NikhilR Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, FNTCZ said: If you dont have aura sphere forget about touching skarmory, tyranitar, excadrill. +2 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 134-158 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO +2 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 121-143 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO TTar can definitely survive a hit. I wouldn't call being able to 3hko a mon as "not being able to touch it." You can literally beat any mon in the game if you don't allow it to heal itself or attack you, by flinching it. Togekiss just doesn't need Aura Sphere, other than for Magnezone. EDIT: Togekiss is actually a good Conk check. Keep broken mons to beat broken mons you know :) Edited July 26, 2018 by NikhilR Zymogen 1 Link to comment
Zymogen Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, NikhilR said: +2 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 134-158 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO I didn't bother calcing this - interesting. If your Togekiss check is Excadrill, then your opponent can quite easily keep +0 slashing and running until Excadrill dies and proceed to sweep from there. This also plays into my comment about Togekiss being notoriously difficult to keep at a low enough HP without pursuit trapping, but even then.... 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 85-102 (44.2 - 53.1%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery Link to comment
Takens Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 2 hours ago, NikhilR said: +2 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 134-158 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO +2 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 121-143 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO TTar can definitely survive a hit. I wouldn't call being able to 3hko a mon as "not being able to touch it." You can literally beat any mon in the game if you don't allow it to heal itself or attack you, by flinching it. Togekiss just doesn't need Aura Sphere, other than for Magnezone. EDIT: Togekiss is actually a good Conk check. Keep broken mons to beat broken mons you know :) Ban them all kappa Link to comment
Kizhaz Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Togekiss Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 182-216 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery pachima and FNTCZ 2 Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 @Zymogen emolga > togekiss, emolga > scizor, emolga > ou. Link to comment
Kizhaz Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Now that we know our type charts perhaps we can go back to discussing Togekiss/whatever else Link to comment
RysPicz Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Another reason why we need full meta with Zapdos, Rotom... Spoiler and jirachi Spoiler god please no Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 1 minute ago, RysPicz said: Another reason why we need full meta with Zapdos, Rotom... Hide contents and jirachi Hide contents god please no and tran RysPicz 1 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 On a more serious note, I do not believe Togekiss is banworthy pokemon, not at all. Maybe we do not have things like Zapdos or Rotom which would stop it cold, but our meta has enough tools to bring it down. The most common sets I see this far are: Twave, Roost, Air Slash, Heal Bell Nasty Plot, Roost, Air Slash, Heal Bell Natures and EVspreads are various, dependant on team but Bold/ Calm/ Timid are the only viable ones so it's safe to assume the spread is 252 hp and def/sdef/speed dependant on nature (unless your IGN is Pachima and you run 252 satk 252 speed). Once Toge takes a hit it's easy to find out it's spread. Scarf Toge is pretty much never seen. At least I haven't seen one aside from I think one game I played against a certain someone in PSL, quite a few months ago, mainly because it's so much outclassed by the sets I mentioned above. It might be useful against offense, okay- but offense always packs a big bunch of priority, offense does not exist without Magnezone and it usually has enough checks or counters to destroy scarf toge anyway. Both of these sets have hard counter in Magnezone, which laughs at even +2 Air slash and threatens Toge with a STAB Tbolt. Excadrill deals with Togekiss as well, it can even set up SD on it. TTar was mentioned earlier. Jolteon is a great switch-in as well. Then, you have a lot of checks, offensive pokes which will outspeed and using their STABs/ coverage moves they can scare Toge right away (Starmie, Kabutops, Mienshao, Conk, Lucario, Pory-Z, Mamoswine (speed tie if jolly 252 but that's still okay, also Mamoswine is immune to twave) ). Note how all these pokes are offense. Sure, Toge plows through teams with 6 walls, but like I mentioned earlier: 10 hours ago, RysPicz said: If you carry a team consisting of 6 walls, you deserve to be killed by togekiss. Toge also isn't a good poke to bring against rain team, but most importantly- it has a stealth rock weakness, THE most common entry hazard in the game, so it's pretty much stripped to 75% HP every time it switches in. I'll make your calcs a bit more relevant Zymo: 10 hours ago, Zymogen said: Less effective revenge killers: 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 172-203 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 143-172 (74.4 - 89.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 142-168 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery For Calm Togekiss, effective revenge killers include: 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 234-276 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 300-354 (156.2 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 218-257 (113.5 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 152-182 (79.1 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery Less effective revenge killers: 252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 134-162 (69.7 - 84.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 150-178 (78.1 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery Now, which are the pokes you'd switch your Toge into except for choice-locked ground/ ghost/ bug attacks or just weak orb attacks which strike Toge's bulkier side? Mantine, Skarm, Bliss, Milotic, Hippo, MAYBE Gliscor and Ferrothorn. Guess what these pokes have in common? ;) I didn't list Reuni due to the fact that it quite often runs an offensive set which might even oneshot Toge. If you want to ban Togekiss right now, I don't even want to imagine the riot that will rise once Jirachi will be implemented in 20 years. DaftCoolio and suigin 2 Link to comment
pachima Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 2 hours ago, RysPicz said: I do not believe Togekiss is banworthy pokemon The most common sets I see this far are: Twave, Roost, Air Slash, Heal Bell Nasty Plot, Roost, Air Slash, Heal Bell With those sets, it sure is not. Now let me have a word with the guy who uses those sets please. Link to comment
RysPicz Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, pachima said: With those sets, it sure is not. Now let me have a word with the guy who uses those sets please. Pachi please don't tell me that specs/ scarf toge is the way to go Link to comment
pachima Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Just now, RysPicz said: Pachi please don't tell me that specs/ scarf toge is the way to go No but using nasty plot when the only damageable move is air slash is redundant, stupid, poop, illogical and also redundant Sorry but a nasty plot set has always or almost always aura sphere. Specs toge is bad, but scarf is much scarier than what you give it credit for. If you play a bulky offense team that is somewhat slow, scarf toge´s flinchs can literally eventually 6-0 with skillful flinches whatsoever. (Also there is no team preview, so saving it for whenever its counters are down isn´t that hard to do) Suneet 1 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, pachima said: No but using nasty plot when the only damageable move is air slash is redundant, stupid, poop, illogical and also redundant Sorry but a nasty plot set has always or almost always aura sphere. Specs toge is bad, but scarf is much scarier than what you give it credit for. If you play a bulky offense team that is somewhat slow, scarf toge´s flinchs can literally eventually 6-0 with skillful flinches whatsoever. (Also there is no team preview, so saving it for whenever its counters are down isn´t that hard to do) Plot set rarely has Aura Sphere. To put it on Toge, you need to ditch either Roost/ Softboil (lol) or Heal Bell- how will you deal with stall now, when you can get toxiced? Aura Sphere Toge isn't as good as mono attacker in doing what Toge is actually supposed to do- break stall. As for scarf toge, I don't think it's a set that appears problematic in OU, based on this discussion. Link to comment
pachima Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, RysPicz said: Plot set rarely has Aura Sphere. To put it on Toge, you need to ditch either Roost/ Softboil (lol) or Heal Bell- how will you deal with stall now, when you can get toxiced? Aura Sphere Toge isn't as good as mono attacker in doing what Toge is actually supposed to do- break stall. As for scarf toge, I don't think it's a set that appears problematic in OU, based on this discussion. My point is not nasty plot + aura sphere. It is nasty plot + air slash as the only damageable move. Aura sphere + air slash >> NP + Air slash. Let me see if I get this right: Random pleb but fucking damn original brain´s guy´s thinking: Let me see, air slash togekiss can flinch the whole tier it outspeeds. However, stuff like magnezone, tyranitar, excadrill, jolteon keeps switching against me and I have no other option than to switch. Right now I have roost heal bell and air slash, what else I can bring? - Suddenly glares at nasty plot as he scrolls down the moveset. His eyes glare in excitement, but his brain does not - Of course, Nasty plot is perfect, so I can flinch the whole tier it outspeeds and still get insta forced out if opponent sends stuff like magnezone, tyranitar, excadrill and jolteon. Nasty Plot it is. End of random pleb´s thought. Get the point? Edit: Thats why you should bring nasty plot only if you have aura sphere and air slash. NP with air slash alone is just bad. Edited July 27, 2018 by pachima Link to comment
RysPicz Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 1 minute ago, pachima said: My point is not nasty plot + aura sphere. It is nasty plot + air slash as the only damageable move. Aura sphere + air slash >> NP + Air slash. Let me see if I get this right: Random pleb but fucking damn original brain´s guy´s thinking: Let me see, air slash togekiss can flinch the whole tier it outspeeds. However, stuff like magnezone, tyranitar, excadrill, jolteon keeps switching against me and I have no other option than to switch. Right now I have roost heal bell and air slash, what else I can bring? - Suddenly glares at nasty plot as he scrolls down the moveset. His eyes glare in excitement, but his brain does not - Of course, Nasty plot is perfect, so I can flinch the whole tier it outspeeds and still get insta forced out if opponent sends stuff like magnezone, tyranitar, excadrill and jolteon. Nasty Plot it is. End of random pleb´s thought. Get the point? This is plain stupid. Either of these sets have different use and arguing that one is better than another makes no sense. Good luck breaking Blissey with non-boosted Air slash: 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 39-46 (10.7 - 12.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever Instead of using Blissey as setup bait: +6 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-180 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery Did you even read what I wrote? 9 minutes ago, RysPicz said: Aura Sphere Toge isn't as good as mono attacker in doing what Toge is actually supposed to do- break stall. And I haven't seen a stall team without Blissey yet. I got the point and I hope you got mine as well, especially because Aura Sphere while being defo a viable option, was considered only as an option and not a must on every set. What is really being discussed is Toge's ability to abuse Serene Grace to flinch the tier. Gunthug 1 Link to comment
pachima Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, RysPicz said: This is plain stupid. Either of these sets have different use and arguing that one is better than another makes no sense. Good luck breaking Blissey with non-boosted Air slash: 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 39-46 (10.7 - 12.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever Instead of using Blissey as setup bait: +6 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-180 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery Did you even read what I wrote? And I haven't seen a stall team without Blissey yet. I got the point and I hope you got mine as well, especially because Aura Sphere while being defo a viable option, was considered only as an option and not a must on every set. What is really being discussed is Toge's ability to abuse Serene Grace to flinch the tier. 1- I assume people are not to bad to the point where they let Blissey allow Toge to set up that badly. 2- Hitting magnezone, ttar, excadrill (The former 2 are used at wall teams) is way better than setting up on Blissey alone. 3- Yes, I get your point, but I can´t help but see people who use that set straightforwardly copied from Smogon without even realizing Smogon´s set is for UU and that mmo´s meta=/= smogon´s. 4- I do OU everyday, and never got trouble with air slash mono-attacker + NP, no matter what other 2 moves it possesses. 5- This is not gen3 mmo anymore. Pure stall teams aren´t that good compared to dem stellar days of gen 3. Yes, there are players that still want to capitalize on Stall. If you want that Togekiss to beat such players, that is fine, but overall it is a waste of a Togekiss. (Take a look at first 5 top OU mons, and you realize only 2 of which are effectively walls. One of those, Reuniclus, being used as an offensive thing as well.) Edited July 27, 2018 by pachima Link to comment
MaatthewMLG Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Just play sub blissey hehe ^-^ DaftCoolio 1 Link to comment
Zymogen Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, RysPicz said: On a more serious note, I do not believe Togekiss is banworthy pokemon, not at all. Maybe we do not have things like Zapdos or Rotom which would stop it cold, but our meta has enough tools to bring it down. The most common sets I see this far are: Twave, Roost, Air Slash, Heal Bell Nasty Plot, Roost, Air Slash, Heal Bell Natures and EVspreads are various, dependant on team but Bold/ Calm/ Timid are the only viable ones so it's safe to assume the spread is 252 hp and def/sdef/speed dependant on nature (unless your IGN is Pachima and you run 252 satk 252 speed). Once Toge takes a hit it's easy to find out it's spread. Scarf Toge is pretty much never seen. At least I haven't seen one aside from I think one game I played against a certain someone in PSL, quite a few months ago, mainly because it's so much outclassed by the sets I mentioned above. It might be useful against offense, okay- but offense always packs a big bunch of priority, offense does not exist without Magnezone and it usually has enough checks or counters to destroy scarf toge anyway. Both of these sets have hard counter in Magnezone, which laughs at even +2 Air slash and threatens Toge with a STAB Tbolt. Excadrill deals with Togekiss as well, it can even set up SD on it. TTar was mentioned earlier. Jolteon is a great switch-in as well Then, you have a lot of checks, offensive pokes which will outspeed and using their STABs/ coverage moves they can scare Toge right away (Starmie, Kabutops, Mienshao, Conk, Lucario, Pory-Z, Mamoswine (speed tie if jolly 252 but that's still okay, also Mamoswine is immune to twave). Ttar, Exca, Mag, Mamo: Agreed. Jolt somewhat agreed. No way in hell does Mienshao scare Togekiss unless it’s Calm (but let’s be honest Bold is probably the superior set). I don’t have the time to do the calcs but I would be very surprised if Mienshao OHKO’s with Stone Edge unless a crit, but it also fears a Thunder Wave because Mienshao prides itself on its speedy U-turns, and it also doesn’t want to take an Air Slash for obvious reasons. Lucario, the same - if it sets up in the face of Toge, it’s an easy Twave and its chances are scuppered. If it attacks, sure Toge would take some damage if it is Phys def (assuming NP Luc), but the eventuality is the same. Modest Specs P-Z barely catches the OHKO on even Phys def Toge. Conk? Are you sure? Offensive Star could cause problems, but again, one Twave and Toge can stall its Tbolt with Roost which is even more of an issue for Life Orb Starmie. If Kabutops is your Togekiss switch then you are going to have a hard time playing around Twaves, unless you can flawlessly catch it on double switches. The point I’m putting across is that the only walls in the meta capable of dealing with Togekiss are Blissey and Sassy Ttar, but only in certain circumstances. Twave Togekiss blows back most of the meta outside of these two, bar 4 offensive checks off the top of my head. E: this is rushed bc I’m getting ready for work but hopefully I’ve articulated my thoughts well enough Edited July 27, 2018 by Zymogen Link to comment
suigin Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 2 hours ago, pachima said: With those sets, it sure is not. Now let me have a word with the guy who uses those sets please. t. extremespeed cb togekiss oneshots jolteon guys RysPicz 1 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) Yeah I'm totally convinced, let's ban Togekiss because it can run calm, bold, timid natures with 252 hp, def, satk, sdef and speed EVs along with twave/ roost/ airslash/ heal bell/ aura sphere/ nasty plot moveset. Uber direct >:V If you're running a Toge with no speed investment, good luck staying on orbed Cloyster and you can add it to the list of checks along with SD Gliscor and CB Swampert which are immune to the twave you fear so much. Spoiler on a side note I dunno what I thought when I listed conk there, my bad there Edited July 27, 2018 by RysPicz I embarris. FNTCZ 1 Link to comment
Sashaolin Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 8 hours ago, pachima said: Also there is no team preview, so saving it for whenever its counters are down isn´t that hard to do) 8 hours ago, pachima said: 2- Hitting magnezone, ttar, excadrill (The former 2 are used at wall teams) is way better than setting up on Blissey alone. Zymogen 1 Link to comment
Maelstrom Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 On 7/26/2018 at 11:33 PM, gbwead said: @Zymogen emolga > togekiss, emolga > scizor, emolga > ou. What EV spread and nature would you use for this btw? I have been interested on Emolga for a while, but have not played for a good while (waiting for the update while doing other stuff) so I am not in good position to formulate and figure stuff by myself. Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 4 hours ago, Maelstrom said: What EV spread and nature would you use for this btw? I have been interested on Emolga for a while, but have not played for a good while (waiting for the update while doing other stuff) so I am not in good position to formulate and figure stuff by myself. You need to have a defensive nature with 252 hp 252 def in order to switch on Scizor. Maelstrom 1 Link to comment
Maelstrom Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 16 hours ago, gbwead said: You need to have a defensive nature with 252 hp 252 def in order to switch on Scizor. Thank you very much! Link to comment
pachima Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 19 hours ago, gbwead said: You need to have a defensive nature with 252 hp 252 def in order to switch on Scizor. 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Emolga: 62-73 (38.2 - 45%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery lame emolga Link to comment
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