Jump to content

OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

 It's much easier to come up with Pokemon to deal with Chansey and Blissey compared to deal with Conkeldurr, this is not even debatable.

 

Come up with pokemon that deal with skarmory and chansey.  That is not easy.  There are a few, but being restricted to building with just those narrows the meta too much.

 

It is one the braindead stallteam with the 8-9 options that chansey allows that's the issue.  It has very few counters, and right now conkeldurr is the best one keeping it at bay.

Edited by Aard
Link to comment
4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I would personally use toxic spikes instead of wow too if I had Cofagrigus and, since most Pursuit Trappers are banded, I would play Protect as well to help it recover more with Pain Split. It should be pretty useful against Mienshao (blocking regenerator) and Scizor (depending on the set).

Even though I'd agree with what you said, I don't think cofagrigus helps against Mienshao, it's like dusclops, people could just u-turn predicting a ghost switchin and get a pursuit trapper on the field.

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, Aerun said:

Even though I'd agree with what you said, I don't think cofagrigus helps against Mienshao, it's like dusclops, people could just u-turn predicting a ghost switchin and get a pursuit trapper on the field.

If Cofagrigus doesn't counter Mienshao, what could possibly counter it asided from Gliscor assuming no Hp Ice?

Link to comment
1 minute ago, Aard said:

Come up with pokemon that deal with skarmory and chansey.  That is not easy. 

 

Gengar, Cloyster, Gyarados w/ Taunt, Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Lucario, Darmanitan, Reuniclus, Chandelure, Hydreigon, Arcanine,. Want me to keep going?

 

Fair enough, and I admit you are right there, but I legit made a post with 13 viable checks for conkeldurr. (Out of OU only) Some of those can counter with some scouting beforehand (As in switches or whatever)

Lastly, if you watch the first 7 or 8 top used mons in OU, you realize none of them beat conkeldurr. This, in my opinion shows two things: Either conk is not troublesome enough for people to halt the usage of these mons, because if it really was, people would decrease their usage (Unless they like to lose) and 2: Shows that conk beats stall (Some type of stall actually). As an offensive player, I never had trouble with conkeldurr, and I use gigalith/ferrothorn often. OU is consisted in 39 Pokemons. The problem I see with conkeldurr is not that it beats the majority of them, but that it beats what people like to use more often. 1/3rd of the tier can potentially check it without trouble. If people stick to those 2/3rds that can´t all that time, and don´t even get a counter for it, then I assume they are literally asking Conk to rofltstomp them.

Yeah sorry. I did an edit to my post but a bit too late for you to see it, I didn't mean that Chansey/Blissey was your only argument - just that I find it to be completely besides the point but glad we can agree on that.

 

Usage, although is useful, can be also somewhat misleading. Sometimes a Pokemon doesn't have a high usage because it is the strongest Pokemon in the tier. Often the usage comes from the fact that no other Pokemon can ever be a substitute for it. Now, lots of Pokemon can take Conkeldurr's role as a physical sweeper depending what moves, what speed, what typing you want. What comes to Chansey/Blissey and Ferrothorn, they don't really have the right alternatives for them (maybe Skarmory can take Ferrothorn's spot though). They are so notably better at their own role compared to their alternatives that bringing any alternatives for their role is usually a bad idea in every teambuild possible.

 

Let's keep in mind that Conkeldurr no longer gets walled by Haze stall Milotic due to Life Orb Sheer Force set so the reliability has grown exponentially and could get a sudden raise in usage. Should we wait and see? I mean, probably. But current usage statistics shouldn't get looked too closely and usage shouldn't be the be-all-end-all.

Link to comment

Well in all honesty, once conkeldurr uses bulk up and it is holding flame orb, there is a good chance at least 2 poles will die before stopping it, that's assuming it can still be stopped.

Of course psychic orbed gengar, overheat chandelure can revenge kill it, but Conkeldurr can just switch out until those pokes die, also bulk up conkeldurr paired with scarf tyranitar just ggs almost any team.

Cofagrigus and reuniclus can switch on conkeldurr, but that seems to me like centralization, being forced to run one of those for the sake of having an " uncertain " check to Conkeldurr is wrong imo.

 

tl;dr, bulk up flame orb conkeldurr is a serious threat that needs some solution

Link to comment
5 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Gengar, Cloyster, Gyarados w/ Taunt, Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Lucario, Darmanitan, Reuniclus, Chandelure, Hydreigon, Arcanine,. Want me to keep going?

So many of those can easily get thunder waved on the switch and be crippled for the rest of the game. 

Then after that some of your counters just flat out lose even if they work against blissey.

 

 

4 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 328-386 (45.9 - 54%)

4 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 238-282 (33.9 - 40.1%) 

 

Reuniclus doesn't counter.  Actualyl a very good example of why chansey is more broken than blissey.

 

+6 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 552-649 (78.6 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 756-889 (105.8 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Sure if you let it get up to +6 it can kill chansey, but chansey can switch on any turn and force some tunrs to be recovery through seismic toss so it doesn't actually beat it unless 1v1.

 

Tyranitar doesn't kill reliably either of them unless count 64% accuracy over two turns with stone edge reliable.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-430 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower over 4 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 257-305 (77.1 - 91.5%) -- not a KO

 

Chandelure doesn't counter. Mixed mence doesn't beat chansey.  Gengar requires a very specific set of taunt and thunderbolt to beat both which is kind of silly. 

 

Basically out of that whole list I agree with Darmanitan and Arcanine.  While some of the setup sweepers technically might work are meant to be late game sweepers and wont go through any  even poorly designed team.  For example, there's not going to be two setup chances with cloyster and it is not an acceptable switch when both teams both still have 6 pokes left. 

 

 

Sure, its possible to beat, but its not fun to play against because the calcs are just awkward and often require a lot of turn stalling to win.  Again, eviolite chansey stall is originally why I quit competitive play on smogon to come here.  I had a great record against it, but every time I played a 300 turn game I wanted to throw my computer out the window after even if I won.  It was fun how games were fast based and offensive here for a while.  The eviolite chansey is probably going to destroy that even if conk stays but more so if it is banned. 

 

Link to comment
1 minute ago, Aard said:

So many of those can easily get thunder waved on the switch and be crippled for the rest of the game

Then after that some of your counters just flat out lose even if they work against blissey.

Heal Bell. 

 

1 minute ago, Aard said:

4 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 328-386 (45.9 - 54%)

4 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 238-282 (33.9 - 40.1%) 

 

Taunt or Work Up Hydreigon beats them.

 

 

1 minute ago, Aard said:

Reuniclus doesn't counter.  Actualyl a very good example of why chansey is more broken than blissey.

 

+6 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 552-649 (78.6 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 756-889 (105.8 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Sure if you let it get up to +6 it can kill chansey, but chansey can switch on any turn and force some tunrs to be recovery through seismic toss so it doesn't actually beat it unless 1v1.

 

First sentence made me chuckle when you later point you "Chansey can just switch out". Yes, that literally is the definition of a counter: That you force a Pokemon to switch out due to better position. Also nothing has a fun time switching in for Reuniclus, at least reliably.

 

 

1 minute ago, Aard said:

 

Tyranitar doesn't kill reliably either of them unless count 64% accuracy over two turns with stone edge reliable.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-430 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower over 4 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 257-305 (77.1 - 91.5%) -- not a KO

 

Tyranitar is unreliable sure, I'll give you that one, but Life Orb with Fire Punch/Flamethrower and Superpower has an edge on both.

 

1 minute ago, Aard said:

 

Chandelure doesn't counter.

 

Sub Calm Mind. Have fun against it.

 

1 minute ago, Aard said:

Mixed mence doesn't beat chansey. 

DD Does though. Paralyze could be annoying though, sure.

 

1 minute ago, Aard said:

Gengar requires a very specific set of taunt and thunderbolt to beat both which is kind of silly. 

How is that silly? Thunderbolt is like the most important coverage move for Gengar after Shadow Ball and Focus Blast. And what's wrong using Taunt or Sub as a 4th move? (Sub only causes a stall down but hey, Chansey is losing PP)

 

 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Aerun said:

Lacks a reliable recovery and its HA, it also gets easily pursuit trapped

Since Pachima would rather be passive aggressive rather than informing you, Mummy is its only ability and even if it had a HA it'd rather use Mummy to punish Conk's Guts abuse.

 

15 minutes ago, Aard said:

So many of those can easily get thunder waved on the switch and be crippled for the rest of the game. 

 

Twave is really uncommon after the nerf, getting T-Waved means some Volcs can just set up on your face and you'd need a lot of full paras to even beat 1v1.

Quote

 

Then after that some of your counters just flat out lose even if they work against blissey.

4 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 328-386 (45.9 - 54%)

4 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 238-282 (33.9 - 40.1%) 

 

Taunt set beats most Chanseys and Blisseys, has an easier time vs Chansey though due to lack of lefties.

 

Quote

 

Reuniclus doesn't counter.  Actualyl a very good example of why chansey is more broken than blissey.

 

+6 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 552-649 (78.6 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 756-889 (105.8 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

1 hour ago, Aerun said:

Lacks a reliable recovery and its HA, it also gets easily pursuit trapped

Since Pachima would rather be passive aggressive rather than informing you, Mummy is its only ability and even if it had a HA it'd rather use Mummy to punish Conk's Guts abuse.

 

15 minutes ago, Aard said:

So many of those can easily get thunder waved on the switch and be crippled for the rest of the game. 

 

Twave is really uncommon after the nerf, getting T-Waved means some Volcs can just set up on your face and you'd need a lot of full paras to even beat 1v1.

Quote

 

Then after that some of your counters just flat out lose even if they work against blissey.

4 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 328-386 (45.9 - 54%)

4 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 238-282 (33.9 - 40.1%) 

 

Taunt set beats most Chanseys and Blisseys, has an easier time vs Chansey though due to lack of lefties.

 

Quote

 

Reuniclus doesn't counter.  Actualyl a very good example of why chansey is more broken than blissey.

 

+6 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 552-649 (78.6 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 756-889 (105.8 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sure if you let it get up to +6 it can kill chansey, but chansey can switch on any turn and force some tunrs to be recovery through seismic toss so it doesn't actually beat it unless 1v1.

 

The point is it can beat Skarmsey cores usually ran on stall/defensive teams.

 

Quote

 

Tyranitar doesn't kill reliably either of them unless count 64% accuracy over two turns with stone edge reliable.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-430 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower over 4 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 257-305 (77.1 - 91.5%) -- not a KO

 

Still a counter.

 

Quote

Chandelure doesn't counter.

Sub CM does, you have to dodge a Toxic though and if people are running Shadow Ball Blissey it still loses if you CM twice.

 

Quote

Mixed mence doesn't beat chansey. 

True.

 

Quote

Gengar requires a very specific set of taunt and thunderbolt to beat both which is kind of silly. 

It's gimmicky but I've seen gimmicky stuff destroy stuff people overly rely on very easily.

 

Orange also forgot Togekiss who single handedly invalidates stall as a viable playstyle.

Edited by suigin
Link to comment
25 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Chandelure:

 

 

Sub Calm Mind. Have fun against it.

 

 

 

I think this one is probably the easiest one to understand my point about chansey.

 

Sure, you can switch chandelure and calm mind up and then barely 2hko it at +6.  Obviously we both agree it can kill chansey 1v1.

 

+6 252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 357-420 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

But there's more ifs there than you are letting on.  What if Chansey runs toxic?  Are you saying chandelure has to run calm mind and substitute at the price of coverage?

 

Then even if chansey has no thunderwave either and no way of touching chandelure, you still have to set up 6 times with calm mind.  Any one of those turns chansey can decide to switch and gain momentum.  It gets six opportunities to gain an advantage while you are stuck there setting up.  If both opponents are of equal strength that's essentially a 50/50 six times over a situation where chandelure is in the dodging positon and chansey is in the push the button to gain advantage situation.  Its not a favorable matchup and is an easy mode for people who are bad at prediction.  .5^6 is .015625  btw so its really not good odds for the chandelure to get it right in this situation.  There's a lot of variables here but I can't imagine that in an early game scenario the chandelure would be able to use this matchup to its advantage more than 1/3rd of the time.  Gaining advantage 1/3rd of the time isn't a hard counter in my opinion even if the 1v1 matchup is won.

 

After all of that calm mind chandelure is really only good against something like chansey.  If chansey weren't in the game most of those sets would be chaged to scarf or specs because those sets are more fun to use and more in the spirit of the game.

 

 

Basically, I think the 1v1 matchup is being valued too much when the reality of the game is gaining tempo off of switches and move predictions.  Slowing down the pace of turns to a crawl ruins what I personally find fun about this game.

 

 

I think at the very least we can all agree conkeldurr is a much more efficient counter to skarmbliss than chandelure.

 

 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 733-866 (104.1 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 211-250 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 157-187 (47.1 - 56.1%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 152-180 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(Not even sheer force added in)

Edited by Aard
Link to comment
3 minutes ago, Aard said:

I think this one is probably the easiest one to understand my point about chansey.

 

Sure, you can switch chandelure and calm mind up and then barely 2hko it at +6.

 

+6 252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 357-420 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

But there's more ifs there than you are letting on.  What if Chansey runs toxic?  Are you saying chandelure has to run calm mind and substitute at the price of coverage?

 

Then even if chansey has no thunderwave either and no way of touching chandelure, you still have to set up 6 times with calm mind.  Any one of those turns chansey can decide to switch and gain momentum.  It gets six opportunities to gain an advantage while you are stuck there setting up.  Its not a favorable matchup and is an easy mode for people who are bad at prediction. 

 

After all of that calm mind chandelure is really only good against something like chansey.  If chansey weren't in the game most of those sets would be chaged to scarf or specs because those sets are more fun to use and more in the spirit of the game.

 

 

Basically, I think the 1v1 matchup is being valued too much when the reality of the game is gaining tempo off of switches and move predictions.  Slowing down the pace of turns to a crawl ruins what I personally find fun about this game.

If Chansey switches out any of those turns good luck taking a hit from a 145 base spatk mon with at least one boost and behind a sub. Only TTar can reliably switch without much care (Assuming no Shadow Ball/HP Fighting(Not that good)) and force a switch without taking a hit.

Link to comment
20 minutes ago, suigin said:

If Chansey switches out any of those turns good luck taking a hit from a 145 base spatk mon with at least one boost and behind a sub. Only TTar can reliably switch without much care (Assuming no Shadow Ball/HP Fighting(Not that good)) and force a switch without taking a hit.

The thing is if chandelure uses calm mind instead of a 145 base spatk move then the damage is 0. 

 

The chandelure has to use 5-6 or these or wait for a crit to kill the chansey.  Anything faster that can ko can switch in on these turns. And the chandelure probably isn't going to be shadow balling the chansey randomly while setting up so the only real question is flamethrower or calm mind.  More than ttar can switch in with advantage against those odds.  Having to get in 5-6 setups before killing makes it a lot worse of an answer than conkeldurr which needs 0-1 setups beforei ts guaranteed to start blasting attack moves.

 

Edited by Aard
Link to comment
Just now, Aard said:

The thing is if chandelure uses calm mind instead of a 145 base spatk move then the damage is 0. 

 

The chandelure has to use 5-6 or these or wait for a crit to kill the chansey.  Anything faster that can ko can switch in on these turns. And the chandelure probably isn't going to be shadow balling the chansey randomly while setting up so the only real question is flamethrower or calm mind.  More than ttar can switch in with advantage against those odds.  Having to get in 5-6 setups before killing makes it a lot worse of an answer than conkeldurr which needs 0-1 setups beforei ts guaranteed to start blasting attack moves.

 

Here's what you do, you switch in, sub turn 1, opp will either switch out or try to toxic,  then attack or cm once depending on how the situation plays out. Is it worse than conk at dealing with Chansey? Yeah no shit, but it's a very viable answer that can beat both Chansey and Skarmory and that's what you were asking for at first.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, suigin said:

Here's what you do, you switch in, sub turn 1, opp will either switch out or try to toxic,  then attack or cm once depending on how the situation plays out. Is it worse than conk at dealing with Chansey? Yeah no shit, but it's a very viable answer that can beat both Chansey and Skarmory and that's what you were asking for at first.

We were talking about the consequences banning conkeldurr would have on chansey.  Someone claimed that itwould have no effect because there are plenty of other counters.  I pointed out that most of the other counters are inferior to conkeldurr because there are more turns for things to go wrong. 

Link to comment
7 hours ago, pachima said:

Very well, time for a little slight more serious input into conkeldurr

Why? Because 1- I believe banning it is not necessary, and 2- Because if you ban it, I am not in the mood to go back in time to gen3 and watch 300+ turns with chansey/blissey dominating the tier with 120 and 140% usage respectively.

Counters: As someone claimed in the past, We are in a tier that we can´t bring ourselves to think instinctively for counters because there might be none. (It seems this argument here is used randomly for some reason but whatever). Either way, there are still some counters for conkeldurr.  Cofagrigus is probably the best one unless your conkeldurr has 12 moves, 3 natures, and 2 items, one of which is iron ball for fling. The set that seems most threatening so far seems guts flame orb for obvious reasons. Life orb sheer force is great too but fails on that drain punch damage. Either way, conk needs a switch in in order to get the burn boost immediately for the next round. On that switch in, there will be damage involved (Yes, yes I know there might not be, you are the prediction master bla bla bla bla) But realistically, you should assume that. Then there is some risk indeed, but depending what is conkeldurr coming on, you can scout some of its moves (There is also protect that chansey/blissey can use to stack a little more that flame orb damage). Eventually, a conk that gets hazards, slight switch-in damage and flame orb damage is almost forced to predict well its next move, otherwise conkeldurr takes the risk of regaining no life and barely hurting the enemy. (Conk can´t regain health without drain punch anyway, so a good player (Yes, we are assuming both players are equal-skilled, which apprently is not true cuz conk predicts well every single turn) can force conk to drain punch eventually. But well, I admit, counters are little before you know the set, and few after you know.

Checks: Shut up Pachima (This will be quoted, or not because I now typed this). Conk has no counters, its busted, period.

Very well, I assume there are few checks to conkeldurr right? Let´s see:

Gengar (Substitute + psychic, or to a lower extent, sludge bomb can check and rack flame orb damage before it kills it - Gengar isnt likely to come in a 100% health conk anyway.

Starmie - Offensive starmie checks conk easily, and can even switch in on some predicted moves.

Dragonite - the rain abuser dragonite can check Conk as well, and since rain is so prominent nowadays, rain abuser dragonite is a force to be reckoned with.

Skarmory - Skarmory is half a counter actually that can force conk out even after switching in, but I will consider it just a check nevertheless. (Brave-bird variants ofc)

Kingdra - Actually, I have used bold kingdra, and that thing can counter conkeldurr. A Bulky modest kingdra can´t counter, but can check it pretty easily (Yes, it suffers high damage, but then you get to spam crits all day that are not easily stopped except by twin-cancer sisters)

Peliper - Offensive hurricane just shreds Conk. A more defensive one can also counterish non-tpunch sets, but a check nevertheless.

Salamence - Just needs some slight prior damage and it then can check with draco meteor. (Also has intimidate)

Metagross- Bold metagross counters Conk. I have used it countless times and it works. It gets wore down after a while, but whatever. Also stops scizors and whatever so its not specific to conk. Most metas still are able to check conk with either psychic or zen headbutt. (B-but my conkeldurr has 252 hp-atk-def and has bulk up all the time without losing coverage, so meta can´t check- Good for you)

Togekiss - Air slash, period.

Gliscor - Offensive Gliscor can acrobactics, period too.

Darmanitan - Unless conk is bulked up (Which doesnt seem to be the problem here) - Darmanitan can ohko with life orb/banded flare blitz.

Reuniclus - Also half a counter to all non-facade sets. Checks easily though (Even though psychic spam is not a good thing in this OU)

Chandelure - Overheat can ohko conk. Can also counter most versions, and can also scout some moves.

 

You need more: Slowbro, jellicent, cofagrigus, all can counter Conk - Jelli is the shakiest of them all, but whatever. Also they are all UU. There are more in NU, but those are irrelevant to discuss.

 

Also, just for fun. People claim conk is busted, broken, broken, op, and also even busted. Then I go see usage stats and find out Blissey is 2nd most used and ferro is 4th most used in this OU tier. Have fun!

 

49

Let's not assume running some specific mons that has little use on OU other than stopping Conkeldurr is a viable option.


I clearly stated those scenarios were not including predictions at all, you fling a random drain punch, opponent either lose a poke or it gets crippled so hard while Conkeldurr recovers most of the hp he paid as a price to switch-in, or send in your check/counter and Conkeldurr now knows what will come in next time you are in and when it's next time, it will have burn ready and it will most likely come in as a game-breaking revenge killer, this is not even a full prediction. If you refuse to bring your Conkeldurr check it's stats are high enough to punch holes through a lot of things even with it's coverage moves.

 

I don't know why you are assuming Conkeldurr stops Chansey family from dominating right now as from what I can see, every team has a Chansey or Blissey right now regardless of Conkeldurr's presence. But like any other non-broken powerful OU mon, you can define how to play around them with, moves, strategies or roles instead specific mons. Chansey can be shut down with knock-off/switcheroo/trick, It is very susceptible to taunt, can be pressured by any poison or steel type that has some form of recovery, can be torn apart or checked by any other fighting types or powerful physical attackers. Blissey shares similar vulnerabilities, with knock-off not being a crippling option but instead, it can be crushed by any physical moves, especially those from poison fighting or steel types or even pursuit users.

Let's review your "Checks" in more realistic scenarios. Since you claim every time somehow we assume perfectly done predictions, 252atk 252hp 252def, and 6 moves. I'm clearly stating here,

All calculations here are made using the most commonly used Conkeldurr,
128HP/252ATK/128SPDEF Adamant Nature

Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Thunder Punch/Bulk Up

Flame Orb + Guts


Gengar - If Gengar isn't likely to come in a 100% health Conkeldurr, it means your team has lost 1-2 mons so far and Conkeldurr is most likely back to near 100% hp because of that anyways. UNLESS you run multiple counters just for Conkeldurr, which obviously sounds the alarm for something is horribly unbalanced anyways.

 

Starmie - For Starmie to check Conkeldurr, it gotta come in as a revenge killer, again at this point, you lost a mon in your team, Conk is probably back to near full HP because of that, and you gained momentum at cost of a mon by forcing Conkeldurr out. This doesn't sound healthy to me. Even if Starmie trainer predicts properly, Starmie will get holes in it. Conkeldurr is still at a state that it's able to fight and Starmie trainer is in a state where you can not switch in Starmie anymore. Conkeldurr will recover decent HP next time it's around as your effective check is no longer an option and battle is over.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 63-75 (46.6 - 55.5%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO(16 - 19.1% recovered)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 33-40 (24.4 - 29.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

 

Dragonite - Since Bulk Up is a mainstream move, it really has to be considered here, if the two go into a Bulk Up/Dragon Dance fest, Conkeldurr wins with a terrifying boost and recover back to near full health. If it doesn't have Bulk Up, it would work well, as you get a free dragon dance from it. It still should be noted that by checking a non-Bulk Up Conkeldurr with this, Conkeldurr still recovers more damage than it took from burn effect. Conkeldurr is still not stopped.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 57-68 (34.3 - 40.9%)(14.5 - 17.3% recovered)

You hit once to whatever switches into you and you gotta call Dragonite back giving the momentum back to the opponent. Dragonite becomes unusable at that point other than checking Conkeldurr 2 more times. If it stays to a point where it is crippled enough for Conkeldurr to deal with or gets KO'd, the battle is over.

 

Skarmory
When you switch in Skarmory you heal Conkeldurr immediately a bit for burn compensation.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 64-76 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery(16.3 - 19.3% recovered)
At this point, if you decide to Brave Bird, Conkeldurr would be more than happy to Drain Punch you.

0- Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 108-128 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage(20.7 - 24.5% recoil damage)

At this stage, you damaged Conkeldurr for somewhere between 48% - 61% (including burn damage and drain punch recovery)

And your Conkeldurr check is out of play now. Either has to switch out or get KO'ed to Mach Punch and battle is over there. Please note that during any stage of this, Roost is not usable as Skarmory is faster than Conkeldurr and when it loses Flying type, results are devastating.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 128-152 (74.4 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(32.6 - 38.7% recovered)

 

Kingdra - There isn't any scenario where any mainstream Kingdra or Sniper Kingdra can switch-in to and set up on Conkeldurr. The only option is to fully invest in defensive stats which goes out of the realistic scope of our current OU.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 117-138 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(29.8 - 35.2% recovered)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 63-75 (42 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

The only realistic option would be coming in as a revenge killer during rain. Then again, every time both Kingdra and rain is not active, you gotta lose a mon in order to check Conkeldurr.

 

Pelipper - 99% of the Pelippers out there are used as a lead. So it is revealed at the start of the battle, making it more susceptible to t-punch predictions BUT since you complain too much about us considering predictions when you do it yourself, let's assume there is no prediction at all lol. You bring Pelipper on the face of Conkeldurr, it will take the regular Drain Punch to the face, compensate for burn damage. Next time when Conkeldurr is around, expect a thunder punch because if you don't switch out your active pokemon will get severely crippled by its raw power. This is basically how an average Conkeldurr is played around. Didn't even bother calculating as bulkiest of bulky bulk Pelipper can't take a thunder punch from Conkeldurr.

 

Salamence - This is a very solid check, and the reason Ice Punch is the 2nd most used coverage move. It gains free momentum every time opposing Conkeldurr is on the field.

-1 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 45-53 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO(11.4 - 13.5% recovered)

Conkeldurr compensates for burn damage as usual. The key point here is, both Conkeldurr and Salamence becomes unusable now. Should your Salamence get crippled to a point to a level where Conkeldurr can deal with it or get KO'd, the battle is over at that point.

 

Metagross - I don't remember seeing a Bold Metagross around. Your switch-ins will just heal Conkeldurr.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross: 67-81 (35.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(17 - 20.6% recovered)

you can use this Metagross only once or twice to check Conkeldurr. Once Conkeldurr switches back with more hp than it had, there is no way a bold meta like this can cause any kind of pressure to other things. But I guess your Metagross has 252hp 252spatk, 252def, 252speed so it should be fine ^.^ (sorry had to do it when you mentioned those EVs lol)

Without defensive investment, Bold Metagross is abused as a Super Potion after the first check.

 

Togekiss

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 117-138 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(29.8 - 35.2% recovered)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 63-75 (32.8 - 39%) -- 6.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Period.

Any kind of prior damage renders Togekiss unable to switch in, also it's abused by Conkeldurr as a Super Potion on switch-in. One time check only, even if it manages to Roost and get a few leftovers ticks it won't recover enough to switch into a Drain Punch next time.

 

Gliscor - Probably one of the most effective switch-ins too, if your team can afford having an offensive Gliscor, instead a Hazard/Knock Off Gliscor, which seems more popular.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gliscor: 46-54 (30.6 - 36%) -- 52.7% chance to 3HKO(11.7 - 13.7% recovered)

Burn damage is compensated as usual, Becomes a "both Gliscor and Conkeldurr cannot be used" scenario just like other effective checks. If Gliscor falls, the battle is immediately over.

 

Darmanitan - Everything goes for Starmie, goes here too except Darmanitan has a huge risk of OHKO if it decides to switch-in instead revenge killing.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darmanitan: 177-208 (98.3 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO(40.8 - 48.4% recovered)

 

Reuniclus - Same situation with most other effective switch-ins

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 50-59 (23 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery(12.7 - 15% recovered)

Burn damage is compensated as usual and both Reuniclus and Conkeldurr gets locked out of the game because if Reuniclus falls or gets crippled, the battle is instantly over.

 

Chandelure - Becomes a Conkeldurr favored gamble, the only situation where It's not a win or draw for Conkeldurr and Conkeldurr can actually lose. But still,

If Conkeldurr wins the gamble;

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 81-96 (60 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Massive damage.

If Chandelure wins the gamble;

12% burn damage + momentum.

Odds are always in favor of Conkeldurr.

Link to comment

I also want to add, I really lack time to investigate every single mon solution from now on, I'll refrain from that. Conkeldurr lacks a strategic answer and only names of specific mons are used as a solution. If somehow those names are removed from the battle it has a battle deciding potential. I'm not claiming it can 1v5 every time, even tho sometimes it can, but it can clear enough mons or cause enough sweeping potential to a point where an equally skilled player has no way to win without heavy RNG support.

When you look at Conkeldurr, you see many qualities, it's a wall, it's a tank, it's a status absorber, it's a sweeper, it's a revenge killer, within our OU meta it's even a wallbreaker... and it shifts through those roles throughout the battle depending on it's remaining hp, and remaining mons on opposing team. Aside from not having a specific answer with moves, strategies, and roles, Conkeldurr can have a balanced teammate roster of 5, consisting of 1 supportive mon and 2 walls, 2 sweepers. you would feel like you are actually battling 2 different teams against such a team.

In a fair environment, it's a good thing to counter a mon and force it to switch out. You gain momentum there, but Conkeldurr almost being a team on its own, you just keep delaying the inevitable. As soon as your check goes out, it will start looking for opportunities to switch back in safely and you'll either have to gamble your ghosts if you have any or take a huge damage on your Conkeldurr check once again. Your team is worried to use obvious status moves, you are worried to bring in physical damage dealers, it's even worrying that if you get checked while you switch out, Conkeldurr may come in. It's a constant pressure and every move you make becomes a risk. In such conditions, opposing mistakes will give you slight advantages while your mistakes will most likely cause Conkeldurr to end the battle. Even if you play everything correct, you'll have to deal with Conkeldurr you kept forcing out all the time. 

 

I really believe none of those are healthy outside of Uber tier. As I mentioned I will not continue to debate about specific mons that can handle Conkeldurr here, almost all names that are able to handle Conkeldurr are already discussed. 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
9 hours ago, Aard said:

We were talking about the consequences banning conkeldurr would have on chansey.  Someone claimed that itwould have no effect because there are plenty of other counters.  I pointed out that most of the other counters are inferior to conkeldurr because there are more turns for things to go wrong. 

The initial argument from me was that coming up with counters to Chansey/Blissey is notably easier than coming up with counters to Conkeldurr - therefor keeping Conkeldurr in OU just to counter Chansey isn't necessary. I didn't say there no effect, no one said that.

 

Then you decided to bring up Skarmory for whatever reason but I wanted to still take up your little challenge to demonstrate how easy it is exactly to beat SkarmBliss core with our current OUs. Then suddenly you're moving the goalposts by saying "nuh, that is too unconventional way to beat just Chansey and Skarmory" which basically negates the whole point of initial discussion you made, which was just demonstrate what Pokemon can beat SkarmBliss.

Link to comment
9 hours ago, PrincessDia said:

Dragonite - Since Bulk Up is a mainstream move, it really has to be considered here, if the two go into a Bulk Up/Dragon Dance fest, Conkeldurr wins with a terrifying boost and recover back to near full health. If it doesn't have Bulk Up, it would work well, as you get a free dragon dance from it. It still should be noted that by checking a non-Bulk Up Conkeldurr with this, Conkeldurr still recovers more damage than it took from burn effect. Conkeldurr is still not stopped.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 57-68 (34.3 - 40.9%)(14.5 - 17.3% recovered)

You hit once to whatever switches into you and you gotta call Dragonite back giving the momentum back to the opponent. Dragonite becomes unusable at that point other than checking Conkeldurr 2 more times. If it stays to a point where it is crippled enough for Conkeldurr to deal with or gets KO'd, the battle is over.

Not to undermine your argument or anything, but I think the allure of Dragonite is to throw off a hurricane which can scare Conkeldurr  off usually. That being said, theres no way I'd ever make that hard switch unless I had life insurance or something when that juicy ice punch or stone edge comes around next time.

 

Link to comment
1 minute ago, KOHHuiXIN said:

Not to undermine your argument or anything, but I think the allure of Dragonite is to throw off a hurricane which can scare Conkeldurr  off usually. That being said, theres no way I'd ever make that hard switch unless I had life insurance or something when that juicy ice punch or stone edge comes around next time.

 

Sorry, I was too overwhelmed with information at that point and I was a bit too sleepy. A rain Dragonite would most likely do that of course.
But still, I really don't like to consider it a 1v1 situation as Conkeldurr pressure persists through the whole battle, the worst case would be both mons getting locked out of play at that point.

 

Conkeldurr side would avoid sending Conkeldurr in as it would bait Dragonite out and Dragonite side would avoid risking Dragonite if it's their Conkeldurr check because if Dragonite is down, the battle is over. It's the draw scenario for "Either Conkeldurr wins or it's a draw" gambit.

 

(I said I'm assuming our Conkeldurr has a Tpunch and Bulk Up because people keep saying we are assuming it has 6 moves even tho all the coverage moves are pretty common like I mentioned in my previous posts)

Link to comment
17 hours ago, Lazaaro said:

Conkeldurr can just switch out until those pokes die, 

 

Conkeldurr has 13 effective checks and some other more shaky ones. If the other 5 members of your team allow you to counter every single one of those 13 checks all the time, either you are a genius or your opponent is an idiot.

First, I realize people are just assuming 100% they can counter whatever pokemon comes in front of conkeldurr all the time, so conkeldurr can come in over and over again. This is far from the truth, there are at least 13 great checks (IN OU), some other shaky checks, and even other checks under lower tiers. You can´t just assume you can counter every single one of those Pokemons every time because that won´t happen too often. Most likely, one of them (or several even) may find his way through the opponent team and make it unable to switch in anymore, and therefore making Conk lose its ability to come in over and over again.

Second, the sole assumption people make of countering everything everywhere proves how stale this game has become. People don´t think anymore, they only care about countering countering countering. For god sake, this is a discussion about Conkeldurr, not a discussion about who helps conkeldurr countering all mons conk can´t beat, which are many as I said. If everything could be countered 100%, where would be the fun on that?

Link to comment
7 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

The initial argument from me was that coming up with counters to Chansey/Blissey is notably easier than coming up with counters to Conkeldurr - therefor keeping Conkeldurr in OU just to counter Chansey isn't necessary. I didn't say there no effect, no one said that.

 

Then you decided to bring up Skarmory for whatever reason but I wanted to still take up your little challenge to demonstrate how easy it is exactly to beat SkarmBliss core with our current OUs. Then suddenly you're moving the goalposts by saying "nuh, that is too unconventional way to beat just Chansey and Skarmory" which basically negates the whole point of initial discussion you made, which was just demonstrate what Pokemon can beat SkarmBliss.

It is exponentially easier to kill conkeldurr than chansey.  Counters that take 10 turns to work are far from easy where as killing conkeldurr is pretty much just predicting what move he will use which is simple.  Sometimes the game is about outpredicting your opponent and you beat conkeldurr every time if you do that.  All you need is two cnadidate switches out of a list of about 20 mons.  With chansey stall teams, sometimes your team just isn't equipped to deal with the specific team they brought and its a loss from turn 1.  In a game where people scout each other to get an advantage and build up differing resources over time, that is broken.  Chansey is just the word cancer misspelled and it is exactly what it will be for this game.

 

People think in terms of counters and checks too much.  People don't play this game to get into hour long matches that are theoretically won or lost from turn 1 with very little opportunity to insert clever prediction.  Things like conkeldurr keep the game exciting regardless of how many counters they have.  If you switch Dragonite into ice punch then the opponent outplayed you.  If you switch it into drain punch and then get a turn to use a powerful attack of your own, you outplayed them.  That's how the game should be.

 

I'd bet the people wanting conkeldurr gone are the ones with more mons who play the game through excessive scouting.  Conk relies that you play the game in the moment instead of crushing your opponent on the vast pool of boxed mons you have.  I honestly get the impression a lot of people here quit competitive play on the simulators because they weren't very good at predicting and wanted a more reliable way to win games.  A way to minimize risk and feel like a good battler.   Right now offensive play threatens that because you can't always win by inserting a cookiecutter stallteam and click buttons randomly.  Anyway, that's who I think the two groups of people really are on this.  I can't remember a base 40 speed pokemon ever being put into discussion for ban anywhere because it was too hard to predict.   I don't think that has ever happened.  

Edited by Aard
Link to comment

Some ideas for chansey/skarm comb.

-Gengar: Knock off combined with destiny bond ; Chansey switches in knock off bye bye eviolite.

-Tyranitar/Salamence: Some dudes run DD on both combined with Fireblast. Yesterday i saw DD,Roost,Fireblast,Dragonclaw on mence.

-another dude if you predict it well. Wynaut with eviolite. Predict the softboiled and switch him in. Encore him dead.After he got no Softboiled switch.Wynaut got some nice stats with eviolite. for status run safeguard.i think you can even run tickle.

 

Link to comment
28 minutes ago, Aard said:

I'd bet the people wanting conkeldurr gone are the ones with more mons who play the game through excessive scouting.  Conk relies that you play the game in the moment instead of crushing your opponent on the vast pool of boxed mons you have.

what? 

Just curious, you're the same guy that says scizor threatens chandelure with pursuit right?

Link to comment
7 minutes ago, razimove said:

what? 

Just curious, you're the same guy that says scizor threatens chandelure with pursuit right?

I don't remember saying that.  I'm the guy that said cloyster is too much for uu and everyone laughed at me but then two months later its ou.  I guess choice specs locked chandelure would be threatened by pursuit though and its pretty easy to figure out if something is choice locked.  So it is true if they have a scizor and you have a choiced chandelure you can't blindly lock into shadow ball or energy ball.

Edited by Aard
Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.