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Munya

OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

@fredrichnietze

Hydreigon doesn't have access to Draco Meteor. It's not a ban.

That's true, but this isn't the point of Fred's post (I guess I know him for long enough to learn to read between the lines around his posts). The point is that Fred (and me) doesn't think that this move should be taken away from Hydrei as it won't be gamebreaking.

On 6/10/2018 at 10:07 PM, Senile said:

Additionally, if we do remove it, Draco Meteor can be added to Hydreigons movepool at a later point, if we think it won't be problematic.

 

I think it's high time we give Hydrei the chance to actually shine, it has currently around 21% usage which is fair, and I do not think Draco Meteor will push it over the limit. It already has a nasty 4mss and will be constantly walled by some certain pokes.

 

If you think we should move to "Hydreigon & Draco Meteor" thread, we can do that

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2 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

it does not have access to the move because the TC. dont give me that shit

that's where you are wrong

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Just now, gbwead said:

that's where you are wrong

we all know if you actually agreed and decided "hey we should change this" and then complained to staff they would change it. 

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1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

fair

but yeah, I don't think it was because of the TC that DM is banned, moreso because the devs have to spend time on more important things, such as new vanities and hats

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32 minutes ago, Suneet said:

but yeah, I don't think it was because of the TC that DM is banned, moreso because the devs have to spend time on more important things, such as new vanities and hats

i hear ya but 

"Due to the shift in Tiering Policy to avoid banning pokemon to Uber, and instead make ingame changes or tweaks, a proposition has been made to simply remove Draco Meteor from it's movepool before it is added, similar to the preemptive Outrage nerf. Although we strongly believe this will ensure that Hydreigon won't be banworthy anytime soon,  we would still like community feedback on whether this measure would be necessary or preferred. Part of the reason Draco Meteor is specifically being chosen for omission is because it has not been added to the game yet, and so removing it from Hydreigon's movepool would be least disruptive way to alter Hydreigon. Additionally, if we do remove it, Draco Meteor can be added to Hydreigons movepool at a later point, if we think it won't be problematic."

 

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The draco meteor ban is necessary to keep hydreigon in ou, if it had access you eliminate the offensive pokemon that can switch into it.  We dont have steel legendary mons in our meta game which is what i assume kept it in check in gen 5 ou. Right now if you want to play offensively you have the option to switch in tyranitar/scizor and both of these just get annihilated by a specs draco. We are probably at that point forced to only have blissey/chansey as counter-play to it and then it always has the option of running a fighting move to deal with these. If Hydreigon learns draco it would be banned for offensive uber within 1 month. Just because it had access in other meta games doesn't mean it should in ours. I was also under the assumption that devs thought draco would be to strong in pvm which is probably what gbwead is referring to when he says its not entirely up to the tc. 

Edited by Evlgoon

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11 hours ago, Evlgoon said:

The draco meteor ban is necessary to keep hydreigon in ou, if it had access you eliminate the offensive pokemon that can switch into it.  We dont have steel legendary mons in our meta game which is what i assume kept it in check in gen 5 ou. Right now if you want to play offensively you have the option to switch in tyranitar/scizor and both of these just get annihilated by a specs draco. We are probably at that point forced to only have blissey/chansey as counter-play to it and then it always has the option of running a fighting move to deal with these. If Hydreigon learns draco it would be banned for offensive uber within 1 month. Just because it had access in other meta games doesn't mean it should in ours. I was also under the assumption that devs thought draco would be to strong in pvm which is probably what gbwead is referring to when he says its not entirely up to the tc. 

IGBhj9m.gif

8 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

U have convinced me

i knew you were one of the good ones

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10 hours ago, fredrichnietze said:

we all know if you actually agreed and decided "hey we should change this" and then complained to staff they would change it. 

Pretty sure most of the TC didn't want to be removed from the movepool and would have rather banned the pokemon, if you wish to blame anybody, I'm right here.

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4 hours ago, Munya said:

Pretty sure most of the TC didn't want to be removed from the movepool and would have rather banned the pokemon, if you wish to blame anybody, I'm right here.

ok are you going to fix this? 

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No, if we can prevent hydreigon from potentially going on the banlist by denying it one move that isn't even necessary for it to be a good pick, we will be keeping things the way they are.

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4 hours ago, Munya said:

No, if we can prevent hydreigon from potentially going on the banlist by denying it one move that isn't even necessary for it to be a good pick, we will be keeping things the way they are.

this is not how tier should work. 

 

also i guess we're just ignoring the possibility of it not being ban worthy? also didnt you guys give out draco on some gift hydreigons? are we pretending those dont exist? also also for all of time in every tier thread people will point to this and say "why cant we complex ban?"

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1 minute ago, fredrichnietze said:

this is not how tier should work. 

 

also i guess we're just ignoring the possibility of it not being ban worthy? also didnt you guys give out draco on some gift hydreigons? are we pretending those dont exist? also also for all of time in every tier thread people will point to this and say "why cant we complex ban?"

Its not tiering since its a development decision.  We aren't ignoring the possibility of it not being banned, but we aren't ignoring the very real possibility it could end up banned either which something we would rather not happen. 

The hydreigon with draco meteor on them had draco meteor removed, none exist in game anymore.

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4 hours ago, Munya said:

Its not tiering since its a development decision.

>_> "if we make a "development decision" based on tier'ing reasons it's not tier'ing because we call it something else and have fancy hats. " 

 

i guess we're back to this is not how tiering should work. 

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On 10/31/2018 at 1:16 AM, Munya said:

Its not tiering since its a development decision.  We aren't ignoring the possibility of it not being banned, but we aren't ignoring the very real possibility it could end up banned either which something we would rather not happen. 

The hydreigon with draco meteor on them had draco meteor removed, none exist in game anymore.

If you ever decided to change it to where hydra had draco and it turns out to be a huge mistake... would you delete draco from all of the comps that were made in the time it was allowed?

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And thats where things get complicated, I wouldn't be able to say honestly.  We do not like to remove things from a large portion of the playerbase if we can help it.

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11 hours ago, Munya said:

And thats where things get complicated, I wouldn't be able to say honestly.  We do not like to remove things from a large portion of the playerbase if we can help it.

I understand, but i feel like that would be the only way to truly test something thats not obviously broken while maintaining the we dont want broken things to be implemented thing. I, of course, like the direction you guys are going with this btw. There is no point in implementing stuff that would disallow a mon from being used in comp imo. Maybe for the story line but from what i understand the devs want to make a lot of the storyline quasi-comp anyway.

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I think we should probably get rid of Dugtrio as soon as possible from OU. This one mon is just disgustingly easy to abuse- it's the most broken revenge killer, maybe aside from Mega Gengar which fortunately we do not have here. Amount of pokes it invalidates and disables and skill-less playstyle it promotes (same for togekiss hehe) is just stupid. Not only can it be played as a revenge killer, with just a little bit of prediction (and help of u-turn and volt switch) it can easily dispose of many pokes in the entire metagame, centralizing everything around it.

Let's not forget, Dugtrio doesn't trap things only with it's CB set- it can abuse Reversal with Liechi to trap and bring down almost anything the tier has to offer.

 

As when it comes to Wobbu, I haven't given it a test myself yet (Julian gib back my wabba). I might get back on it's topic once I'll get some games and test it out.

Edited by RysPicz
I embarris.

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9 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I think we should probably get rid of Dugtrio as soon as possible from OU. This one mon is just disgustingly easy to abuse- it's the most broken revenge killer, maybe aside from Mega Gengar which fortunately we do not have here. Amount of pokes it invalidates and disables and skill-less playstyle it promotes (same for togekiss hehe) is just stupid. Not only can it be played as a revenge killer, with just a little bit of prediction (and help of u-turn and volt switch) it can easily dispose of many pokes in the entire metagame, centralizing everything around it.

Let's not forget, Dugtrio doesn't trap things only with it's CB set- it can abuse Reversal with Liechi to trap and bring down almost anything the tier has to offer.

 

As when it comes to Wobbu, I haven't given it a test myself yet (Julian gib back my wabba). I might get back on it's topic once I'll get some games and test it out.

i have a wobbu you can borrow 

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Don't know if this is the right place to ask but, I havent seen Lanturn on the tierlists whatsoever, the list updates I've found only ofcourse. 

Was wondering why he wouldn't be on there even as a C tier poke. Or if its in untiered or someting. Has a strong ability and works well in rain teams and 'can' cripple some stuff thats slower or tankable with either Twave or toxic. 

there's a better thread to post this isn't there? (sorry if too far off topic)

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