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Munya

OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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20 hours ago, gbwead said:

If Cofagrigus doesn't counter Mienshao, what could possibly counter it asided from Gliscor assuming no Hp Ice?

If you can't wall it outspeed it - @KaynineXL 2k17

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35 minutes ago, Aerun said:
https://i.gyazo.com/b4a937d7d5392107f9e93f817821c293.png

Yeah, if you know chandelure is choice locked you can revenge kill it 100% of the time with scizor pursuit if it is locked into a desirable move.  No prediction needed.

 

This is a kind of funny example of how good memory does not equal good understanding.  You guys remember forum posts from a year ago but don't take the effort to think about if it was true or not because you immediately dismissed it after saying "Fire, bug/steel, fire win!".

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 127-150 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 236-278 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

 

Calcs back me up pretty clearly, don't know what to say.  Maybe you forgot ghost is resisted by steel when you ran the calc?  Don't really remember the conversation.

Edited by Aard

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and about the conkeldurr thing:

If you ban conkeldurr, hydreigon is going to be too strong. same goes for excadrill and chansey/blissey. You can run evolite dusclops vs conkeldurr too. Weezing is also nice (without facade on conkeldurr).

slowbro can work: 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (prediction, speed of both, life of conkeldurr)

wynaut with counter destroys conkeldurr if it doesnt got facade. (depends on the set)

reuniclus works (without facade)

gligar evolite (without ice punch on conkeldurr)

salamence ,dragonite (without ice punch)

skarmory deals a lot of dmg with brave bird. (depends on the speed of both and the life of conkeldurr,prediction)

gliscor if you run acrobatics (takes everything except ice punch)

cofagrigus and dusclops are the best safe counter

if you predict thunderpunch,icepunch,facade or bulk up even scizor can kill it with acrobatics

if you predict the fight attack even gengar can kill it.

 

you guys write all the time the perfect set and prediction against several pokemon. then volcarona also has to get uber, cause the only real counter is chansey/blissey and rocks.reuniclus also has to be uber. with the perfect set  (vs your pokemons) and prediction your pokemon got no chance.conkeldurr is strong, but not too strong. if you ban all the offensive pokemon, cause little kids dunno how  to play around resis and predict bad, we get to the same walling meta like gen3.dont you think we have too much walling atm?

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47 minutes ago, MosesBrenner said:

then volcarona also has to get uber, cause the only real counter is chansey/blissey and rocks.

gyarados also checks volcarona, and she struggles vs priority moves, like cband dnite espeed which deals about 70% to her give or take, aqua jet tops etc, not in the same ballpark. Also, she can't win vs toxic/seismic stall chansey nor does she do well vs mantine.

 

 

47 minutes ago, MosesBrenner said:

reuniclus also has to be uber. with the perfect set

So Reuniclus, unable to kill mantine nor milotic with haze, struggle vs scizor uturns, and won't wall volcarona well or the likes either.

Meanwhile there's conkel, tanky, able to deal with any monster in the tier, switching in is always a 50/50 when you're not aware of his set, and you're almost forced into running a team dedicated to conkel.

Edited by razimove

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gyarados isnt a safe check. volcarona can run hp electro. dragonite is down vs hp ice. vs azumarill she immediately use an attack azumarill down. Reuniclus can run thunder (in rain team for example) or hits all thunder 70%.like i said you guys all expect the perfect set, moves and predictions vs several pokemon.

your also forced to play around chansey/blissey, volcarona,reuniclus.

 

Edited by MosesBrenner

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19 minutes ago, razimove said:

Meanwhile there's conkel, tanky, able to deal with any monster in the tier, switching in is always a 50/50 when you're not aware of his set, and you're almost forced into running a team dedicated to conkel.

That's a key difference in thought.  Prediction based 50/50's are what make pokemon battles interesting.  The only time they should be eliminated from play is when they last more than 1 turn in a row.  An example of a bad 50/50 is aegislash king's shield, its a 50/50 if it uses it, then another 50/50 on the switch turn after giving aegislash over 50% odds.  An example of a good 50/50 is deciding whether to switch to starmie or gliscor when facing conk with a fighting weak mon.  Its not even really a 50/50 sometimes as it becomes a 1/3 chance if the fighting weak mon can damage when conk uses a non-fighting move.  Another bad example of a 50/50 is trying to beat down a chansey with a chandelure and hoping it doesn't switch when you calm mind.  Eliminating all 50/50's would make the game very dull as perfect stall shows. 

 

 

50/50's are only bad when dragged over consecutive turns.

Edited by Aard

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3 hours ago, pachima said:

Conkeldurr has 13 effective checks and some other more shaky ones. If the other 5 members of your team allow you to counter every single one of those 13 checks all the time, either you are a genius or your opponent is an idiot.

Thirteen shades of checks, almost like a movie title.

 

3 hours ago, pachima said:

First, I realize people are just assuming 100% they can counter whatever pokemon comes in front of conkeldurr all the time, so conkeldurr can come in over and over again. This is far from the truth, there are at least 13 great checks (IN OU), some other shaky checks, and even other checks under lower tiers. You can´t just assume you can counter every single one of those Pokemons every time because that won´t happen too often. Most likely, one of them (or several even) may find his way through the opponent team and make it unable to switch in anymore, and therefore making Conk lose its ability to come in over and over again.

Well you should namedrop them all, because I don't believe there are more than 5 or 6.

 

3 hours ago, pachima said:

Second, the sole assumption people make of countering everything everywhere proves how stale this game has become. People don´t think anymore, they only care about countering countering countering.

Well you may prefer a different game style, a kind of offensive play, weather teams, or other strats, etc.

But it's not up to you to judge other peoples gameplay, trying to come up with a balanced team that checks most of the main threats makes sense. Unless u a cool yolo kid

 

Anyhow, you should namedrop those 13 checks, cuz maybe Conkeldurr is actually easy to counter and we just haven't figured out how yet.

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12 minutes ago, Lazaaro said:

Anyhow, you should namedrop those 13 checks, cuz maybe Conkeldurr is actually easy to counter and we just haven't figured out how yet.

He referenced Bold Metagross in a previous post so be prepared

Edited by Zymogen

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4 hours ago, pachima said:

Conkeldurr has 13 effective checks and some other more shaky ones. If the other 5 members of your team allow you to counter every single one of those 13 checks all the time, either you are a genius

challenge accepted

gengar, milotic, blissey

 

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checks are based on prediction and then he has to switch out and counter means you can go in and he "has" to switch out (without taking much dmg)

if you watch at the ou tier there are a view pokemon that are in the same position than conkeldurr. There are just a view "real" counter.

volcaronas "real" counter is chansey/blissey. in every scenario you have to switch out. when you use boost you cannot kill it and if you attack while chansey got switched in, you can still not kill it. All other "named" counters are checks and based on prediction skills and hope the enemy doesnt run several moves.

if you watch at reuniclus it's even harder.

calm mind set is countered by haze milotic and mantine for example. but the problem with reuniclus is, you dont know which set he is running. if he is a trick room user with thunder or energy ball you lose as milotic or mantine. then trick room is only "countered (real counter)" by chansey/blissey. the other named pokemon like heracross, scizor,... are checks and it depends on prediction and reuniclus movepool. so taking a closer look: its hard to play against reuniclus without taking hard dmg.

now conkeldurr:

i would say cofagrigus and dusclops are "real"counter and its better for conkeldurr to switch out. and there are a lot of checks. again based on your predicion skill level and the movepool of conkeldurr.

Kingdra in rain:

specs kingdra kills ferrothorn in rain with hydro pump (high chance) and phys kingdra with dd kills chansey/blissey. mantine got destroyed with hp electric.high chance that Milotic dies to draco meteor with specs. hard to tell here a "real" counter, but the best option for checks  in my oppinion are ferrothorn,chansey/blissey or mantine. After taking dmg you can prepare for checks. But there is a high risk for taking tons of dmg.

hydreigon:

"real" counter? the best option in my oppinion is again chansey/blissey (hard to tell here cause of the work up and superpower thing, but i would also say its more a check than a "real" counter ). the other pokemon "named" as counter are checks based on hydreigons movepool and prediction.

chansey/blissey:

there are rarely seen special pokemon who can beat that thing. cause of special bulk and even phys bulk you are "forced" to counter it.

 

 there are a lot more monster out there who are very scary if they once set up DD, SD, calm mind,shell smash

 

if you now compare conkeldurr to all those pokemon. i think its more than fair to say he is in the same spot than the other pokemon.Super Strong, but not too strong!

 

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27 minutes ago, MosesBrenner said:

hydreigon:

"real" counter? the best option in my oppinion is again chansey/blissey (hard to tell here cause of the work up and superpower thing, but i would also say its more a check than a "real" counter ). the other pokemon "named" as counter are checks based on hydreigons movepool and prediction.

pory2 walls him really well, even superpower variants.

 

27 minutes ago, MosesBrenner said:

chansey/blissey:

there are rarely seen special pokemon who can beat that thing. cause of special bulk and even phys bulk you are "forced" to counter it.

Gengar/chandelure can beat, taunt gengar/CM chandelure easily jump in. Togekiss can also beat them more or less, idk what to say really about it hax to win I guess. And then you have special pivots like magnezone and jolteon, that can force blissey to show up, and allow you to setup other mons. Oh, special lucario can beat them aswell.

Ofc setup makes a monster strong, some like excadrill or lucario, are along the best wallbreakers, but the thing is, how easily can conkel be a problem even without setting up imo.

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I'm sick of seeing "if you guys ban X, then Y will be too strong." We're here to discuss if conk is too strong in THIS meta, which exists right now and we can observe it. Speculating about what the future might hold if something is banned is, well, speculative and unreliable. Does not matter for tiering 

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yeah i thought about special lucario. i dunno if togekiss serence grace is supporting flinch in mmo..!?!. if hydreigon runs charge beam and get the +1 porygon has to switch or hope focus blast doesnt hit. Even the combination of charge beam---->(porygon comes in) +1 SpA---->dark pulse---> draco meteor kills it. There are counters and checks for chansey but you are "forced" to deal with it. if you just prepare for normal special walls there is a high chance you lose.  Taunt Gengar can beat eviolite chansey , but i think blissey can beat gengar with flamethrower/psychic. i think conkeldurr is like every named pokemon above your comment. once shown they terrify you. be smart predict the move or run dusclops/ cofagrigus.

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18 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I'm sick of seeing "if you guys ban X, then Y will be too strong." We're here to discuss if conk is too strong in THIS meta, which exists right now and we can observe it. Speculating about what the future might hold if something is banned is, well, speculative and unreliable. Does not matter for tiering  

Its not.  And I'm discussing it because some people specifically want to ban it to make their dull playstyle stronger.  We got to the meat of it with "50/50's predictions are bad" so it was a helpful discussion.  Also, I thought that this was a general discussion for ou, not just for conk.  I think chansey should be banned immediately independent of what's done to conk. 

Edited by Aard

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and to answer gunthugs answer. by watching at several dmg calculations you see if it is too strong or not. Short answer: conkeldurr is strong but not too strong !"

Edited by MosesBrenner

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5 hours ago, Aard said:

Its not.  And I'm discussing it because some people specifically want to ban it to make their dull playstyle stronger.  We got to the meat of it with "50/50's predictions are bad" so it was a helpful discussion.  Also, I thought that this was a general discussion for ou, not just for conk.  I think chansey should be banned immediately independent of what's done to conk. 

 read this. 

also why do you think chansey should be banned? 

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Couldn’t we just ban elemental punches on conk, like we did with Draco on hydre? I think that’s what causes the most problematic issues for the checks right now. 

 

Some calcs could be ran without the punches, for stone edge to probably replace them. 

 

Idk if this could be a solution to keeping Conkeldurr but also going along with the move bans we have in place right now.

 

just a thought but I think it could be a solution. 

Edited by Impulse5095
Miss spell

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4 hours ago, Impulse5095 said:

couldn’t we just ban elemental punches on conk, like we did with Draco on hydre

hydre draco is not available except via gift. staff gave out at least one not sure how many and the TC could look and determine it's place possibly in uber with draco meteor. or they could ban draco on hydre. 

banning less then half a dozen individual pokemon that no one else has access to is not the same as the complex ban you are proposing. it's against policy for good reason. not going over it all now, read the TC guide.

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2 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

hydre draco is not available except via gift. staff gave out at least one not sure how many and the TC could look and determine it's place possibly in uber with draco meteor. or they could ban draco on hydre. 

banning less then half a dozen individual pokemon that no one else has access to is not the same as the complex ban you are proposing. it's against policy for good reason. not going over it all now, read the TC guide.

Correct me if I'm wrong but we now have the Draco Meteor tutor. Draco Meteor has been banned on hydreigon because it was too powerful on it and uber worthy, so it's a complex ban.

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4 hours ago, Zymogen said:

He referenced Bold Metagross in a previous post so be prepared

And the bs award goes to.

I said bold metagross was a counter. Metagross as a whole is a check. 

Please think before posting.

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4 hours ago, Aerun said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but we now have the Draco Meteor tutor. Draco Meteor has been banned on hydreigon because it was too powerful on it and uber worthy, so it's a complex ban.

when did this happen?

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4 hours ago, Lazaaro said:

Well you should namedrop them all, because I don't believe there are more than 5 or 6.

 

Anyhow, you should namedrop those 13 checks, cuz maybe Conkeldurr is actually easy to counter and we just haven't figured out how yet.

2

I legit did in an earlier post. 

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Correct so if this complex ban, I don’t see the issue with banning the moves on it. A lot of people think I’m for the no ban on pokes from the past, but as of right now if nothing is done as in the punches ban, I think conk needs to go. 

 

But without the coverage options and adding stone miss I think it will be able to be handled.

 

just my thoughts on Conkeldurr right now.

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