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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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14 hours ago, Gl00n said:

Don't know if this is the right place to ask but, I havent seen Lanturn on the tierlists whatsoever, the list updates I've found only ofcourse. 

Was wondering why he wouldn't be on there even as a C tier poke. Or if its in untiered or someting. Has a strong ability and works well in rain teams and 'can' cripple some stuff thats slower or tankable with either Twave or toxic. 

there's a better thread to post this isn't there? (sorry if too far off topic)

This thread is to request an in-depth discussion for banworthy Pokemon/Mechanics in the OU tier but yeah.

Lanturn is pretty decent, just not used enough to be OU, I've seen it put in work and fill a small niche that can blindside a lot of teams B- or C tier in terms of viability would be accurate. Sadly Rotom-W will probably steal its niche soon enough when it's released.

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On 9/16/2019 at 4:46 PM, suigin said:

This thread is to request an in-depth discussion for banworthy Pokemon/Mechanics in the OU tier but yeah.

Lanturn is pretty decent, just not used enough to be OU, I've seen it put in work and fill a small niche that can blindside a lot of teams B- or C tier in terms of viability would be accurate. Sadly Rotom-W will probably steal its niche soon enough when it's released.

As I thought, not the best place :p 

Rotom is fair, better stat spread movepool and levitate

Guessing Lanturn will move down to UU when the changes come through

Thank you in any case for the replies^

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  • 3 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...

So. I have been doing a little matchmaking, and although Sinnoh came just a few days ago, I am already watching a set being abused. But I will get to it later. Now, I bet everyone was expecting such a thread to pop on eventually and, despite I said I wouldn´t get involved in any more of this, This case deserves special attention:
 

JOegmHf.png?1

 

As we can see, we got ourselves a stupid powerhouse, which gamefreak decided to give 102 base speed because yes, and to outspeed all other dragons in the tier. Ladies and gentlemans, what we are looking at is a mon that reaches 169 speed maxed, hits as hard as salamence or dragonite (Just irrelevantly tad weaker), with better stabs and a key resistance to stealth rocks, which the other 2 lack. But if you think garchomp just hits hard, you are in for a surprise. If you make easy maths and approximations, you will realize Garchomp possesses ~92% of Mandibuzz´s bulkiness (In both sides of the spectrum), which is supr terrifying for an offensive powerhouse like this one.

 

Moving on, Garchomp posseses a single ability in the form of Sand Veil. In such a short timespan, I already saw people spamming sub lefties garchomp under sand to try and fish those juicy misses. This specific combo turns Garchomp into one uncompetitive beast that, with its amazing speed and typing, has little to lose by spamming substitute until opponent finally misses a move. If we remove Sand Veil out of equation (Which I would vote for a ban, complex ban, or whatever) Garchomp is still a force to be reckoned with. Not only this cutie thing is able to come in safely against a lot of stuff due to its holy defenses and typing, but also has virtually no good counters, with remarkable exceptions in the form of ice fang Gliscor, Bronzong , Skarmory and Mandibuzz (Note that even these can fall to some sets, but thats not relevant here).

 

There are some revenge killers yes, although not in a great number. Unlike salamence or Hydreigon, Garchomp is much more sturdy against the likes of scarf darmanitan, and even lowly spatk invested HP ICE mienshao fails to get the kill, even when garchomps is subdued by rocks. Nevertheless, depending on the set, checks include ice beam starmie, scarf Hydreigon, Scarf Salamence, HP ICE jolteon,  and virtually any common ice shard mon that possesses a boosting item. (Note that all these can fail if they face a sand veil garchomp in sand)

 

Conclusion: Sand veil should, in my opinion, be banned under uncompetitive criteria (Or unhealthy? I always mix these). If we remove this ability out of the equation, it is still really problematic in the tier, but I believe  its possible to find ways to stop it.

I vote for (AT LEAST) A ban on sand veil. 

 

EDIT: Garchomp only has sand veil in MMO. 

DISCUSS!

Edited by pachima
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Interesting points, now let me counter with a famous quote from the best competitive mons player in history, Darkshade. - "Having ubers is essentially bad game design". Oh well! Guess we have to deal with it then! At least sand isn't permanent and so far from my own matchmaking experience, I managed to dodge shit using sand veil ZERO times. Anyways, legendaries when?

Edited by LifeStyleNORE
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4 hours ago, pachima said:

A ban on sand veil.

If we really wanted to strictly apply the competitive clauses, sand veil should already be considered implicitly banned.

There is an evasion clause, which applies only to moves boosting evasion. But it's pretty clear that the aim of this clause isn't just banning this kind of moves, but avoiding useless and uncompetitive RNG coming from random misses, regardless of its source. Garchomp is the first ou mon able to easily abuse its ability, so it's pretty obvious that sand veil should be part of the evasion clause 

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  • 2 months later...

I would like to begin a discussion about potential ban for Wobbufett from OU under uncompetitive/ support characteristics. I think it is high time to finally bring this to the table as over the tournaments I've been spectating, the problem only seems to grow.

 

At first I was wondering where is the real problem. Is it Tickle, is it Wobbu itself, is it Shadow Tag? One could argue that it's Shadow Tag but there's nothing much that can be done about it as it's Wobbu's only ability. If we eliminate tickle, we will still have Encore/ Charm, which would make Dugtrio (or some other incredibly scary mon) switch-in easier. In my opinion, Wobbu in itself is the issue and thus the mon deserves the "Iron Boot of Ghaey" from OU.

 

First of all, Wobbu is incredibly problematic when it comes to tournament duration. Once it switches in, it begins stalling with Encore/ Tickle and due to it's immense bulk, it is capable of doing this multiple times. Not to mention that I've seen the cases when Wobbu got to almost full life after stalling some mon's PP dry just by spamming Tickle.

 

When opp is weakened enough, Dugtrio comes into picture, sets rocks and then just KOs with a single EQ when the opponent is unable to do absolutely anything (as he's trapped). This is uncompetitive to a degree that I can barely find words to describe it (and those that I do find are not suitable for public discussion).

 

It's support characteristics are unparalelled (allowing another mon to switch in safely, set up and just beat the F out of enemy team) when it comes to OU tier and the Wobbu + Dug trapping strats are very uncompetitive. We came to the point that I keep seeing one, same team being spammed in matchmaking or tournaments over and over, thus making the metagame stale (though I'd rather not start a discussion about Wobbu being unhealthy for the tier as it suits uncompetitive/ support characteristics far better).

 

 

Not sure how many other people see things the way I do but it's about time to start sorting tiers out after the Sinnoh update and I believe that getting rid of Wobbu is the first step we'd need to do. Please share your thoughts.

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OU is disgusting right now.  Almost every game I go into, I have to choose to be weak to either Conk / Togekiss / Rain Cheese / Volca.  In the process of answering those specific mons, I open up more holes in my team.  I know it's impossible to cover every threat out there, but I hate that I have to pick and choose what to potentially be weak to and just say "Fuck it."  If I wanted to play rock-paper-scissors, I'd rather do it, and while mons is more fun than that, it's also more infuriating.  I don't like running stall, and the only time I ever do run it is because I care more about winning than having fun, and unfortunately stall is what I feel mostly safe with whenever I load a team.  I don't understand why the fuck we are encouraging players to resort to tactics like trapping, or directing them towards a career of being a fisherman by running something like SG Togekiss and fishing for flinches.  The amount of weightage that matchup has in deciding the outcome of a game is so huge that playing skill can become irrelevant.

 

Can we seriously do things the Smogon way and have players ultimately decide what should be banned or stay in the tier?

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1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

I would like to begin a discussion about potential ban for Wobbufett from OU under uncompetitive/ support characteristics. I think it is high time to finally bring this to the table as over the tournaments I've been spectating, the problem only seems to grow.

 

At first I was wondering where is the real problem. Is it Tickle, is it Wobbu itself, is it Shadow Tag? One could argue that it's Shadow Tag but there's nothing much that can be done about it as it's Wobbu's only ability. If we eliminate tickle, we will still have Encore/ Charm, which would make Dugtrio (or some other incredibly scary mon) switch-in easier. In my opinion, Wobbu in itself is the issue and thus the mon deserves the "Iron Boot of Ghaey" from OU.

 

First of all, Wobbu is incredibly problematic when it comes to tournament duration. Once it switches in, it begins stalling with Encore/ Tickle and due to it's immense bulk, it is capable of doing this multiple times. Not to mention that I've seen the cases when Wobbu got to almost full life after stalling some mon's PP dry just by spamming Tickle.

 

When opp is weakened enough, Dugtrio comes into picture, sets rocks and then just KOs with a single EQ when the opponent is unable to do absolutely anything (as he's trapped). This is uncompetitive to a degree that I can barely find words to describe it (and those that I do find are not suitable for public discussion).

 

It's support characteristics are unparalelled (allowing another mon to switch in safely, set up and just beat the F out of enemy team) when it comes to OU tier and the Wobbu + Dug trapping strats are very uncompetitive. We came to the point that I keep seeing one, same team being spammed in matchmaking or tournaments over and over, thus making the metagame stale (though I'd rather not start a discussion about Wobbu being unhealthy for the tier as it suits uncompetitive/ support characteristics far better).

 

 

Not sure how many other people see things the way I do but it's about time to start sorting tiers out after the Sinnoh update and I believe that getting rid of Wobbu is the first step we'd need to do. Please share your thoughts.

EDIT: (For those who do not understand sarcasm)

 

As I have pointed out months ago, Wobbuffet removes freedom from the opposint team whenever it is sent in the field. A lot of stuff is rendered unusable, and even more can abuse this mon to set up whatever they can set. For this reason bla bla bla, Wobbuffet falls into the category of uncompetitive and should therefore be banned as such. Thanks everyone.

Edited by pachima
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I could't agree more to ban Wobbufett, and even Dugtrio. Trap + Rain is so disgusting now in OU. Blissey, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, and Tyranitar were consider to be Anti-rain mamber in my opinion, but they are easily loss heal or take away by Tickle Wobbufett+ Pursuit Scizor or  Reversal/Earthquake Dugtrio, such setting up brainless environment for rain team (unless walls all bring Shed Shell). Please do a deep discussion this in the up coming month.

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15 minutes ago, pachima said:

nonono No uber mons policy is where its at. Wobbuffet Brokeness is Fair after all.

PS: Before ppl start telling me to start giving arguments, I have done plenty months ago, check them out. Wobyy´s absurdness havent changed.

I dont think it's right, if a certain combo and almost 100% take away a wall, like Tickle Wobbufett+ Pursuit Scizor taking away a normal setting Blissey, it is not a fair game when one side can swith away and the opposite site only see how they fail. Becomes a Trap- Trap game now. lol

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28 minutes ago, mxdzzz said:

I dont think it's right, if a certain combo and almost 100% take away a wall, like Tickle Wobbufett+ Pursuit Scizor taking away a normal setting Blissey, it is not a fair game when one side can swith away and the opposite site only see how they fail. Becomes a Trap- Trap game now. lol

Edited so u can understand.

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Ban Garchomp and Wobbuffet so OU can be great again.

One step at the time imo, let's not make drastic changes all at once, especially now when Sand Veil has been disabled in pvp and Chomp is "healthier" than it was. I'd prefer to see how meta will evolve and adapt after Wobbu will be gone from OU, I cannot figure out any examples but maybe Wobbu's disappearance will open a way to effectively handle Chomp.

 

Keep in mind it's just my opinion, I might be wrong, but hey- that's why we are here to discuss stuff. For now I would really like to focus on Wabba because I see it as a massive issue in OU, way bigger than Garchomp, although I admit, I didn't sacrifice much time to think about Garchomp's impact on the tier. 

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9 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

One step at the time imo, let's not make drastic changes all at once, especially now when Sand Veil has been disabled in pvp and Chomp is "healthier" than it was. I'd prefer to see how meta will evolve and adapt after Wobbu will be gone from OU, I cannot figure out any examples but maybe Wobbu's disappearance will open a way to effectively handle Chomp.

 

Keep in mind it's just my opinion, I might be wrong, but hey- that's why we are here to discuss stuff. For now I would really like to focus on Wabba because I see it as a massive issue in OU, way bigger than Garchomp, although I admit, I didn't sacrifice much time to think about Garchomp's impact on the tier. 

As much as I would like to see Wobbuffet getting banned, Garchomp remains imo a more pressing matter and, if I had to choose between one or the other, Garchomp would be the one getting banned first.

 

However, I don't think such a choice is necessary since, even though it's not a good idea to ban two things at once, I am confident these two mons fit uber characteristics regardless of their interaction with each other.

Edited by gbwead
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Remove Tickle from Wobb's movepool, it was steadily dropping to Untiered until some people brought up that it lacked that move and it was added in to its movepool, causing this mess.

Was it obnoxious to play against even without Tickle? Absolutely, but it was way more matchup reliant and didn't always ensure a certain mon in your team would sweep once the combination of Wobb+Dug/Pursuit guarantee removed it from play.

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