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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

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3 minutes ago, Mnemosyne said:

If you hate Conkel just bring a rain team with mixed Dragonite and Pelipper or bring a Chandelure or something.

 

I don't really think Conk is that problematic. 

How exactly does chandelure counter him, when a tpunch or stone edge brings him down, same applis to pelipper and dnite. At best they're checks, but going in, on a conkel is always risky business.

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30 minutes ago, Mnemosyne said:

Well it's not healthy if you are forced to run either Chansey or Blissey to 'counter ' one mon. While Hydreigon also gets U-turn to keep momentum if the opponnent has one of the big blob's.

Currently Mantine also does the job quite comfortably vs Hydreigon. I wouldn't say that people are using Chansey or Blissey to specifically counter Hydreigon, more so that they're just too good to not use at the moment. 

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5 minutes ago, Mnemosyne said:

If you hate Conkel just bring a rain team with mixed Dragonite and Pelipper or bring a Chandelure or something.

 

I don't really think Conk is that problematic. 

Just dedicate three slots to beating it :^)

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. hydreigon can´t beat chansey. Oh my god. Fucking lmao. Im dying.

Ok, if you all think hydreigon cant beat chansey, then Im afraid you are right, hydra is bad.

EDIT: Sry but this was about the most funny thing I have read in here after murcielago.

Edited by pachima

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What I can see is that people here have 6 moveslots conkeldurr, are so pro that they predict well everysingle turn. Conkeldurr also comes safely against everything and switchs in without taking damage. There are no ghosts to stop drain punch heal and therefore to make conk able to return safely in the future. Sorry guys, if I am not that pro.

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2 hours ago, pachima said:

What I can see is that people here have 6 moveslots conkeldurr, are so pro that they predict well everysingle turn. Conkeldurr also comes safely against everything and switchs in without taking damage. There are no ghosts to stop drain punch heal and therefore to make conk able to return safely in the future. Sorry guys, if I am not that pro.

4

Okay, I'll go deeper with the case of moves as well...
You can safely assume, without any predictions or anything, a Conkeldurr has Drain Punch.
Most likely 99% of serious Conkeldurrs will have Mach Punch as well.

You are left with two slots populated with two of Facade, Bulk Up, Thunder Punch, Ice Punch for all mainstream builds
Aaand for haters on specific switch-ins, there is Rock Slide, Payback, Superpower, Earthquake... etc.

This is out of your control when playing against a Conkeldurr and you can't "learn" how to play around this by experience. It's pure luck assuming the opponents don't know each other and Conkeldurr doesn't change movesets or it's opponent change countering mons between battles accordingly. It's an instant-win gamble where either Conkelldur wins or it's a draw.


When you learn the other 2 moves that specific Conkeldurr has it will probably be too late to do something about it and you are left without your Conkeldurr check and Conkeldurr is grinning in front of you waiting to sweep or revenge kill rest of your team accordingly.

It won't even bother with using its coverage move on you, it will just silently go out of your way as if it's checked properly, knowing what you'll do when you see Conkeldurr next, and once it's out of Conkeldurr's way, rest of your team is a piece of cake.
At next opportunity, if conk has properly matching move it's an easy prediction from there. Most of the time a Conkeldurr's team will cover with what Conkeldurr can't handle anyways.

Insert any Intimidator here,
You get a Bulk Up or two.

You send a Gengar when you see a Conkeldurr!
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Payback (50 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 288-340 (109.9 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Oops! Conkeldurr should be around 50%~ hp assuming switch-ins are not done horribly wrong.

You send a Reuniculus!
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 229-270 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Conkeldurr outspeeds it on next turn) Oh, noes! Conkeldurr should be around 63%~ hp assuming switch-ins are not done horribly wrong.

You have a Chandelure!
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Payback (50 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 208-246 (79.6 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Okay, you get to live for another day with 15%~ hp, a stealth rock weakness and without any recovery... effective counter confirmed. Conkeldurr smiles and switches out for now with 50%~ hp assuming switch-ins are not done horribly wrong which is enough to take burn damage for 4 turns. Feel free to use your other 5 mons until one get's KO'ed... The opponent also has 1 unusable mon now anyways, if it uses it and it's down, it's even better.

This is your chance, kill it with Volcarona before it lays eggs!
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 808-952 (259.8 - 306.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 377-444 (121.2 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 269-317 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 81-96 (26 - 30.8%)

seriously who really uses Volcarona as a blind check to this beast... it was mentioned anyways...

Togekiss destroys Conkeldurr!
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 296-350 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

it can still Roost, am I right? Honestly, this is closest you can get to a reliable switch-in for an unlucky moveset. Too bad thunder punch is most commonly used one.
Either way, Conkeldurr switches out with 50%~ hp unless you are bold/foolish enough to assume it will Roost instead Air Slashing your face... let's not get into predictions here.

 

Feed the Liquid Ooze to the monster! Tentacruel!
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tentacruel: 390-460 (107.4 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tentacruel: 294-346 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tentacruel: 59-69 (16.2 - 19%)

Just hope you are not unlucky enough to encounter a Conkeldurr trainer fed enough with Tentacruels to run Earthquake. Either way, there are 4 possible scenarios here with Thunder Punch assuming initial switch-ins are not done horribly wrong;

  1. Conekldurr calls it a day and switches out with 33%~ hp getting checked effectively for the second time. Leaving Tentacruel with 18%~ hp.
  2. Conkeldurr KO'es Tentacruel after Mach Punch and lives with 21%~ hp assuming initial switch-in was not done horribly wrong. Considering all the burns and sucked oozes.
  3. Conkeldurr Fails to KO after Mach punch, get's a scald on the face (22.7 - 26.8%) Conkeldurr gets KOed.
  4. Tentacruel belongs to pachima and has a Rocky Helmet instead of Black Sludge. Conkeldurr dies a horrible death.

So... can a Conkeldurr do all of these? Simply no. Most of those examples are not even common scenarios. But when you get a Conkeldurr switched onto your face, and you want to switch out to a common "check", are you risking everything listed above? yes. And if that check is out of its way rest of your team will get heavily crippled or swept by it? yes. This is all only to explain the moveset part but as I mentioned before, the moveset is not the only concern for Conkeldurr right now.

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Very well, time for a little slight more serious input into conkeldurr

Why? Because 1- I believe banning it is not necessary, and 2- Because if you ban it, I am not in the mood to go back in time to gen3 and watch 300+ turns with chansey/blissey dominating the tier with 120 and 140% usage respectively.

Counters: As someone claimed in the past, We are in a tier that we can´t bring ourselves to think instinctively for counters because there might be none. (It seems this argument here is used randomly for some reason but whatever). Either way, there are still some counters for conkeldurr.  Cofagrigus is probably the best one unless your conkeldurr has 12 moves, 3 natures, and 2 items, one of which is iron ball for fling. The set that seems most threatening so far seems guts flame orb for obvious reasons. Life orb sheer force is great too but fails on that drain punch damage. Either way, conk needs a switch in in order to get the burn boost immediately for the next round. On that switch in, there will be damage involved (Yes, yes I know there might not be, you are the prediction master bla bla bla bla) But realistically, you should assume that. Then there is some risk indeed, but depending what is conkeldurr coming on, you can scout some of its moves (There is also protect that chansey/blissey can use to stack a little more that flame orb damage). Eventually, a conk that gets hazards, slight switch-in damage and flame orb damage is almost forced to predict well its next move, otherwise conkeldurr takes the risk of regaining no life and barely hurting the enemy. (Conk can´t regain health without drain punch anyway, so a good player (Yes, we are assuming both players are equal-skilled, which apprently is not true cuz conk predicts well every single turn) can force conk to drain punch eventually. But well, I admit, counters are little before you know the set, and few after you know.

Checks: Shut up Pachima (This will be quoted, or not because I now typed this). Conk has no counters, its busted, period.

Very well, I assume there are few checks to conkeldurr right? Let´s see:

Gengar (Substitute + psychic, or to a lower extent, sludge bomb can check and rack flame orb damage before it kills it - Gengar isnt likely to come in a 100% health conk anyway.

Starmie - Offensive starmie checks conk easily, and can even switch in on some predicted moves.

Dragonite - the rain abuser dragonite can check Conk as well, and since rain is so prominent nowadays, rain abuser dragonite is a force to be reckoned with.

Skarmory - Skarmory is half a counter actually that can force conk out even after switching in, but I will consider it just a check nevertheless. (Brave-bird variants ofc)

Kingdra - Actually, I have used bold kingdra, and that thing can counter conkeldurr. A Bulky modest kingdra can´t counter, but can check it pretty easily (Yes, it suffers high damage, but then you get to spam crits all day that are not easily stopped except by twin-cancer sisters)

Peliper - Offensive hurricane just shreds Conk. A more defensive one can also counterish non-tpunch sets, but a check nevertheless.

Salamence - Just needs some slight prior damage and it then can check with draco meteor. (Also has intimidate)

Metagross- Bold metagross counters Conk. I have used it countless times and it works. It gets wore down after a while, but whatever. Also stops scizors and whatever so its not specific to conk. Most metas still are able to check conk with either psychic or zen headbutt. (B-but my conkeldurr has 252 hp-atk-def and has bulk up all the time without losing coverage, so meta can´t check- Good for you)

Togekiss - Air slash, period.

Gliscor - Offensive Gliscor can acrobactics, period too.

Darmanitan - Unless conk is bulked up (Which doesnt seem to be the problem here) - Darmanitan can ohko with life orb/banded flare blitz.

Reuniclus - Also half a counter to all non-facade sets. Checks easily though (Even though psychic spam is not a good thing in this OU)

Chandelure - Overheat can ohko conk. Can also counter most versions, and can also scout some moves.

 

You need more: Slowbro, jellicent, cofagrigus, all can counter Conk - Jelli is the shakiest of them all, but whatever. Also they are all UU. There are more in NU, but those are irrelevant to discuss.

 

Also, just for fun. People claim conk is busted, broken, broken, op, and also even busted. Then I go see usage stats and find out Blissey is 2nd most used and ferro is 4th most used in this OU tier. Have fun!

 

Edited by pachima

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Spotted the dedicated Conkedurr player.

In my opinion there are enough reasons why conkedurr is busted right now: many people use walls, especially kinds like ferrothorn, milotic or blissey/chansey in teams, so it is easy to switch a conkedurr in and get the burn guts. With a combination of tpunch and drain punch alone, gliscor, venusaur and whimsi are the only pokemon not getting hit effectively by this combination.

For the other pokemons you want to switch in, its pretty much a gamble. Even the case you predict correctly and be able to switch in the pokemon pachi mentioned above (well half of them with this nature/moveset are only viable vs conkedurr but may lose vs other ou matchup). Those pokemon can be countered reliably by the popular walls in ou without any worries (Chansey walling pretty much half). With conkedurr you need to take a risk; a wrong prediction and your switchin pokemon is pretty much gone. Dont forget he has recovery and a devastating prio move. 

The only pokemon in my opinion you can switch in without problems is Cofagrius. Even with his obvious weaknesses he gains more popularity for the sole reason to counter conkedurr. 

I also think we missing many pkm like zapdos, celebi etc. or some with their HA in order to have more reliable counters to conke.

Edited by Tundran

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On 8/24/2018 at 10:55 PM, PrincessDia said:

 

  • Starts around 300+ base attack @ Level 50 without any setup with Guts.
  • A life-draining STAB move, a priority move and a rich pool of coverage moves.
  • Ability to deal with many walls due to considerable sustain, wide coverage and not being affected by crippling moves of walls. Basically, the majority of the tier is not switchable into it without getting crippled heavily.
  • Unable to be crippled with status effects due having a burn on it all the time.
  • Errr... Trick Room lead along with Conkeldurr?... Let's not get into that... you got my point... had to mention it, sorry
  • Can set up for greater glory if an opportunity is given if it runs bulk up 

 

Life orb sheer force conkeldurr is a better set than flame orb guts though guts can be used on some sets.  1.69 multiplier on attack out the gate is just stronger than status 1.5 buff.

 

 

Trick room is an inferior gimmick strategy that will never be able to be used well as long as it doesn't have a turn extending item or a stupid opponent.

 

Anyway, conkel was ou in 5th gen so for it to be broken something will have to have changed. 

 

" Bulky Psychic-types, such as Celebi, Latias, Reuniclus, Slowbro, and Mew, are some of the best go-to switch-ins, as they take minimal damage from Payback and can retaliate with Psychic; however, some must be cautious of Conkeldurr's coverage moves. Physically defensive bulwarks, such as Hippowdon, Skarmory, Jellicent, and Gliscor, are also effective Conkeldurr checks, but they also need to be wary of its coverage moves. Offensive Gliscor can also pound Conkeldurr with Acrobatics, as can Scizor. Using strong special attackers to puncture through Conkeldurr's low Special Defense is another method to check Conkeldurr, especially under the appropriate weather; these include Latios's Draco Meteor, Keldeo's rain-boosted Hydro Pump, Dragonite's Hurricane, and Volcarona's sun-boosted Fire Blast. It's more difficult to handle Conkeldurr physically due to its high Defense and access to Bulk Up, but using strong Choice Band attackers, such as Garchomp and Dragonite for their powerful Outrage, Landorus-T with its Earthquake, and Breloom with Low Sweep (Breloom can also cripple Conkeldurr with Spore) work well when Conkeldurr is weakened enough, and they can all tank a boosted Mach Punch. "

 

Celebi and latias aren't in the game.  Reuniclus is in the game, Slowbro is crippled.  Mew isn't in the game.  Hippowdown, skarmory, jellicent, and gliscor are all in the game.  Scizor is in the game.  Latios and keldeo are not in the game, dragonite and volcarona weather sets are crippled due to weather being finite.  Garchomp  isn't in the game and dragonite don't get powerful outrages. Land-t isn't in the game, and breloom is crippled without technician. 

 

Basically, you are forced to put two of these on your team:

Reniclus

Hippowdon

Skarmory

Jellicent

Gliscor

Scizor

..

and stuff not mentioned because its more 7th gen or better here

...

Cofagrigus

Dusclops

Pelipper

Mantine

 

 

Is that ban worthy to be forced to have two out of a pool of ten or 15 pokes for one mon?  I don't know.  I agree its annoying.  What I do know is the moment conkeldurr is banned chansey will take over the tier and skarmbliss will ruin the game.  For that reason I can't support any conkeldurr ban unless chansey is banned first.  The chansey stall should be stopped

at all costs.

 

I'm sure some people here like stall and its probably the same group that enjoys scouting opponents and winning off of having a greater amount of comp pokes stored away and having more perfect ivs since defensive stuff in general needs better ivs.  The nature of how pvp works here has to favor offense more heavily than defense or it will just turn into a dull meta. 

 

Its just funny that a mon is 2nd in usage, gets a huge buff that makes it wall almost twice as much stuff, then people are in the thread discussing banning its best counter.  When I first joined this game it was specifically to get away from eviolite chansey which is in my opinion the worst thing nintendo ever did to this game.  Its just so unfun to play against in every gen and limits offensive teambuilding to absolutely requiring a physical fighting move (or cb outrage but that's nerfed here too).  To make it worse, stuff that beats skarmbliss like infernape isn't implemented.  Banning conk would be a huge mistake because there's a much bigger problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Aard

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22 minutes ago, Tundran said:

Spotted the dedicated Conkedurr player.

 

Fun fact. I only used conkeldurr in 3 matches. It is now sitting on the pc to rot, cuz it is not my style.

Stopped reading there cause when a sentence starts with a big bloody lie, everything else crumbles apart.

Last thing: "Chansey walling pretty much half" - Hey guys, chansey is that mon that can be used in any team and can wall everything so stall is great once again. Let´s ban conkeldurr too so chansey gets even better. Like fuck off. You weren´t here were stall was predominant and 500 turns matches were a thing. Dont try to optimize stall once again because offense also needs a way to stand up.

 

Now, for @Aard

First of all, thank you. I believe people aren´t thinking thoroughly and most are simply ignoring what would happen AFTER conk gets banned.

Just a little thing: I prefer sheer force conkeldurr too, but sheer force doesn´t boost drain punch and mach punch, so I believe overall guts is the best set for it rn.

 

Also, for those top tier global awarded players that doesnt miss a predict, Having latias, latios, mew and celebi in game changes nothing, cause these people will just ohko and 2hko all those with they predicted moves all the time. Therefore neither of those are a counter for the mighty skill of the pokemmo playerbase.

Also forgot to say that apparently its really easy to forget conkeldurr had a boosted knock off spamming against every psychic mon in gen5 Smogon, which oh yeah doesnt have in here.

 

But well, I dare you to ban it. Then I dare you to look at how popular chansey and Blissey will be, and then I dare you to make all the playerbase wait another 6 months for you to fix the tier once again to a somewhat steady state. At this point I hardly care. I don´t use conkeldurr anyway, just as I stated above so this won´t affect me that bad. 

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2 hours ago, gbwead said:

What's wrong with Cofagrigus as a Conkeldurr counter?

Lacks a reliable recovery, it also gets easily pursuit trapped

Edited by Aerun

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3 minutes ago, Aerun said:

Lacks a reliable recovery and its HA, it also gets easily pursuit trapped

Is this a fair troll?

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3 minutes ago, Aerun said:

Lacks a reliable recovery and its HA, it also gets easily pursuit trapped

Flame Orb Conkeldurr also lacks recovery against Cofagrigus, so does it really prevent Cofagrigus from being effective? As for Pursuit Trapping, I feel Cofa should be able to handle Pursuit Trapping with WoW in the same way Reuniclus handled Pursuit Trapping by using Focus Blast.

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Just now, gbwead said:

Flame Orb Conkeldurr also lacks recovery against Cofagrigus, so does it really prevent Cofagrigus from being effective? As for Pursuit Trapping, I feel Cofa should be able to handle Pursuit Trapping with WoW in the same way Reuniclus handled Pursuit Trapping by using Focus Blast.

 

1- Cofa deals slightly better with pursuit trapping and the likes of scizor cuz wow and higher defense I think (Not sure)

2- Sadly Cofagrigus doesn´t possess in this game its HA, making it infintely weaker in this tier.

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25 minutes ago, pachima said:

But well, I dare you to ban it. Then I dare you to look at how popular chansey and Blissey will be, and then I dare you to make all the playerbase wait another 6 months for you to fix the tier once again to a somewhat steady state. At this point I hardly care. I don´t use conkeldurr anyway, just as I stated above so this won´t affect me that bad. 

Pachi, you really need to stop using this as an argument. Breaking Chansey/Blissey is not that dependent on Conkeldurr, we have so many Pokemon that destroy them in the viable OU metagame. It's much easier to come up with Pokemon to deal with Chansey and Blissey compared to deal with Conkeldurr, this is not even debatable. If you don't consider Conkeldurr to be bad enough to warrant a ban, that's fair enough and I can respect that but using this as an argument to me almost weakens the position to not ban Conkeldurr if the reason to not ban is Chansey/Blissey rather than it the fact Conkeldurr is actually manageable enough. 

 

Edit: Now, I'm not saying that was your only argument but don't use it at all.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac

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2 hours ago, gbwead said:

Flame Orb Conkeldurr also lacks recovery against Cofagrigus, so does it really prevent Cofagrigus from being effective? As for Pursuit Trapping, I feel Cofa should be able to handle Pursuit Trapping with WoW in the same way Reuniclus handled Pursuit Trapping by using Focus Blast.

I thought people would run toxic spikes instead of WoW, I guess I was wrong.

Also serious question, but does cofagrigus have any other purpose than being a conkeldurr switchin? Could be a spinblocker but people use defog more often.

 

Edited by Aerun

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6 minutes ago, Aerun said:

I thought people would run toxic spikes instead of WoW, I guess I was wrong.

Also serious question, but does cofagrigus have any other purpose than being a conkeldurr switchin? Could be a spinblocker but people use defog more often.

I would personally use toxic spikes instead of wow too if I had Cofagrigus and, since most Pursuit Trappers are banded, I would play Protect as well to help it recover more with Pain Split. It should be pretty useful against Mienshao (blocking regenerator) and Scizor (depending on the set).

Edited by gbwead

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Just now, OrangeManiac said:

Pachi, you really need to stop using this as your argument. Breaking Chansey/Blissey is not that dependent on Conkeldurr, we have so many Pokemon that destroy them in the viable OU metagame. It's much easier to come up with Pokemon to deal with Chansey and Blissey compared to deal with Conkeldurr, this is not even debatable. If you don't consider Conkeldurr to be bad enough to warrant a ban, that's fair enough and I can respect that but using this as an argument to me almost weakens the position to not ban Conkeldurr if the reason to not ban is Chansey/Blissey rather than it the fact Conkeldurr is actually manageable enough. 

Fair enough, and I admit you are right there, but I legit made a post with 13 viable checks for conkeldurr. (Out of OU only) Some of those can counter with some scouting beforehand (As in switches or whatever)

Lastly, if you watch the first 7 or 8 top used mons in OU, you realize none of them beat conkeldurr. This, in my opinion shows two things: Either conk is not troublesome enough for people to halt the usage of these mons, because if it really was, people would decrease their usage (Unless they like to lose) and 2: Shows that conk beats stall (Some type of stall actually). As an offensive player, I never had trouble with conkeldurr, and I use gigalith/ferrothorn often. OU is consisted in 39 Pokemons. The problem I see with conkeldurr is not that it beats the majority of them, but that it beats what people like to use more often. 1/3rd of the tier can potentially check it without trouble. If people stick to those 2/3rds that can´t all that time, and don´t even get a counter for it, then I assume they are literally asking Conk to rofltstomp them.

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