earlier should beat variants without Stone Edge or say a Porygon2 could deal with Chain Chomp very well. However, a lot of people are concerned about Yache Berry variants being able to tank a hit, albeit annoying there are some mons that can muscle through it like Weavile, Mamoswime and Conkeldurr. Even if you are in a bad situation just chipping Garchomp can put Yache variants in range of something like a Starmies Ice Beam.

 

Here is a list of mons (OU/UU) that I believe can have some success (depending on the set) against Garchomp defensively (walls/tanks):

  • Mandibuzz
  • Porygon2
  • Skarmory
  • Ferrothorn
  • Forretress
  • Gastrodon
  • Rotom forms 
  • Gyarados
  • Bronzong
  • Gliscor
  • Hippowdon
  • Chansey/Blissey (Chain Chomp)
  • Umbreon
  • Wobbufett

Obviously some mons here cannot outright beat "X" Garchomp set but can pivot into something else to check it. For example you could pivot from a Skarmory into a Infernape on the predicted Fire Blast. Now this requires predictions and you will never get them right all the time, but that is just a part of Pokemon. You may even end up with Garchomp over predicting and you end up killing it because of it.  

 

To expand on the mons that can handle Garchomp offensively:

  • Any Dragon with a Choice Scarf can outspeed it and kill it with a Draco Meteor e.g. Salamence, Hydreigon
  • Stab Ice Moves e.g. Mamoswime, Weavile, Cloyster
  • Strong mons e.g. Flame Orb + Guts Conkeldurr, Life Orb Starmie, Choice Band Infernape
  • Priority (to deal chip or finish it off) e.g. Scizor, Breloom, Lucario, Azumarill

 

Just for a quick tldr:

Garchomp is bulky and has some switch ins but it can be killed (even OHKO'd) and switched into depending on the set, just have to predict a little more and just accept that if you play stall it will most likely take a mon or put it very low.

 

Edited by xXBlu3BreathXx
Spoiler broke don't know what happened.

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Togekiss was a pain for stall too and ppl had to adapt and run things like careful dnite or even timid milo, saying that a mon is broken because stall has to run a counter for it, its just stupid, with all due respect

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Let me start off by saying that by no means Smogon should be relied on as evidence for our metagame, however it can provide some good insight as to why something is strong or what mons can deal with another mon. Here is the information Smogon provided as a check/counter for Garchomp in BW OU:

Firstly, I would like to point out we do not have a lot of these mons but on the flip side a few of them like Heatran and Jirachi were only checks because of Outrage locking Garchomp in. Most Garchomps we have to deal with carry Dragon Claw due to Outrage still following previous gens base power of 90, this obviously gives way for things like Mandibuzz being able to wall non Stone Edge variants. 

Before I continue I would like to list what I believe to be the current viable Garchomp sets:

  Reveal hidden contents
 
 
 
 
Spoiler

 

SD + 3 Attacks:

Garchomp @ Yache Berry / Lum Berry  / Life Orb
Ability: Sand Veil  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe  or 252 Atk / 4Spdef / 252spe
Naive / Jolly Nature  
- Swords Dance  
- Earthquake  
- Dragon Claw  
- Fire Blast  / Stone Edge

 

Chain Chomp:

Garchomp @ Life Orb  
Ability: Sand Veil  
Level: 50  
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe  
Naive Nature  
- Draco Meteor  
- Earthquake  
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance 
- Fire Blast  

 

SD + Rocks:

Garchomp @ Yache Berry  / Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Veil  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Spdef / 252 Spe  
Jolly Nature  
- Swords Dance  
- Earthquake  
- Dragon Claw  
- Stealth Rock

 

And here are two other possible sets you may run into:

 

SD + Salac:

Garchomp @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sand Veil  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Spdef / 252 Spe  
Jolly Nature  
- Swords Dance  
- Earthquake  
- Dragon Claw  
- Substitute

 

Choice Scarf / Choice Band:

Garchomp @ Yache Berry  / Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Veil  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Spdef / 252 Spe  or 252 Atk / 4 Spa / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature 
- Stone Edge / Dual Chop 
- Earthquake  
- Dragon Claw  
- Stealth Rock / Fire Blast / Stone Edge

 

I firmly believe that each set has a switch in, for example the Mandibuzz I mentioned earlier should beat variants without Stone Edge or say a Porygon2 could deal with Chain Chomp very well. However, a lot of people are concerned about Yache Berry variants being able to tank a hit, albeit annoying there are some mons that can muscle through it like Weavile, Mamoswime and Conkeldurr. Even if you are in a bad situation just chipping Garchomp can put Yache variants in range of something like a Starmies Ice Beam.

 

Here is a list of mons (OU/UU) that I believe can have some success (depending on the set) against Garchomp defensively (walls/tanks):

  • Mandibuzz
  • Porygon2
  • Skarmory
  • Ferrothorn
  • Forretress
  • Gastrodon
  • Rotom forms 
  • Gyarados
  • Bronzong
  • Gliscor
  • Hippowdon
  • Chansey/Blissey (Chain Chomp)
  • Umbreon
  • Wobbufett

Obviously some mons here cannot outright beat "X" Garchomp set but can pivot into something else to check it. For example you could pivot from a Skarmory into a Infernape on the predicted Fire Blast. Now this requires predictions and you will never get them right all the time, but that is just a part of Pokemon. You may even end up with Garchomp over predicting and you end up killing it because of it.  

 

To expand on the mons that can handle Garchomp offensively:

  • Any Dragon with a Choice Scarf can outspeed it and kill it with a Draco Meteor e.g. Salamence, Hydreigon
  • Stab Ice Moves e.g. Mamoswime, Weavile, Cloyster
  • Strong mons e.g. Flame Orb + Guts Conkeldurr, Life Orb Starmie, Choice Band Infernape
  • Priority (to deal chip or finish it off) e.g. Scizor, Breloom, Lucario, Azumarill

 

Just for a quick tldr:

Garchomp is bulky and has some switch ins but it can be killed (even OHKO'd )and switched into depending on the set, just have to predict a little more and just accept that if you play stall it will most likely take a mon or put it very low.

 

Finally a good response, thank you. I won´t refute your comments, cause they seem on point, but there is something I would like to point that you seem to be overlooking. And that is Garchomp´s bulk. in fact, Garchomp has a bulk really similar to mandibuzz on both sides of the spectrum. With this: (And assuming a 0 hp invested chomp)

- Hydreigon does not possess draco meteor, and dragon pulse is only a 25% roll. 

- No ice shard is able to ohko garchomp, unless they possess a boosting item. And note all ice shard users can be ohkoed by a mixed chomp. (And assuming no yache)

- Banded infernape does 89% Maximum with close combat.

- Priority is irrelevant cause garchomp takes les than half by all those priority moves, the stronger being banded bpunch from admant scizor, that deals 57% MAX.

 

This is, imo, Garchomp´s issue in the tier. You just cannot outright ohko it, unless with really specified stuff, and the moment you try to chip it before proceeding to ohko, chances are it had already killed something. If this is enough to warrant a ban, or not, it is something I would like further discussion upon, but I feel its bulk cannot be overlooked.

Nevertheless, great post. 

 

EDIT: allow me to post something else regarding Smogon´s input. 

- We do not possess draco meteor.

- We do not possess Landorus

-We do not possess toxic orb Gliscor.

- We do not possess boosted Outrage, that although it may sound a nerf to chomp, it also makes the opponent not able to play around Outrages and use their steels to beat chomp while locked.

-We also do not possess the latwins.

Edited by pachima

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5 minutes ago, pachima said:

Finally a good response, thank you. I won´t refute your comments, cause they seem on point, but there is something I would like to point that you seem to be overlooking. And that is Garchomp´s bulk. in fact, Garchomp has a bulk really similar to mandibuzz on both sides of the spectrum. With this: (And assuming a 0 hp invested chomp)

- Hydreigon does not possess draco meteor, and dragon pulse is only a 25% roll. 

Small mistake on my part sometimes things slip, regardless Modest Scarf Hydreigon has a pretty good shot at killing it.

 

252+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 176-210 (96.1 - 114.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

- No ice shard is able to ohko garchomp, unless they possess a boosting item. And note all ice shard users can be ohkoed by a mixed chomp. (And assuming no yache)

I mean its impossible to know the set unless you have your opponent scouted, also I don't believe it is fair to assume the Ice Shard users wont carry a boosting item but yes Yache will lower the damage quite a bit. Regardless an Adamant Mamoswine without an item has a chance to OHKO non Yache variants.

252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 160-192 (87.4 - 104.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

- Banded infernape does 89% Maximum with close combat.

I didn't say Infernape would one shot it, I just listed it because it deals a significant amount of damage to it.

- Priority is irrelevant cause garchomp takes les than half by all those priority moves, the stronger being banded bpunch from admant scizor, that deals 57% MAX.

Like the last point, its not that it would kill Garchomp. I mentioned them because they can finish off Garchomp or put it in range for something like Infernape mentioned earlier.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Probably best to keep the arguing about Garchomp at a minimum here and wait for the discussion thread.

edit: also stall is not the only playstyle that struggles by chomp, every playstyle stall suffers because of it

Edited by gbwead

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Posted (edited)

 

4 hours ago, kiwi said:

Togekiss was a pain for stall too and ppl had to adapt and run things like careful dnite or even timid milo, saying that a mon is broken because stall has to run a counter for it, its just stupid, with all due respect

This isn't a comment regarding Garchomp, but it's regarding your assessment of how something isn't broken because you can run a counter for it.  For me the problem arises when you:

 

1) Mostly run either one specific mon to deal with one threat, or

2) One mon with a specific set (and inferior set) just to counter a threat. 

 

An example of 1) is having Cofagrigus exclusively for Conk.  I don't think this mon would see so much usage if not for Conk, but I could be wrong about this.  Conk is a mon that can be threatening for almost every playstyle.  A bulk up set has the potential to clean through offensive teams if it can set up on something like a crunch locked TTar, or Fire Punch locked Dragonite.  Its access to priority means that you'll have a hard time revenge killing it too. 

 

An example of 2) is running Timid Milotic exclusively for Togekiss.  I understand that stall teams need to adapt to account for certain threats, but here we're asking stall teams to adapt in order to not get flinch haxed,  which to me is completely BS.  Not to mention that Timid Togekiss can sweep through non-stall teams like slow ttar / conk / ss cloyster / scarf chomp / cofa / speedy mence defogger.  This thing has very good bulk that can stop it from being revenge killed so easily.  Timid Milotic, to me, will always be inferior to the bold version because the lack of physical bulk makes it very difficult to switch into physical attacks from something like Hippo or Darmanitan.  Careful Dnite isn't even a guaranteed answer to Togekiss.  If a togekiss boosts to +2, and then crits it the next turn, that Dnite is in massive trouble.  This is a mon that only promotes luck over skill, and its access to Nasty Plot just enhances that.  

 

------------------------------------

 

My point regarding the above two mons is that they can be a pain for almost any kind of playstyle.  I don't feel that way about Garchomp, because I see it as being more threatening for stall than for offense.  I haven't had any issues with Chomp so far, and so I can't accurately comment on it.  But for me there are more pressing mons than Garchomp.

Edited by NikhilR

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Posted (edited)

It seems banning anything is not an option for OU, so I guess opening discussion threads about OU threats will not be allowed either. Therefore, I will use this seemingly purposeless thread to share my thoughts about our current OU meta. We have various threats and, depending on our playstyle, these threats can be handled in various ways.

 

Togekiss for instance was regarded as a pretty centralising figure in OU and for some it remains problematic to this day. When it first appeared, it was a terrible menace for both stall teams and offensive teams since it was appearing to be unwallable and impossible to OHKO. I personally never thought Togekiss was banworthy, but always thought Togekiss was worthy of a tiering discussion which I opened after receiving permission. It turned out Togekiss had some exploitable flaws. Offensive teams through mons like Jolteon and Dragonite were able to check Togekiss relatively well, on top of popular scarf locked mons like Ttar and Magnezone. Defensive teams developed other types of counters like Milotic Timid and Careful Dragonite, both of which were decently successful against Togekiss but also against the rest of the OU metagame. There was also various gimmicky sets that were explored, namely Aerodactyl and Crobat, the latter that I personally still play to this day. Togekiss wasn’t deemed banworthy then, but was still considered a huge threat, that many thought Rotom could hopefully handle. When Sinnoh came out, this is exactly what happened. Rotom was everywhere and remains everywhere today and is probably the best imaginable offensive check we could have hoped for. Togekiss’ usage used to be between 12% and 16% and now it is between 10% and 12% usage. Obviously, Togekiss remains a threat and is still viable, but certainly not to the same extent as before Sinnoh. I realise there is a lot of hate out there – from a lot of different people, so please don’t feel singled out when I say this - for checks and counters like Jolteon and Timid Milotic, but whether you like it or not, these mons were imo viable then and still now.

 

We also have Conkeldurr a huge threat that evolved as the game gave it new tools to exploit. It used to be the most dangerous OU mon. Reuniclus was thankfully there to stop it and Wobbuffet was around to handle it as well back then. Wobbuffet got banned, but Conkeldurr bulk up remained around as it was still struggling against Reuniclus and was suffering from 4mss. With Mach Punch, Drain Punch and Bulk up, it only had one move left for coverage, so whether it was Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Rock Slide, Stone Edge or Pay Back there was always coverage issues. I personally started to play defensive Medicham against Conkeldurr Bulk Up and it was stopping it reliably on top of providing interesting resistances to my team. I know people experimented a lot with Conkeldurr counters back then too with stuff like Golurk, Swalot and others. Evidently, the most popular options were the top tier mons like Salamence, Gliscor, Pelipper, Starmie, Tentacruel, Chandelure and Gengar, but were only checks depending on which set Conkeldurr was running. Then Conkeldurr got a massive buff thanks to Flame Orb and that meant dropping Bulk Up for Facade. That change was a problem for Reuniclus (and my Medicham xD) that was previously capable of countering Conkeldurr completely and now feared Façade 2HKO. However, when Flame Orb was introduced, Cofagrigus ability was also fixed and rose to OU instantly as a prime Conkeldurr counter. Many criticized Cofagrigus as useless outside of checking Conkeldurr, but realised rather quickly it had other uses, namely against Mienshao and Scizor, but also as a Toxic Spikes user and spin blocker. Rocky Helmet was also introduced and that meant that Conkeldurr that previously had great longevity thanks to Drain Punch, now had to face residual damage from everywhere. Hippowdon Rocky Helmet rose in popularity and became an excellent answer to Conkeldurr. Gliscor, Salamence and Reuniclus also gained access to Rocky Helmet which caused some problems for Conkeldurr. Today, Conkeldurr remains a huge threat and Cofagrigus is pretty much the same as it as always been, even though I lately saw some naughty Trick Room and/or Nasty Plot sets. Conkeldurr can still annoy Cofagrigus with very specific moves like Toxic or Bulk Up/Stone Edge, but as a pokemon that has always suffered from 4mss, I don’t think it is banworthy from defensive standpoint. As for offense, I don’t think anything changed either; if Conkeldurr doesn’t predict correctly, a free Gengar, Starmie, Tentacruel, Salamence, Gliscor, Pelipper or Chandelure can be quite problematic for it. It’s lack of speed means it will always rely on Mach Punch for a lot of threats and therefore Conkeldurr got a good amount of revenge killing options as well.

 

As for Hydreigon, it was imo always a difficult case. As a fan favorite mon with a great typing and versatility, it was a tiering nightmare as few were willing to look at it objectively imo. It was and remains a threat capable of pretty much anything when it comes to wallbreaking. However, depending on the set, it had some checks, some more solid than others. When it comes to the quite popular Taunt sets, Hydreigon require a large amount of prediction to break through things like Milotic Calm or Blissey. As a locked mon, it’s also a great revenge killer or wallbreaker, but I feel this can be true for so many other locked mon like Ttar, Togekiss, Darmanitan and others. Also, Hydreigon has 4 weaknesses and despite being decently fast and bulky, it is still vulnerable to revenge killing from mons like Conkeldurr, Volcarona, Focus Blast Gengar, Scizor (if locked), Salamence, Tyranitar, etc. Overall, if Hydreigon had access to Draco Meteor, perhaps I would think differently, but right now it’s somewhat manageable imo, both offensively and defensively.

 

When it comes to Wobbuffet, well there isn’t much to say. The pokemon is straightforward and so is its impact. Unlike Wynaut, with ridiculous stats that prevents it from enabling the potential of its Shadow Tag ability, Wobbuffet is a very serious threat for any playstyle. Locked mons, already pressured by the necessity to predict, are put in an impossible predicament when facing Wobbuffet and can even become a liability. This grants Wobbuffet the power of getting rid of key potential offensive threats without much effort or risk involved and quite uncompetitively. The combination of Encore + Tickle also allows Wobbuffet to dispose of several walls like Blissey, Tentacruel, Reuniclus and more with once again almost no risk involved. I don’t think there is much of discussion here since very few believe it shouldn’t get banned. The only discussion is what should be done about Wobbuffet in the event it is not allowed to get banned. However, I don’t really want to get into that since I don’t believe that specific discussion has anything to do with tiering in general.

 

Now, I want to talk about my favorite OU problem: Garchomp. This pokemon is a little bit like Hydreigon since it is also a fan favorite mon that few are willing to look at objectively. Imo, it fits offensive uber characteristics because unlike the threats I talked about previously (except Wobbuffet) there isn’t really any viable counter play to that pokemon. Garchomp is first of all fast; this means only 6 OU pokemon are faster: Dugtrio, Gengar, Starmie, Jolteon, Infernape and Mienshao. Garchomp is also extremely bulky with several resistances (namely rock) and only has 2 weaknesses: Ice x4 and Dragon x2. Garchomp also has a great offensive typing and stats which provides it an advantageous coverage backed up with power. In order to start what I hope could be a healthy discussion about Garchomp, I would like to reach some common ground. What I mean here is that I suspect Garchomp to fit offensive uber characteristics and therefore I will mainly focus on the Garchomp traits that reflect those characteristics. Don’t get me wrong, I know Garchomp can do more than just potentially wallbreak or sweep. I realise Garchomp can provide a lot of utility to a team by setting up rocks, by unexpectedly outspeeding threats with a Choice Scarf or taking some hits for the team with or without a Rocky Helmet. However, for the sake of focusing namely on what allows imo Garchomp to fit offensive uber characteristics, I will look mainly at one set, so keep in mind every counter play suggested against this set will not be risk free. The set I have in mind is this one:

 

Garchomp @ Yache Berry 

Ability: Sand Veil 

Level: 50 

EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe 

Jolly Nature 

- Dragon Claw 

- Earthquake 

- Fire Fang 

- Swords Dance

 

With that set, Garchomp is outsped under normal conditions by only 6 OU mons and none of them have an OHKO against Garchomp even with a Choice Spec or a Choice Band. I think this is very important because the lock risk that comes with using these items is not properly rewarded here. Garchomp also has OHKO possibilities against most of them. Ofc, since chip dmg seems to be a big factor when it comes to Garchomp, we should talk about it right away.

 

Choice Band Dugtrio needs at least 40% prior chip dmg inflicted to Garchomp in order to secure the KO.

Spoiler

252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 112-133 (60.8 - 72.2%)

Choice Specs Gengar needs at least 35.9% prior chip dmg inflicted to Garchomp in order to secure the KO.

Spoiler

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 118-140 (64.1 - 76%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 118-139 (64.1 - 75.5%)

 

Choice Specs Starmie needs at least 20.7% chip dmg inflicted to Garchomp in order to secure the KO.

Spoiler

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 146-174 (79.3 - 94.5%)

Choice Specs Jolteon needs at least 42.4% chip dmg inflicted to Garchomp in order to secure the KO.

Spoiler

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 106-126 (57.6 - 68.4%)

Infernape needs at least 25% chip dmg inflicted to Garchomp in order to secure the KO.

Spoiler

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 138-163 (75 - 88.5%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Infernape Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 102-120 (55.4 - 65.2%)

Choice Band Mienshao needs at least 8.2% chip dmg inflicted to chomp in order to secure the KO.

Spoiler

252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-199 (91.8 - 108.1%)

With all that said, I want to insist on the fact that most of these mons are not super viable as locked mons. For instance, Gengar is a highly vulnerable to Pursuit trapping from Ttar and Scizor and locking itself on Shadow Ball or HP Ice comes at a huge cost on top of the lock risk already mentioned. I also want to point out that the chip dmg against chomp is not something small like switch on Stealth Rocks or Rapid Spin, we are talking about 40% chip sometimes.

 

Since I just displayed what kind of chip dmg is required to KO Garchomp by faster mons, I think it is only fair I do the same with Chomp against these faster mons.

0% chip dmg required to secure the KO on Dugtrio

Spoiler

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 147-174 (133.6 - 158.1%)

23.8% chip dmg required to secure the KO on Gengar

Spoiler

252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 103-123 (76.2 - 91.1%)

26.7% chip dmg is required to secure the KO on Starmie.

Spoiler

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 99-117 (73.3 - 86.6%)

0% chip dmg required to secure the KO on Jolteon

Spoiler

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 258-306 (184.2 - 218.5%)

0% chip dmg required to secure the KO on Infernape

Spoiler

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 224-266 (148.3 - 176.1%)

7.9% chip dmg required to secure the KO on Mienshao

Spoiler

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 129-153 (92.1 - 109.2%)

As you can see, the chip dmg required by Garchomp to KO the faster threats is quite neglieable compared to the amount of chip dmg required by them to KO Garchomp. This is even more troubling when taking into account the fact that unlike them Garchomp doesn’t have to be locked to threathen them and that most of them are often played with Life Orb which will result in chipping themselves the little dmg required for Garchomp to KO them.

 

Priority moves can also be used in order to outspeed Garchomp. Here are some noteworthy ones and the chip dmg required to secure the KO on Garchomp:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 88-105 (47.8 - 57%)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 63-75 (34.2 - 40.7%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 80-95 (43.4 - 51.6%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 61-73 (33.1 - 39.6%)

252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 66-78 (35.8 - 42.3%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 116-140 (63 - 76%)

 

Sadly, none of those have OHKO possibilities and aside from Mamoswine that isn’t even OU by usage, all of them deal less than 50% dmg with their priority move. Thankfully, Conkeldurr, Cloyster and Mamoswine are not at risk of getting OHKO by Garchomp and can threathen Garchomp with better moves than their priority move. However, none of them have a resistance against one of Garchomp’s two stab, Dragon Claw or Eq and both Conkeldurr/Mamoswine are at risk depending on their ev spread of being OHKO after a SD from Garchomp or getting 2HKO by 2 stab moves. This means that as answers to Garchomp, if they are not used as healthy revenge killers, they will realistically be forced to use their priority move unsuccessfully against Garchomp.

 

We can also look at Choice Scarf Pokemon in the tier against Garchomp:

 

Cloyster:

Spoiler

252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 190-240 (103.2 - 130.4%)

Salamence:

Spoiler

252+ SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 248-294 (134.7 - 159.7%)

252+ Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 162-192 (88 - 104.3%)

Dragonite:

Spoiler

252+ SpA Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 234-276 (127.1 - 150%)

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 162-192 (88 - 104.3%)

Hydreigon:

Spoiler

252+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 180-212 (97.8 - 115.2%)

Out of those 4 scarf mons, Salamence and Dragonite are imo incredibly unviable as Choice Scarf users, especially Dragonite. And aside from Cloyster, all of them take a huge risk when switching into Garchomp. Other scarfers may be capable to dealing good damage to Garchomp, but nothing noteworthy imo or better than what Dugtrio/Gengar/Starmie/Jolteon/Infernape/Mienshao can do.

 

Kingdra can also threathen Garchomp under rain, but once again it requires support for this to be achieved. I also personally believe rain teams are highly unviable without trapping support and since Wobbuffet shouldn’t even be allowed in OU as far as I am concerned, I think it is appaling to incentize the usage of one Uber mon to stop another. I realise my opinion about rain team might not be shared by many, so if you don’t agree, that’s completely fine and take what I just said with a grain of salt.

 

With all that being said, I believe offensive checks to Garchomp are very limited, risky for some and and often require prior chip dmg support to work. Garchomp is a huge threat for offense as a playstyle, but since Garchomp fits also imo offensive uber characterisitics, it’s also a huge asset for offensive teams. I think some people might get confused because of that. Offense is more viable than before and I think many would agree. However, if you play Offense without Garchomp, offense as a playstyle is not really more viable than before and I would argue that offense players are somewhat forced to run Garchomp because the ressources to deal with it offensively are subpar at best.

 

For this reason, offensive teams often need to slow down and incorporate mons they would normally avoid or rarely consider since it makes them lose momentum and momentum is the most important gameplay aspect of any offensive team. Bulky Rotom Wil-O-Wisp can be considered for instance. However, if Garchomp stays against Rotom, Rotom will take a lot of dmg and depending on the ev spread, Rotom may still be in KO range after Garchomp gets burned. Garchomp is also free to switch out after getting burned and through Heal Bell or Healing Wish support can get rid of the burn status. There is also an important miss factor to take into consideration when relying on Wil-O-Wisp to deal with Garchomp and that’s not ideal at all. Don’t get me wrong Bulky Rotom is still a great answer to the Garchomp set I want to focus on, but if it’s another Garchomp set involving Substitute or Lum Berry, Rotom is screwed.

 

Since I already discussed some of the biggest threats in our metagame, I will compare some of them to Garchomp. Conkeldurr is extremely difficult to counter, but fortunately suffers from 4mss, gets chipped much more easily than Garchomp and can be offensively checked. When mons like Gengar, Chandelure or Starmie get switched into Conkeldurr on the right predicted move, they have the ability to then pose a great threat to Conkeldurr. Is there anything that can really switch in free on a predicted Dragon Claw against Garchomp? Not much and that is a problem. There is a risk free aspect to chomp as an offensive threat and that isn’t the case for Conkeldurr. Togekiss also has some offensive checks, mostly Rotom, Dnite and Jolteon. You are not forced to run Ttar scarf or Magnezone scarf to offensively check Togekiss, there are other options too. Garchomp got none of those options, no free offensive check on Dragon Claw unlike the several offensive checks to Air Slash Togekiss.

 

As for defensive playstyle against the Garchomp set I want to focus on, there are fewer options. Thanks to Yache Berry, Milotic or Porygon2 can’t OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam, but they get 2HKO after a SD. These are therefore not good against this Garchomp set.

 

Umbeon and Mandibuzz are now being played more and more in OU to stop Garchomp with stab Foul Play. Unfortunetly, Foul Play is not a guaranteed KO against +2 Garchomp:

Quote

+2 252 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-201 (91.8 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Since chip dmg is realistically much more difficult to inflict when playing a stall team, a 56.3% chance to OHKO is much more problematic considering Garchomp can 2HKO these mons after a SD. Rocky Helmet Mandibuzz can help out in that matter tho. It’s also important to realise that both Umbreon and Mandibuzz are not even OU by usage and their viability is very questionable, almost to the same extent as using Hitmontop to stop Tyranitar in Gen 3 OU.

 

We can also look at Skarmory since it resists to both Dragon Claw and Earthquake from Garchomp. However, Skarmory can’t do much against Garchomp beside Counter or Whirlwind which only leads to 50/50 plays. And this is a huge problem. For instance, if Garchomp does SD on a Skarmory that switches in and then if Skarmory fails the 50/50, it is as good as dead. If Skarmory does Whirlwind and Garchomp does Fire Fang, this is what happens:

Quote

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 86-102 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Garchomp does another SD and Skarmory does Counter, the next two turns will be the end of Skarmory:

Quote

+4 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 59-69 (34.3 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This represents 69 HP maximum dealt to Skarmory so it will do twice to Garchomp through Counter, so 138 HP max dmg. Since Garchomp has a total of 184 HP, this isn’t close to handling Garchomp.

Skarmory is afterwards in KO range:

Quote

+4 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 128-152 (74.4 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see Garchomp is not countered by Skarmory at all here and the worse part is that if this was a mixed Garchomp with Fire Blast, the situation would be even more difficult for Skarmory.

 

Then we have Cofagrigus. It’s significantly more bulky than a Bulky Rotom, but the same it still lacks the necessary recovery to deal with Garchomp long term and takes an enormous risk when attempting to do wow since it could miss or Garchomp could have another set. Anyhow, Cofagrigus can on paper stop this specific Garchomp set, but imo that is an underwhelwing answer because it resists neither of Garchomp’s stabs.

 

Overall, I believe Wobbuffet fits Supportive Uber Characteristics and Garchomp fits Offensive Uber Characteristics. Both should be banned.

Edited by gbwead

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6 hours ago, gbwead said:

 

 

When it comes to Wobbuffet, well there isn’t much to say. The pokemon is straightforward and so is its impact. Unlike Wynaut, with ridiculous stats that prevents it from enabling the potential of its Shadow Tag ability, Wobbuffet is a very serious threat for any playstyle. Locked mons, already pressured by the necessity to predict, are put in an impossible predicament when facing Wobbuffet and can even become a liability. This allows Wobbuffet the power of getting rid of key potential offensive threats without much effort or risk involved and uncompetitively. The combination of Encore + Tickle also allows Wobbuffet to dispose of several walls like Blissey, Tentacruel, Reuniclus and several more with once again almost no risk involved. I don’t think there is much of discussion here since very few believe it shouldn’t get banned. The only discussion is what should be done about Wobbuffet in the event it is not allowed to get banned. However, I don’t really want to get into that since I don’t believe that specific discussion has anything to do with tiering in general.

 

 

 

Overall, I believe Wobbuffet fits Supportive Ub Shed Shell er Characteristics and Garchomp fits Offensive Uber Characteristics. Both should be banned.

 

Shed Shell >>>>>>> wobbbufet noob

 

 

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does conk have close combat right now? If so, any take on viability? 

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Posted (edited)

 

On 8/6/2020 at 5:10 PM, jfk said:

does conk have close combat right now? If so, any take on viability? 

Inferior move to drain punch.

Edited by gitargy

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6 hours ago, Huargensy said:

closet combat

I'm sorry but you killed me right there xD

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