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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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2 hours ago, pachima said:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Emolga: 62-73 (38.2 - 45%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
lame emolga

man please dont use cb bug bite....

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7 hours ago, pachima said:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Emolga: 62-73 (38.2 - 45%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
lame emolga

Doesn't outspeed so all you accomplish by doing that is risking getting para for no reason.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/14/2017 at 7:39 AM, Munya said:
  • You may want to provide damage calculations to strengthen your argument, this can be done here. Please remember to select the SM tab. 
  • It would be beneficial to provide a clear reason why you feel this Pokemon needs to be discussed. For example, do you believe it falls under the Uber characteristic? The defensive characteristic? Ect....
1

lol... I'm not even sure if I have to strengthen my argument with those...

I can't help but question...
Why Conkeldurr is in OU?

What we have here is a slow but bulky pokemon. We have seen similar things before, but there was a way to play around them most of the time... with new toys such as flame orbs around... I've never seen a bulky sweeper causing so much pressure and having so little options to stop it... let's review the basics;

  • Starts around 300+ base attack @ Level 50 without any setup with Guts.
  • A life-draining STAB move, a priority move and a rich pool of coverage moves.
  • Ability to deal with many walls due to considerable sustain, wide coverage and not being affected by crippling moves of walls. Basically, the majority of the tier is not switchable into it without getting crippled heavily.
  • Unable to be crippled with status effects due having a burn on it all the time.
  • Errr... Trick Room lead along with Conkeldurr?... Let's not get into that... you got my point... had to mention it, sorry
  • Can set up for greater glory if an opportunity is given if it runs bulk up

I don't claim to be very knowledgeable about current OU stuff but it feels like all in one package for me.

Most intimidate users in the tier are physical attackers, you can't really do much to him by intimidating because you risk a bulk up and it will be more annoying after it drains your miserable hp.

Being the only reliable option to deal with Conkeldurr, heavy special sweepers are mostly unable to switch into Conkeldurr, they will most likely get OHKO'ed or crippled to a point of getting Mach Punched on next turn. If you decide to attempt a revenge kill on it, almost every team has a reliable special wall anyways, it will wait until you switch into something else to claim it's next victim because anything special walls can't deal with, Conkeldurr can switch into. Should you encounter any exceptions to that rule preventing you to 2v6, you have 4 more unnecessary space for some extra pokemon anyways.

I'm aware that there are some mons to check Conkeldurr in the tier and some Conkeldurr fans may use them in its defense but I kinda think the pressure it puts both offensively and defensively is too much for the tier. If having a few checks is enough, we could just allow Dugtrio and Woobuffet as well because they also have some checks and ways to play around their mechanics. It's about how much you have to sacrifice to deal with a single mon and the pressure it causes.

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6 hours ago, PrincessDia said:

lol... I'm not even sure if I have to strengthen my argument with those...

I can't help but question...
Why Conkeldurr is in OU?

What we have here is a slow but bulky pokemon. We have seen similar things before, but there was a way to play around them most of the time... with new toys such as flame orbs around... I've never seen a bulky sweeper causing so much pressure and having so little options to stop it... let's review the basics;

  • Starts around 300+ base attack @ Level 50 without any setup with Guts.
  • A life-draining STAB move, a priority move and a rich pool of coverage moves.
  • Ability to deal with many walls due to considerable sustain, wide coverage and not being affected by crippling moves of walls. Basically, the majority of the tier is not switchable into it without getting crippled heavily.
  • Unable to be crippled with status effects due having a burn on it all the time.
  • Errr... Trick Room lead along with Conkeldurr?... Let's not get into that... you got my point... had to mention it, sorry
  • Can set up for greater glory if an opportunity is given if it runs bulk up

I don't claim to be very knowledgeable about current OU stuff but it feels like all in one package for me.

Most intimidate users in the tier are physical attackers, you can't really do much to him by intimidating because you risk a bulk up and it will be more annoying after it drains your miserable hp.

Being the only reliable option to deal with Conkeldurr, heavy special sweepers are mostly unable to switch into Conkeldurr, they will most likely get OHKO'ed or crippled to a point of getting Mach Punched on next turn. If you decide to attempt a revenge kill on it, almost every team has a reliable special wall anyways, it will wait until you switch into something else to claim it's next victim because anything special walls can't deal with, Conkeldurr can switch into. Should you encounter any exceptions to that rule preventing you to 2v6, you have 4 more unnecessary space for some extra pokemon anyways.

I'm aware that there are some mons to check Conkeldurr in the tier and some Conkeldurr fans may use them in its defense but I kinda think the pressure it puts both offensively and defensively is too much for the tier. If having a few checks is enough, we could just allow Dugtrio and Woobuffet as well because they also have some checks and ways to play around their mechanics. It's about how much you have to sacrifice to deal with a single mon and the pressure it causes.

Cofagrigus now is a pretty okish check and reuniclus is still reuniclus, I do agree conkel is ridiculous rn tho

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6 minutes ago, razimove said:

Cofagrigus now is a pretty okish check and reuniclus is still reuniclus, I do agree conkel is ridiculous rn tho

Reun takes ~40% from sheer force boosted tpunch, it’s not as reliable as it once was 

Edited by Zymogen
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24 minutes ago, razimove said:

and guts facade +1 is near 1hitko, that's the one that really makes me scratch my head. 

Tough to run Facade on it along with bulkup. You either ditch coverage or you ditch priority, or bulk up, because...

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 120-142 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Reuni is okay-ish, Cofag is a hard counter as it disables it's ability and Cofag is generally a very underrated yet a decent pokemon in our OU metagame (disabling ability is huge) but Cofag is the only hard counter for Conk that we have. Additionally, remember- Cofag is vulnerable to all forms of hazards, pursuit trapping and has no reliable recovery.

7 hours ago, PrincessDia said:

If having a few checks is enough, we could just allow Dugtrio and Woobuffet as well because they also have some checks and ways to play around their mechanics. It's about how much you have to sacrifice to deal with a single mon and the pressure it causes.

They have no checks and no counters. Check is something that can switch into this pokemon and while taking some damage, has the means to scare it away or KO. Counter is a poke that is able to switch, take anything the opposing poke can throw at it and KO it back. Both of the mentioned pokemons prevent switching. These pokes just trap your pokemon and kill. Period. Dugtrio is imo actually much more broken than Wobbu but w/e. You have raised a valid concern regarding Conkeldurr and I share your point of view but let's not go into drastic examples of pokes more broken than Fred's sleeping schedule

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38 minutes ago, Aerun said:

LF Latios/as, celebi, mew, zapdos so we get more options and more diversity for conkeldurr

Unfortunately, I don't think they will help that much, lemme elaborate.

 

1. Why Conk was not broken in B/W meta?

 

a) Legendaries and some hidden abilities. Aerun fairly mentioned Latis, Celebi, Mew, Zapdos. Cresselia would be a very hard counter, we would also grab a Regenerator Slowbro and a possible check in Tornadus, especially with Defiant and Prankster. Other than that, there was a huge amount of pokes (legendaries, eheh) that might not be an outright counter or check but are able to hit Conk for a reasonable amount of damage (Keldeo, Garchomp, Kyu-B for example) and some hidden abilities that would make otherwise unviable pokes visit OU much more often (Alakazam, Espeon). Also Poison Heal Gliscor.

 

b) PERMANENT WEATHER. Don't forget, B/W was literally weather wars- Conkeldurr struggled to switch on rain-boosted Scalds, Hydro pumps, Surfs, Hurricanes and the responding Sun-boosted moves.

 

c) B/W still had the most broken move of all, Baton Pass, and Conk struggled against BP chains.

 

d) B/W's metagame was much more different from ours. You will see a huge amount of power creeps like Terrakion, Keldeo, Garchomp and so on, which can 2hko Conk on switch-in. Our metagame tends to use massive amount of walls or very bulky, slow mons. Which is, paradise for a slow Conk, allowing it to set up some bulk ups and start killing with Mach.

 

With these in mind, Conk has much less to worry about when movesetting itself (no checks/ counters which I mentioned), has much more switch ins due to lack of permanent weather and thus more occasions to straight beat up your pokes.

 

Looks like an offensive uber for me, even without it's CB Iron Fist set.

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These facade, bulk up, drain punch, mach punch, thunder punch, ice punch conkeldurrs surely look troublesome.

On another note, rocky helmet tentacruel ruins conk´s longevity after they switch on a predicted drain punch. Coverage issues means conk can´t hit either gliscor, salamence, gyarados at the same time as well as Volcarona  and starmie.  If one slaps flame body (EDIT: flame orb lol) on conk, chances are its hp is always not full, so stuff like gengar, chandelure, peliper, bla bla bla can check it quite easily. They dont fear mach punch too.

 

Out of OU, swalot also full counters standard conkeldurr (Unless earthquake, which would limit even more its coverage). Same for Wynaut.

All this without mentioning Reuniclus. So, Conk surely is a threatening mon but I fail to see where it is uber offensive.

 

EDIT: forgot togekiss too. Can check conk pretty easily unless you for some dumb reason let it set up like Hell.

 

Edited by pachima
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47 minutes ago, pachima said:

On another note, rocky helmet tentacruel ruins conk´s longevity after they switch on a predicted drain punch.

And flash fire rapidash can switch into a predicted flare blitz from Darmanitan. Shame it gets oneshoted by Superpower or Rock Slide. The rocky helmet tenta is one of the most stupid arguments you could use Pachi... if you misspredict and Conk uses facade or thunderpunch, your tenta is either dead or completely crippled and useless while Conk is gonna take only burn damage (from flame orb) and rocky helmet's chip. And you lose a poke.

 

49 minutes ago, pachima said:

Coverage issues means conk can´t hit either gliscor, salamence, gyarados at the same time as well as Volcarona  and starmie.

Coverage issues mean that it can reliably run pretty much any move capable of killing any of the mons you mentioned. Also flame orb set with Drain/ Mach/ Ice Punches and Facade deals damage to any switch you mentioned (some even getting killed), leaving only Chandelure which is getting raped by rocks, chip damage, is vulnerable to any hazards and pursuit. And that conk 2shots Reuni. 2shots your Swalot too, though Swalot is another really stupid argument and I probably should leave it without any comments.

 

Bringing an argument about Swalot and Tenta only shows how overpowered this poke is, if I have to really reach so deep into the anus of pokemons to actually have a 100% reliable counter for it that doesn't get pursuit trapped or worn down easily.

 

Togekiss also can only check Conk, it cannot directly switch into it unless it bulk ups. The only universe in which Toge would switch on Conk is gen6+ when it would have it's fairy typing.

 

Conk is busted, period.

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3 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

And flash fire rapidash can switch into a predicted flare blitz from Darmanitan. Shame it gets oneshoted by Superpower or Rock Slide. The rocky helmet tenta is one of the most stupid arguments you could use Pachi... if you misspredict and Conk uses facade or thunderpunch, your tenta is either dead or completely crippled and useless while Conk is gonna take only burn damage (from flame orb) and rocky helmet's chip. And you lose a poke.

 

6

This is not true at all. If conk switches, lets say, into a seismic toss chansey, get rocked on switch and get burned after that turn, (Let´s even not say there is sand on field) would you really use thunderpunch on this chansey instead of regaining back that health that you can´t regain otherwise? But no, let´s even say you are able to fire off that predicted thunderpunch ( Don´t get me started on facade, its even worse). Now what? Tenta comes, takes thunderpunch, almost dies, but Conk finishes his turn with like 40% health. Then, either tenta forces conk out and grabs its chance to spam some hazards, or try to scald something, or conk has to sac another dose of its hp to mach punch. After burn, rocks, 2x rocky helmet damages, even if Conk predicts thunderpunch well, it leaves the battlefield with a broken ankle and a blind eye(aka red red hp). (Therefore, tenta kinda did its job). On the other hand, if tenta switches on drain punch, then conk can say good bye and releases himself from the trainer that used it.

And btw, sometimes conk has to switch in on something way less soft than seismic toss chansey.

 

It´s not a surefire counter, ofc not. But it pretty much removes away what, imo, makes conk so strong in this meta, which is that heal it can pull off as it spam hard damage.

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1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

 

d) B/W's metagame was much more different from ours. You will see a huge amount of power creeps like Terrakion, Keldeo, Garchomp and so on, which can 2hko Conk on switch-in. Our metagame tends to use massive amount of walls or very bulky, slow mons. Which is, paradise for a slow Conk, allowing it to set up some bulk ups and start killing with Mach.

 

2

^ This, I was going to add to my post but I was too sleepy so I forgot. We lack a lot of mons and abilities compared to BW meta, making dealing with Conkeldurr extremely hard.

 

3 hours ago, RysPicz said:

They have no checks and no counters. Check is something that can switch into this pokemon and while taking some damage, has the means to scare it away or KO. Counter is a poke that is able to switch, take anything the opposing poke can throw at it and KO it back. Both of the mentioned pokemons prevent switching. These pokes just trap your pokemon and kill. Period. Dugtrio is imo actually much more broken than Wobbu but w/e. You have raised a valid concern regarding Conkeldurr and I share your point of view but let's not go into drastic examples of pokes more broken than Fred's sleeping schedule

4

Thanks for the reminding us of terminology... lol duh
Both yes and no, they have ways to play around them, I won't go into depths of this as it is discussed zillion times before and things would slide slightly off topic.
But hey, just like "Hey, Dugtrios are quite fine, you can just run a flying + levitate team and you won't be trapped! Easy!" sounding dumb and ridiculous, also reaching into depths of NU/UU just looking for some mons which effectively counters Conkeldurr or offering mon solutions which consist of 8% of current OU roster to handle Conkeldurr, sounds quite dumb and ridiculous to me.

I will remind again that I'm probably much less knowledgeable in this compared to most of you but I'll try to clarify my point with an example.


Let's take Volcarona, a terrifying sweeper who can take decent hits from special attacks just like Conkeldurr can take from physical attacks. When someone asks me, "Hey, how do you deal with Volcarona?" even tho there are many mons to name to deal with Volcarona and a dreaded Chansey family which almost everyone uses these days, my answer would be something like "Well, keeping stealth rocks on the field would cripple the thing heavily, also many priority moves can hurt it a lot..." blah blah blah you got it. The common answers for a regular OU mon would consist of moves, strategies or roles that can be used by many mons in different team setups.
But when someone asks, "Hey, how do you deal with Conkeldurr?" your only option would be naming some specific mons with certain abilities which were already done in this thread, such as Reuniculus, Tentacruel, Cofagrigus, etc. This is not something usable by many different teams or mons. It clearly states something is so strong that you need to keep someone responsible for handling that mon in case you see one on opposing team. And as if that is not enough, several of the mons named to deal with Conkeldurr would get quite crippled in the process or some of them even get KO'ed eventually trying to stop Conkeldurr, while Conkeldurr can sit on the bench with low hp to find opportunities for more Drain Punches to come back to life or revenge kill a few things with Mach Punch before the burn get him down.

So when solutions come down to a narrow pool of specific mons with certain abilities, you can't help but think the mon is probably too much for the tier...

 

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47 minutes ago, pachima said:

If conk is busted, I have no damn idea what the #!^? Hydreigon is.

Let's keep it pg pachi D:
Hydreigon, with Draco Meteor, was doing something similar to what Conkeldurr is doing right now, just using the move knowing someone will die or get hurt a lot in the process.
If you really want a clear comparison, with its current state, Hydreigon is mainly a sweeper who;

  • Starts with much less base offensive stat compared to Conkeldurr.
  • Vulnerable to all kinds of crippling status moves, unlike Conkeldurr.
  • Has less wall-breaking potential compared to Conkeldurr.
  • Has twice more type weaknesses to be used against it compared to Conkeldurr, and those types are generally more common than weaknesses Conkeldurr has.
  • Punishes you much less than Conkeldurr when you guess it's moveset wrong (and has much less viable movesets right now to guess from)

As a result of these, I'd say there is a big difference in potential pressure those two pokemon causes.

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I think for starters just open a thread dedicated for Conkeldurr discussion. I know bans from OU shouldn't be easy decisions but whether which side of the fence you lean on you have to agree that Conkeldurr is such a meta-defining force that if we get a green-light for bans in order to make the metagame better - Conkeldurr will be the first one to go. It's almost impossible to argue that Conkeldurr is not an offensive Uber. The amount of metagame it sweeps is just beyond ridiculous.

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57 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

Let's keep it pg pachi D:
Hydreigon, with Draco Meteor, was doing something similar to what Conkeldurr is doing right now, just using the move knowing someone will die or get hurt a lot in the process.
If you really want a clear comparison, with its current state, Hydreigon is mainly a sweeper who;

  •  Starts with much less base offensive stat compared to Conkeldurr.
  • Vulnerable to all kinds of crippling status moves, unlike Conkeldurr.
  • Has less wall-breaking potential compared to Conkeldurr.
  • Has twice more type weaknesses to be used against it compared to Conkeldurr, and those types are generally more common than weaknesses Conkeldurr has.
  • Punishes you much less than Conkeldurr when you guess it's moveset wrong (and has much less viable movesets right now to guess from)

As a result of these, I'd say there is a big difference in potential pressure those two pokemon causes.

Although Hydreigon is a pretty strng monster, and in my opinion, also leaning towards being banned if he gets draco, at least him has a very viable wall, that has self recovery. 

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 102-121 (28.6 - 33.9%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO

__

6 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 124-146 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 90-107 (25.2 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

He has no way to get through chansey, unless maybe work out set, but the viability of that set rn it's not exactly great in my opinion. 

Conkel literally has the tools to break pretty much every wall now, other than cofagrigus, but even then, cofagrigus is weak to hazards and doenst have a reliable way to self recover other than rest/pain split.

Edited by razimove
typo
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25 minutes ago, razimove said:

Although Hydreigon is a pretty strng monster, and in my opinion, also leaning towards being banned if he gets draco, at least him has a very viable wall, that has self recovery. 

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 102-121 (28.6 - 33.9%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO

__

6 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 124-146 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 90-107 (25.2 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

He has no way to get through chansey, unless maybe work out set, but the viability of that set rn it's not exactly great in my opinion. 

Conkel literally has the tools to break pretty much every wall now, other than cofagrigus, but even then, cofagrigus is weak to hazards and doenst have a reliable way to self recover other than rest/pain split.

Well it's not healthy if you are forced to run either Chansey or Blissey to 'counter ' one mon. While Hydreigon also gets U-turn to keep momentum if the opponnent has one of the big blob's.

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2 minutes ago, Mnemosyne said:

Well it's not healthy if you are forced to run either Chansey or Blissey to 'counter ' one mon. While Hydreigon also gets U-turn to keep momentum if the opponnent has one of the big blob's.

not saying it is, but still a more reliable solution than any we currently have for conkel

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24 minutes ago, razimove said:

not saying it is, but still a more reliable solution than any we currently have for conkel

If you hate Conkel just bring a rain team with mixed Dragonite and Pelipper or bring a Chandelure or something.

 

I don't really think Conk is that problematic. 

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