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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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Hydreigon doesn't have access to Draco Meteor at all, if matchmaking bans still feature Hydreigon+Draco Meteor it's probably a redundant thing unless Doc still has Draco on his own Hydreigon.

Also I did suggest adjusting Conkeldurr in a similar manner to Hydreigon but the conversation never moved too much from there.

Edited by suigin
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21 minutes ago, pachima said:

And the bs award goes to.

I said bold metagross was a counter. Metagross as a whole is a check. 

Please think before posting.

Alright everyone, pachima’s getting pedantic.

 

I can’t say I bothered to read your essay - I turned away as soon as I saw Bold Metagross being spoken about in a serious manner as I was skimming past. If that is the kind of rock-bottom standard you are setting with regard to Conkeldurr counters and/or checks then we need not continue.

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3 hours ago, Aard said:

Its not.  And I'm discussing it because some people specifically want to ban it to make their dull playstyle stronger.  We got to the meat of it with "50/50's predictions are bad" so it was a helpful discussion.  Also, I thought that this was a general discussion for ou, not just for conk.  I think chansey should be banned immediately independent of what's done to conk. 

what? you have no basis for accusing completely unnamed people of nefarious reasons for wanting to ban conk. I have no problems with discussing OU in general on this thread, but I was specifically talking about people who think Conk SHOULDNT be banned because "then X will happen." Not only is this pure speculation, but we also don't keep broken things in the tier on the off chance something else might become broken later. If Conk is busted and OP, it'll go. Then we'll sort out what happens after

 

1 hour ago, Impulse5095 said:

Couldn’t we just ban elemental punches on conk, like we did with Draco on hydre? I think that’s what causes the most problematic issues for the checks right now. 

 

Some calcs could be ran without the punches, for stone edge to probably replace them. 

 

Idk if this could be a solution to keeping Conkeldurr but also going along with the move bans we have in place right now.

 

just a thought but I think it could be a solution. 

This was why I was personally against a Draco meteor complex ban - because it opens up the floodgates for suggestions like this. "Hey since pokemon X had a complex ban to keep it from being OP why not do the same thing with pokemon Y?" And I'm not criticizing you for saying this - you are totally right and logical to think this way. However, complex bans are a dangerous thing to abuse and, IMO, should only be reserved for extreme situations where a regular flat ban isn't adequate. So, my personal opinion is that conk should just be banned if its too strong, and there's no reason to complicate things with a complex ban (not to mention the weeks long discussion we'll have about WHAT to complex ban)

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12 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

what? you have no basis for accusing completely unnamed people of nefarious reasons for wanting to ban conk. I have no problems with discussing OU in general on this thread, but I was specifically talking about people who think Conk SHOULDNT be banned because "then X will happen." Not only is this pure speculation, but we also don't keep broken things in the tier on the off chance something else might become broken later. If Conk is busted and OP, it'll go. Then we'll sort out what happens after

 

This was why I was personally against a Draco meteor complex ban - because it opens up the floodgates for suggestions like this. "Hey since pokemon X had a complex ban to keep it from being OP why not do the same thing with pokemon Y?" And I'm not criticizing you for saying this - you are totally right and logical to think this way. However, complex bans are a dangerous thing to abuse and, IMO, should only be reserved for extreme situations where a regular flat ban isn't adequate. So, my personal opinion is that conk should just be banned if its too strong, and there's no reason to complicate things with a complex ban (not to mention the weeks long discussion we'll have about WHAT to complex ban)

I agree if we’re going that way, I just don’t understand why hydregion is not in the same boat as Conkeldurr? If we go one way and can’t for another but actually keep hydregion but ban Conkeldurr, isn’t that kind of wrong tiering? 

 

What i I mean by this hydregion should have already been banned with that mind set if we don’t have complex bans. 

 

going forward we either ban them both or keep going with complex bans. 

 

But i I also thought we were going with the no ban pokes with the new start in unova? I’m just confused on the way things were being handled to why the change? I just don’t like the idea of jumping from one thing to the other because now Conkeldurr is an issue. To me it’s the same principle on banning Pokémon x now we have to ban Pokémon y. Both are bad but sense we went down the rabbit hole of complex bans, I don’t see harm in testing Conkeldurr with complex and if it doesn’t even out then I think hydregion and Conkeldurr both go and go back to old tiering ways without complex bans.

 

 

Edited by Impulse5095
Mis spell
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2 hours ago, Gunthug said:

 If Conk is busted and OP, it'll go. Then we'll sort out what happens after.

I have no doubt on that.  But I fear it will go for the opposite reason.  Conk is the most balancing mon in the game.  People admitted they want it banned simply because they can't deal with 50/50 situations. That is a terrible reason to ban something.  Choice band slaking could be banned for the same reason, but that doesn't crush stall which is what people are really saying.  They want their cookie cutter stall teams to work after scouting.  They don't want someone who is better at the game to beat outpredict them and win which conk can do even after being scouted.  Whoever predicts better should win a pokemon battle.  Conk achieves that and nothing more, bottom line. Chansey on the other hand...  I don't think I've ever seen the person with the chansey be better at prediction.  It is a crutch.  And that is mostly in places without a chronic scouting problem.

Edited by Aard
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3 minutes ago, Aard said:

I have no doubt on that.  But I fear it will go for the opposite reason.  Conk is the most balancing mon in the game.  People admitted they want it banned simply because they can't deal with 50/50 situations. That is a terrible reason to ban something.  Choice band slaking could be banned for the same reason, but that doesn't crush stall which is what people are really saying.  They want their cookie cutter stall teams to work after scouting.  They don't want someone who is better at the game to beat outpredict and win.  Whoever predicts better should win a pokemon battle.  Conk achieves that and nothing more, bottom line. Chansey on the other hand...  I don't think I've ever seen the person with the chansey be better at prediction.  It is a crutch.

Are you really comparing Slaking and conkeldurr ?

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9 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

bait detected

It solves the scouting problem to a degree other mons don't. 

 

7 minutes ago, Aerun said:

Are you really comparing Slaking and conkeldurr ?

I'm comparing the 50/50 situations people wanted it banned for.  They both has similar attack stats, hp stats, and movepools.  Both can pick out kills with good prediction on switches.  The difference is that Slaking cannot always ko stall mons on good prediction which is really what this is about.

 

 

 

Go out and put something like a gliscor and starmie on your team and see how many times you really lose to conk.  Even if your prediction is terrible its not going to have the odds in its favor.  The only thing you can't do against it is play brainless stall and always switch to the same thing.

 

There's a reason smogon never even considered banning it, and it wasn't the latis or lando-t since they are kod with good prediction by ice punch just like all the other stuff we've talked about

Edited by Aard
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13 minutes ago, Aard said:

People admitted they want it banned simply because they can't deal with 50/50 situations. 

 

Yes, I admit I want it banned because I can't deal with 50/50 situation where it's either a draw or Conkeldurr wins.
 

As, the free win with Conkeldurr abuse increase in OU, I see people exclusively use it with another fighting mon in the team to scout what would be counter or check to Conkeldurr on opposing team and play accordingly, there goes everyone's calculations of 1v1 checking/countering situations. I've also seen several 6 physical teams which rely on Conkeldurr destroying or crippling heavily whatever opposing team has to offer vs physical sweepers. I've started to see more Conkeldurrs than Chanseys/Blisseys Are you still discussing checks and counters here? Snap out of it, lol.

 

I wish we had some up to date official statistics with usage and win rates with Conkeldurr teams.

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30 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

Yes, I admit I want it banned because I can't deal with 50/50 situation where it's either a draw or Conkeldurr wins.
 

As, the free win with Conkeldurr abuse increase in OU, I see people exclusively use it with another fighting mon in the team to scout what would be counter or check to Conkeldurr on opposing team and play accordingly, there goes everyone's calculations of 1v1 checking/countering situations. I've also seen several 6 physical teams which rely on Conkeldurr destroying or crippling heavily whatever opposing team has to offer vs physical sweepers. I've started to see more Conkeldurrs than Chanseys/Blisseys Are you still discussing checks and counters here? Snap out of it, lol.

 

I wish we had some up to date official statistics with usage and win rates with Conkeldurr teams.

Its only a draw/lose if you try to wall it with pure stall.  Anything like starmie or gliscor or anything else reasonable is a lose/win sometimes with two chances for the non-conkel to get it right.  I guarantee we could just poll what type of teams everyone uses and if people were honest we'd get a really accurate correlation between people who play stall and people who think conk should be banned.  Maybe play something with attacking moves.

 

105/95/65 on 45 base speed just isn't broken even with an effective 160 attack stat.  Go build an offensive/balanced team with two fighting resists that aren't both weak to thunder or ice or rock and then play it for a few games.  It might change your opinion of how easy conk is to deal with.  I actually went through and saw if smogon ever banned something with <50 base speed and all I got was a denied vote on reniclus and a mega sableye ban  that was because of its stalling.

 

The worst part about this is if you guys got the small things right then at least it would be an interesting debate.  But most of the people here seem to think guts is preferred over sheer force and that stone edge is better than rock slide (-2.5 power difference +10% accuracy).  Anyway, I don't know what else to say. 

 

Ladder requirements were very helpful on the simulators to weed out people who weren't equipped to make influential decisions.  Without scouting,  a lot of stall players would find making them very difficult.  Here, I don't really know what determines whose voice matters since the ranked ladder doesn't even go by elo correctly.  The highest person on the ladder has a 53% winrrate just because they played a bunch of games.  Then no one broke the 80% winrrate which is weird but the 70% winrates are a lot lower than the 50's and 60's just because of game number.  Anywa,y that's a tangent.  I just don't get how this ban ultimately gets decided.  If its by this thread then that's not good.

Edited by Aard
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1 minute ago, Aard said:

Its only a draw/lose if you try to wall it with pure stall.  Anything like starmie or gliscor or anything else reasonable is a lose/win sometimes with two chances for the non-conkel to get it right.  I guarantee we could just poll what type of teams everyone uses and if people were honest we'd get a rely accurate correlation between people who play stall and people who think conk is overpowered.  Maybe play something with attacking moves.

6

So you are saying a mon that completely negates multiple playstyles unplayable alone is completely okay for the tier?


All my opinions here are not based on my team, and I never ran a pure stall team, even in gen3 days. I spectate matches a lot because I believe earning player experience is not healthy if you only see things from your own perspective. Maybe you should also check what's going on around.

 

1 minute ago, Aard said:

105/95/65 on 45 base speed just isn't broken even with an effective 160 attack stat.  Go build an offensive/balanced team with two fighting resists that aren't both weak to thunder or ice or rock and then play it for a few games.  It might change your opinion of how easy conk is to deal with.  I actually went through and saw if smogon ever banned something with <50 base speed and all I got was a denied vote on reniclus and a mega sableye ban  that was because of its stalling.

4

so you are saying, just because of the chance to meet a single mon I need to build a team with specific typing and resists and it's very healthy for tier? hello, there are 30+ other mons there we should consider too. I also mentioned above my usual competitive team is quite balanced, I change mons here and there but never did a pure stall team. 

 

What are the chances that there are other mons out there with <50 speed, status immune, very bulky, has life-stealing STAB and priority STAB, wide coverage pool, and without any setup, it's EFFECTIVE attack with Guts and burn is 316 @ lvl 50, I don't know what you are talking about... 

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23 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

so you are saying, just because of the chance to meet a single mon I need to build a team with specific typing and resists and it's very healthy for tier? hello, there are 30+ other mons there we should consider too. I also mentioned above my usual competitive team is quite balanced, I change mons here and there but never did a pure stall team. 

 

What are the chances that there are other mons out there with <50 speed, status immune, very bulky, has life-stealing STAB and priority STAB, wide coverage pool, and without any setup, it's EFFECTIVE attack with Guts and burn is 316 @ lvl 50, I don't know what you are talking about... 

You should probably have a fighting resist that's also at least neutral to ice just because every good fightning mon gets ice punch.  And a semi-bulky ground type is pretty standard too.  Just any well balanced team that isn't pure stall should be able to deal with conk just fine.  Really not hard to work thesei nto a team.  Hippow, gliscor, starmie, volcarona, dragonite, salamence, gyarados, pelipper, skarmory, reuniclus.  Really good mons.  Then okay mons: gengar, roserade, metagross, gallade, scizor, swampert, chandelure.  And then if you can't predict and want to specifically just wall things you still got cofagrigus and dusclops.

 

You don't even have to plan for conkeldurr that much.  Just some okay teambuilding is enough and then knowing how to not get outpredicted on every turn.

 

Its stabs are still just 112 and 60 power even if you put them in bold to make them sound scary.

 

 

Sheer force life orb is a 1.69x multiplier on the coverage moves which is better than a 1.5x guts multiplier on stab moves that don't need more buffing to get kills with a flame orb that takes a turn to activate.  The guts set doesn't even use the flame orb, it uses leftovers and relies on tanking status then bulking up.  So, you didn't really get the max attack right since it comes to 356.  Anyway, its kind of exhausting having to do the numbers for both sides of the argument since people aren't even using the right sets to make arguments.  It would be kind of like if I used counter chansey as a reason for wanting to ban it.  Counter chansey kills a lot of its counters which is kind of funny but I'm not going to act like its the main set.

Edited by Aard
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6 minutes ago, Aard said:

You should probably have a fighting resist that's also neutral to ice just because every good fightning mon gets ice punch.  And a semi-bulky ground type is pretty standard too.  Just any well balanced team that isn't pure stall should be able to deal with conk just fine. 

 

 

Its stabs are still just 75 and 60 power even if you put them in bold to make them sound scary.

 

 

Sheer force life orb is a 1.69x multiplier on the coverage moves which is better than a 1.5x guts multiplier on stab moves that don't need more buffing to get kills with a flame orb that takes a turn to activate.  The guts set doesn't even use the flame orb, it uses leftovers and relies on tanking status then bulking up.  So, you didn't really get the max attack right since it comes to 356.  Anyway, its kind of exhausting having to do the numbers for both sides of the argument since people aren't even using the right sets to make arguments. 

2

Excuse me, sir. I'd really love to theory craft with you about what's best and not, but this is not the place for it, flame orb Conkeldurr is the thing plaguing the tier right now and I'll stick to that. Things are put in bold for stressing out some points, but I agree with those things I mentioned in bold being extremely scary.

The general opinion of yours about ice punch and fighters might be true or not. Inside the tier standards, people mainly find things like Milotic, Skarmory, etc more annoying than any others so most popular coverage is Thunder Punch right now. Our primary concern here is our OU tier, not what people at Smogon says for a BW tier that is different than ours, not what is "right" to do in your opinion.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

Excuse me, sir. I'd really love to theory craft with you about what's best and not, but this is not the place for it, flame orb Conkeldurr is the thing plaguing the tier right now and I'll stick to that. Things are put in bold for stressing out some points, but I agree with those things I mentioned in bold being extremely scary.

The general opinion of yours about ice punch and fighters might be true or not. Inside the tier standards, people mainly find things like Milotic, Skarmory, etc more annoying than any others so most popular coverage is Thunder Punch right now. Our primary concern here is our OU tier, not what people at Smogon says for a BW tier that is different than ours, not what is "right" to do in your opinion.

 

 

I wonder if it matches people with similar rating because that's just an inferior set damage wise and gets less kos.  It would be like giving your poke 200 attack evs then leaving the rest blank.  Exactly what with thunder punch kills skarmory besides conkeldurr?  That sounds made up.  Maybe a few things kill gyarados with it but not much on the physical side is koing skarmory.  

 

I'd rather go by a place that dedicated years to a similar tier and has really smart people writing content  than use anecdotal evidence of what biased people say they saw in a few pvp games in a two-week-old meta.

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 185-218 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 143-169 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

140 base attack with life orb doesn't kill unless an ability helps it out and nothing really has 140 base attack so the thunderpunch skarm theory is out the window.

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, funny how this stuff ties together.  A perfect example of why the guts flame orb set is inferior.

Edited by Aard
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Just now, Aard said:

I wonder if it matches people with similar rating because that's just an inferior set damage wise and gets less kos.  IIt would be like giving your poke 200 attack evs then leaving the rest blank.  Exactly what with thunder punch kills skarmory besides conkeldurr?  That sounds made up.  I'd rather go by a place dedicated years to a similar tier and has really smart people writing content  than anecdotal evidence of what sets people saw in a few pvp games. 

Yes, we have a matchmaking system based on ratings. I don't understand your point about 200 attack EVs and leaving the rest blank, please clarify.
What I said about Thunder Punch was regarding Conkeldurr issue. As I said, what you said regarding Ice Punch might be true or not and I'm not gonna discuss it here, I did not agree or disagree because that was out of the scope of what we were discussing on, I don't know which part of that sounds made up. I also mentioned in a previous post that Ice Punch is the second popular coverage move.

 

I will just smile at you calling the majority of players here "not smart", all the data and opinions on a debated topic straightly "anecdotal evidence" and assuming that you know how often people play pvp matches here.

I'll just leave a link here to enlighten you about what Smogon OU tier had so you can compare them to what we have here. 
https://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/formats/ou/

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11 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

I will just smile at you calling the majority of players here "not smart"

I never said that and you know it.  We have had 2 weeks with the update.  Smogon had 2 years.  They figured out what sets work better than us and its not hard to see why a 1.69 multiplier is better than a 1.5 multiplier that takes an extra turn to activate.  You can do all your calcs with bite over crunch because that's what you saw one person use or be correct.

Edited by Aard
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  • Quote

     

    • Tournaments now have a 60-minute time limit placed on early round matches.
      • Finals, Semi-Finals, and Quarter-Finals matches do not have time restrictions.
    • When determining winners in PvP time limit tiebreakers (RMM/Tournaments), the team which dealt the most damage will now be declared the winner

     

    MadaraSixSix lost against koudaii in the CC OU #100 with a 90% Skarmory and a 10% Milotic against a 5% Struggling Reuniclus because koudaii played with his timer on purpose to make the duel ends by this rule, MadaraSixSix would have won less than 1 minute later.

  • Change this garbage rule please...

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Just now, Aard said:

I never said that and you know it. 

 

I just saw you clearly stated that.

 

3 minutes ago, Aard said:

We have had 2 weeks with the update.  Smogon had 2 years.  They figured out what sets work better than us and its not hard to see why a 1.69 multiplier is better than a 1.5x multiplier.  You can do all your calcs with bite over crunch because that's what you saw one person use or be correct.

1

There are many factors that it was very different.
Smogon meta has hidden abilities and legendaries, resulting from that BW had some serious weather wars. It's standards for calculating what's okay to have and what's not okay to have been different because battle conditions were different. Also, there was a team preview thing if I remember correctly preventing people to abuse 2 fighting mon teams to bait out checks and counters before releasing a nasty Conkeldurr on the face. Sweeping a whole team with a grin on the face. That's also the reason we are not ok with Dugtrio and they were fine with it.

None of my calculations or claims were done over 1-2 pvp matches. You are disrespecting me and my experience completely with saying those. I will not get into some personal argument here even though you are constantly trying to provoke me.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Aard said:

There's a reason smogon never even considered banning it, and it wasn't the latis or lando-t since they are kod with good prediction by ice punch just like all the other stuff we've talked about

Yeah that reason was probably because Conk was too slow in BWs metagame as it was plagued with weather wars, which Conk generally cannot deal with. The reason this problem was never introduced was because Smogon had access to legendary mons (mainly psychics like mew and jirachi) that could confidently switch into it and the introduction of fairy type later on. You seem to look at Smogons word as law, Smogon may have started the groundwork for competitive pokemon but in no way should any of their metagames be used to define a Pokemon as broken or not because of one of Smogons metagames said so. 

 

1 hour ago, Aard said:

105/95/65 on 45 base speed just isn't broken even with an effective 160 attack stat.  Go build an offensive/balanced team with two fighting resists that aren't both weak to thunder or ice or rock and then play it for a few games.  It might change your opinion of how easy conk is to deal with.  I actually went through and saw if smogon ever banned something with <50 base speed and all I got was a denied vote on reniclus and a mega sableye ban  that was because of its stalling.

 

The worst part about this is if you guys got the small things right then at least it would be an interesting debate.  But most of the people here seem to think guts is preferred over sheer force and that stone edge is better than rock slide (-2.5 power difference +10% accuracy).  Anyway, I don't know what else to say. 

 

Ladder requirements were very helpful on the simulators to weed out people who weren't equipped to make influential decisions.  Without scouting,  a lot of stall players would find making them very difficult.  Here, I don't really know what determines whose voice matters since the ranked ladder doesn't even go by elo correctly.

Previously in mmo Snorlax was banned twice, once with only a complex ban on curse and another flat out ban.

 

Guts is currently preferred over sheer force because you can run flame orb to 1hko or 2hko any mon in the tier, yes I meant OU and not anything from lower tiers, the fact you would have to use a specific Pokemon to counter something just demonstrates how oppressive it is. You would require the right moveset (and prediction) obviously but that is the main issue, should a Pokemon be allowed to have such a huge threat to your team that you sac one or two of your potential switch ins to just to find out what set it is? Conk can run 3 main sets atm: Sheer Force Orb, Guts Leftovers and Guts Flame Orb. The coverage is up to the player but having to switch to a counter to all 3 of these sets is beyond ridiculous. Lets look at a realistic example: Player 1 has Conk and Player 2 has Chansey out, they have two options Gliscor or Starmie, Player 1 uses Ice Punch while Player 2 switches to Gliscor expecting a Thunder Punch and dies. Even if Conk had attacked the Starmie he would have still chipped it, if Starmie was offensive then Conk has already won, if not sure Conk is walled by that Starmie but Player 1 most definitely has some form to combat Starmie like a pursuit trapper or Ferrothorn.

 

Currently only the tier council make decisions, this is just a thread to openly voice ones opinion.

 

Spoiler

Sorry for posting here instead of the Conk thread, was already too far into the post.

 

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