Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Munya

OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

Recommended Posts

Just a cc bruh.

Edited by xStarr
I understand this rule may cause other problems.

Share this post


Link to post
50 minutes ago, Aard said:

I wonder if it matches people with similar rating because that's just an inferior set damage wise and gets less kos.  It would be like giving your poke 200 attack evs then leaving the rest blank.  Exactly what with thunder punch kills skarmory besides conkeldurr?  That sounds made up.  Maybe a few things kill gyarados with it but not much on the physical side is koing skarmory.  

 

I'd rather go by a place that dedicated years to a similar tier and has really smart people writing content  than use anecdotal evidence of what biased people say they saw in a few pvp games in a two-week-old meta.

So, I'm gonna go ahead and beat a dead horse, because it seems really obvious that these Gen 5-based arguments regarding the Sheer Force LO Set vs. Guts FO are comically out of place, even aside from the reasons people have mentioned.

 

So, first of all, yes, as everyone has already said, there are tons of pokemon in Gen 5 that we don't have in PokeMMO that contribute to LO SF being better. However, more specifically, it isn't just the greater amount of things that can switch in on Conkel and handle it defensively that matter, but the diversity of such things, and how much harder the average Gen 5 threat hits. The lost coverage the Bulk Up set has and the fact that it relies much more on setting up is a lot worse in Gen 5's meta, where things hit insanely hard, with everything outspeeding you. In that environment, Conkel really needs to make the turns it comes in count, so it's obvious the more immediately impactful set with better coverage is better.

 

With that being said, there's 2 other significant differences between PokeMMO and 5th gen. First of all, in gen 5, Burn does full 12.5% chip instead of 6.25%, making the drawback of being burnt significantly larger than it is in PokeMMO. Taking literally double the chip damage, especially on a set that can't run leftovers and is outsped by basically everything, is a pretty big deal. Not only that, but Gen 5 relied exclusively on Rapid Spin for hazard removal, as new Defog mechanics weren't until Gen 6, making hazard stacking a powerful tactic. Sure, Conkel resists SR, but in a metagame where spikestacking was deadly and common, Conkel got massively chipped out. Then throw in the popularity of sand teams and perma-sand frequently chipping Conkel down even further limiting it's usage, giving the Guts set heavy anti-synergy with most Sand based teams.

 

So, Conkel was stuck in a meta where most threats hit way harder than they do in PokeMMO while still being outsped by basically everything, and where it takes massive chip damage constantly. Since it's so slow it has to rely on bulk to survive, it's no surprise that the Flame Orb set, which exacerbates the massive weakness to chip damage it has while also wanting a turn of setup it can't afford to get, was less popular than the Sheer Force set. It really couldn't afford to stick around too long, it needed to come in and provide immediate impact on the game, because it simply takes too much damage from too many sources constantly, and you can't rely just on Drain Punch; You're gonna have to use your coverage moves, or you'll just get walled, chipped out, and die without doing anything.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Aard said:

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 185-218 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, funny how this stuff ties together.  A perfect example of why the guts flame orb set is inferior.

It is easy to orient the calcs in one direction or another.

 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 140-166 (96.5 - 114.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Flame Orb Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 158-188 (108.9 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, Senile said:

So, Conkel was stuck in a meta where most threats hit way harder than they do in PokeMMO while still being outsped by basically everything, and where it takes massive chip damage constantly. Since it's so slow it has to rely on bulk to survive, it's no surprise that the Flame Orb set, which exacerbates the massive weakness to chip damage it has while also wanting a turn of setup it can't afford to get, was less popular than the Sheer Force set. It really couldn't afford to stick around too long, it needed to come in and provide immediate impact on the game, because it simply takes too much damage from too many sources constantly, and you can't rely just on Drain Punch; You're gonna have to use your coverage moves, or you'll just get walled, chipped out, and die without doing anything.

Those are all good points.  I might be underestimating the 10% life orb recoil to 6.25% burn.  Still, the reason I think sheer force is better is when I run calcs on coverage moves versus checks the 1.69x sheer force life orb multiplier matters a lot more than when I compared 1.5x guts calc with drain punch versus 1.3x life orb calcs.  If I had specific instances of "Only guts conkeldurr 1hkos magnezone"  or something like that it would be much more inclined to believe guts is the better set.  I also don't think flame orb and sheer force existing for only two weeks is an adequate sample size to see which actually wins out in competitive play.

 

 

Oh, someone posted the magnezone calc while a was posting it.  The 25% chance goes away after rocks so that's less substantial but there might be something else.  Anyway, I'll talk more in the conk thread if I find any calcs.

Edited by Aard

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Sashaolin said:

It is easy to orient the calcs in one direction or another.

 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 140-166 (96.5 - 114.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Flame Orb Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 158-188 (108.9 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

sheer force life orb bulk up?

Share this post


Link to post

I would like to discuss the return of dugtrio and ask if you guys think it would fit this meta we already have a lot of priority and bulk with eviolate etc.

Share this post


Link to post
28 minutes ago, Takens said:

I would like to discuss the return of dugtrio and ask if you guys think it would fit this meta we already have a lot of priority and bulk with eviolate etc.

We're waiting for team preview before we test Dugtrio again.

Share this post


Link to post

Bringing the machamp subject to this thread...

 

DSvWqQw.jpg

 

What about Hariyama? I guess it can do about the same, but with a bit less speed / atk and more bulk.

Share this post


Link to post

 drizzle + swift swim, sand stream + sand rush

  they were already discussed?

 

i think smogon have banned this combos.

kingdra, kabutops and excadrill aren't suppossed to be counters for weathers teams instead of abusing these?

 

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, foyone said:

 drizzle + swift swim, sand stream + sand rush

  they were already discussed?

 

i think smogon have banned this combos.

kingdra, kabutops and excadrill aren't suppossed to be counters for weathers teams instead of abusing these?

 

our weathers aren't permanent, therefor it's somewhat controlable. 

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, razimove said:

our weathers aren't permanent, therefor it's somewhat controlable. 

thats true, but the lack of rayquaza too.

And 5-8 turns of weather is more than enough to make a comeback without any effort just by sacrifice pelipper/hippodown and bring  kabutops or excadril. Two mons that outspeed the entire metagame in weather and hit hard with good coverage beign cappable of sweep most part of the tier. kingdra same without chansey/blissey

 

what about offensive teams against rain or sand? totally unplayable.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, foyone said:

thats true, but the lack of rayquaza too.

And 5-8 turns of weather is more than enough to make a comeback without any effort just by sacrifice pelipper/hippodown and bring  kabutops or excadril. Two mons that outspeed the entire metagame in weather and hit hard with good coverage beign cappable of sweep most part of the tier. kingdra same without chansey/blissey

 

what about offensive teams against rain or sand? totally unplayable.

 

 

I've noticed most offensive teams carry strong priority against these types of teams to heavily limit their sweeping potential.

Conk, Breloom and Lucario's priority fighting moves really put a hurt on Kabutops/Excadrill pretty much taking them out of the game. Kingdra is a bit of a problem for offensive teams though.

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, suigin said:

I've noticed most offensive teams carry strong priority against these types of teams to heavily limit their sweeping potential.

Conk, Breloom and Lucario's priority fighting moves really put a hurt on Kabutops/Excadrill pretty much taking them out of the game. Kingdra is a bit of a problem for offensive teams though.

so if the other player sacrifice pelipper/hippo on a non threat for kabutops/excadril you need to sacrifice 1 mon for the potential sword dance then bring a fight priority move just to gain a switch out from kabutops or excadril...

why nobody uses sandstorm+excadril or rain dance+kabutops? because isn't broken like drizzle and sandstream and need to find a turn to set it.

why smogon banned that combos even with rayquaza in the tier? 

 

i didn't saw recent usage stats. but how much teams with kabutops or kingdra dont run pelipper? how much teams with excadril dont run tyranitar or hippodown and viceversa?

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, foyone said:

so if the other player sacrifice pelipper/hippo on a non threat for kabutops/excadril you need to sacrifice 1 mon for the potential sword dance then bring a fight priority move just to gain a switch out from kabutops or excadril...

why nobody uses sandstorm+excadril or rain dance+kabutops? because isn't broken like drizzle and sandstream and need to find a turn to set it.

why smogon banned that combos even with rayquaza in the tier? 

 

i didn't saw recent usage stats. but how much teams with kabutops or kingdra dont run pelipper? how much teams with excadril dont run tyranitar or hippodown and viceversa?

 

Rayquaza was never below Ubers in any Smogon generation.

I've seen plenty of teams with Kingdra and Excadrill outside of rain and sand respectively but Kabutops is usually a rain exclusive, even then usage does not reflect how broken a thing is.

 

Share this post


Link to post

Tyranitar and and hippo  rreally strong pokemons, that u usually ll run on overused without running a sandstorm team based, just because they r good, and both(tyranitar better, cause he can easy match with pelipper) r good counters for rain teams. U can just run ferrothorn and kill every water sweeper so easily making them cry.

 

In Other hand, sandstorm teams sucks, there is only 1 sand rush playable poke, and isnt so hard to kill, just play some hippo/swampert/gliscor/etc and earthquake him(U can mach punch Conk him and OHKO, or any kind of priority move, there r a lot)

 

There is 0 problems with weather teams, some teams can suffer against rain if isnt ready for that, but thats more about team making than a true meta problem.

 

Excadrill is a good lategame wincondition if played properly, but there r a lot of mons who can do the same and they arent op for that reason.

 

And, at the end of the day, if u see a Pelipper, u ll see 90% of the time, Kingdra, Kabutops or ludicolo as partners, thats a good advantage on a non-teampreview meta bro, u can expect what is ur opponent doing and play around it.

 

Sorry for my english, isnt my mother lenguague.

Edited by PeterParquet

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, suigin said:

Rayquaza was never below Ubers in any Smogon generation.

I've seen plenty of teams with Kingdra and Excadrill outside of rain and sand respectively but Kabutops is usually a rain exclusive, even then usage does not reflect how broken a thing is.

 

silly suidin clearly hes struggling with pve rain/sand on npcs and cant use his rayquaza he doesnt have to free switch in and crush his opponents. #brokengame

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, suigin said:

Rayquaza was never below Ubers in any Smogon generation.

I've seen plenty of teams with Kingdra and Excadrill outside of rain and sand respectively but Kabutops is usually a rain exclusive, even then usage does not reflect how broken a thing is.

 

is rare to see excadril outside on sand tbh. I think it will be less than %5 of teams running excadril without ttar/hipp.

kingdra could be because auto support with rain dance, or the sniper set, but still need 1 turn to set.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, fredrichnietze said:

silly suidin clearly hes struggling with pve rain/sand on npcs and cant use his rayquaza he doesnt have to free switch in and crush his opponents. #brokengame

i dont talk with youtubers, sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, suigin said:

Rayquaza was never below Ubers in any Smogon generation.

wasn't rayquaza actually banned from ubers in every gen? 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.