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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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7 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Have you considered Haze Mantine, Brave Bird Mandibuzz or Tentacruel Toxic? I heard they also work relatively well.

mmmm i havent considered mantine or tentacruel, is a good idea. Thanks you!

Im not sure if i´ll try mandibuzz because of the fear of get burnt and the hp rock.

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58 minutes ago, soyhector said:

mmmm i havent considered mantine or tentacruel, is a good idea. Thanks you!

Im not sure if i´ll try mandibuzz because of the fear of get burnt and the hp rock.

You do realize HP rock deals less than a fire blast, and around the same as fiery dance. You do also realize that a burn is a 10% chance, and that is counting you're gonna be using fire blast and not fiery dance? And by the time you get burned from flame body, volcarona would already be taken care of, while buzz can still stay somewhat relevant, even though it's not the best thing to use vs volc

Oh and sure, so I don't JUST sound passive aggressive and allow mods to actually have a job, Imma just put some random ass totally related calcs:

 

252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- 25.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Rock vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 104-124 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- possible 5HKO

0 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 258-306 (82.9 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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21 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

You do realize HP rock deals less than a fire blast, and around the same as fiery dance. You do also realize that a burn is a 10% chance, and that is counting you're gonna be using fire blast and not fiery dance? And by the time you get burned from flame body, volcarona would already be taken care of, while buzz can still stay somewhat relevant, even though it's not the best thing to use vs volc

Oh and sure, so I don't JUST sound passive aggressive and allow mods to actually have a job, Imma just put some random ass totally related calcs:

 

252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- 25.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Rock vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 104-124 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- possible 5HKO

0 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 258-306 (82.9 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

He fears burn from flame body not from fire blast.

 

I don't think Volcarona deserves a ban at all, or even discussion- it's vulnerable to all forms of entry hazards, has a super nasty stealth rock weakness (x4 ffs), it underperforms under rain, easily killed back by a well-timed Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet murders it usually (since it comes out from Azu or Tops). On the defensive side, specially defensive Tyranitar still eats it even after it has boosted itself, defensive Gyara also screws it even if it has HP Rock. Jellicent is the most reliable counter currently imo, massive 100/100 bulk combined with water STAB, access to instant recovery and so on. Also even while resisted, it still takes quite a bit from Scizor's Bullet Punch.

 

Sure, it is currently one of the top tier pokes as we do not have legendaries like Heatran or Keldeo to screw it over (or eviolite for Chansey) but it still has it's hard counters in the defensive side (jellicent, defensive gyara, sdef ttar) and offensive (any aqua jet poke, faster scarf users such as Salamence or Mienshao) and it really needs support or otherwise it will get it's HP stripped to 50% each time it switches in (which is, once).

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2 hours ago, Spaintakula said:

You do realize HP rock deals less than a fire blast, and around the same as fiery dance. You do also realize that a burn is a 10% chance, and that is counting you're gonna be using fire blast and not fiery dance? And by the time you get burned from flame body, volcarona would already be taken care of, while buzz can still stay somewhat relevant, even though it's not the best thing to use vs volc

Oh and sure, so I don't JUST sound passive aggressive and allow mods to actually have a job, Imma just put some random ass totally related calcs:

 

252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- 25.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Rock vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 104-124 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- possible 5HKO

0 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 258-306 (82.9 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Like RysPicz said i was talking about flame body, wich has 30% chance to get burn + my bad luck=120% chance.

Just take a moment to think that mandibuzz has only 65 atack stat base, if you get burnt you´ll do a pitiful damage, also you´ll have recoil from brave bird and the status damage. You neither pay attention that fiery dance has 50% chance to boost sp atack (and sometimes looks like 100%). Also some people use Bold Volcarona with roost.

 

Ps: your calcs take relevance only in perfect conditions of predictions and 0% bad rng. In case you put Mandibuzz 1 turn after Volcarona surelly it will have used quiver dance.

Edited by soyhector
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Just now, RysPicz said:

He fears burn from flame body not from fire blast.

 

I don't think Volcarona deserves a ban at all, or even discussion- it's vulnerable to all forms of entry hazards, has a super nasty stealth rock weakness (x4 ffs), it underperforms under rain, easily killed back by a well-timed Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet murders it usually (since it comes out from Azu or Tops). On the defensive side, specially defensive Tyranitar still eats it even after it has boosted itself, defensive Gyara also screws it even if it has HP Rock. Jellicent is the most reliable counter currently imo, massive 100/100 bulk combined with water STAB, access to instant recovery and so on. Also even while resisted, it still takes quite a bit from Scizor's Bullet Punch.

 

Sure, it is currently one of the top tier pokes as we do not have legendaries like Heatran or Keldeo to screw it over (or eviolite for Chansey) but it still has it's hard counters in the defensive side (jellicent, defensive gyara, sdef ttar) and offensive (any aqua jet poke, faster scarf users such as Salamence or Mienshao) and it really needs support or otherwise it will get it's HP stripped to 50% each time it switches in (which is, once).

 

Just now, soyhector said:

Like RysPicz said i was talking about flame body, wich has 30% chance to get burn + my bad luck=120% chance.

Just take a moment to think that mandibuzz has only 65 atack stat base, if you get burnt you´ll do a pitiful damage, also you´ll have recoil from brave bird and the status damage. You neither pay attention that fiery dance has 50% chance to boost sp atack (and sometimes looks like 100%). Also some people use Bold Volcarona with roost.

 

45 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

You do realize HP rock deals less than a fire blast, and around the same as fiery dance. You do also realize that a burn is a 10% chance, and that is counting you're gonna be using fire blast and not fiery dance? And by the time you get burned from flame body, volcarona would already be taken care of, while buzz can still stay somewhat relevant, even though it's not the best thing to use vs volc

Oh and sure, so I don't JUST sound passive aggressive and allow mods to actually have a job, Imma just put some random ass totally related calcs:

 

252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- 25.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Rock vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 104-124 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- possible 5HKO

0 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 258-306 (82.9 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

He did address the flame body part, but just later on. 

 

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23 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

it underperforms under rain

ehh I mean, normal sets sure, but hurricane can be a thing? Not sure.

On everything else, I agree, I definitely don't see her being a broken pokemon. Really strong? Sure, hazards completely nulify it, toxic blissey also nulifies it. Banded Dnite is a reliable way to finish a >80% volc
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 108-128 (67.5 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

mantine deals well with her, especially with Haze. Mandibuzz deals well... anything with aqua jet deals well, wall ttar deals well, gyarados deals but is a big if, HP rock hurts gyarados heavily, it's not a safe switch in ever. 

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3 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Bug Buzz + Fire STAB + HP Ice/ Rock/ Giga Drain is pretty much always the set on QD + 3 moves Volc

I see it more as: Bug Buzz/Giga Drain + Fire STAB + HP Ice/ Rock. I think a lot of players run Giga Drain and HP Rock together. They struggle a little bit more against Ttar and Hydreigon tho, but have an easier time against Blissey and Jellicent.

 

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25 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I see it more as: Bug Buzz/Giga Drain + Fire STAB + HP Ice/ Rock. I think a lot of players run Giga Drain and HP Rock together. They struggle a little bit more against Ttar and Hydreigon tho, but have an easier time against Blissey and Jellicent.

 

Yeah generally combination of with 3 out of those 5 moves is what one needs to be prepared for :p I wonder when/ if we'll start seeing some Psychic when people will start running Tentacruel for this

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1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

They do not run Hurricane, like, ever. Bug Buzz + Fire STAB + HP Ice/ Rock/ Giga Drain is pretty much always the set on QD + 3 moves Volc

Yeah tbh I rarely even see HP ice, it's mostly rock when I see hidden power. Saw a few running morning sun and some others running psychic, but yeah, HP rock or 3 + QD is most common at least in unrankeds/rankeds, can't speak much of tournaments yet.

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Just now, redspawn said:

Yeah tbh I rarely even see HP ice, it's mostly rock when I see hidden power. Saw a few running morning sun and some others running psychic, but yeah, HP rock or 3 + QD is most common at least in unrankeds/rankeds, can't speak much of tournaments yet.

Lmfaoo I saw those morning sun Volcaronas too, always makes me laugh when I see that it can run Roost

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14 hours ago, soyhector said:

Like RysPicz said i was talking about flame body, wich has 30% chance to get burn + my bad luck=120% chance.

Just take a moment to think that mandibuzz has only 65 atack stat base, if you get burnt you´ll do a pitiful damage, also you´ll have recoil from brave bird and the status damage. You neither pay attention that fiery dance has 50% chance to boost sp atack (and sometimes looks like 100%). Also some people use Bold Volcarona with roost.

 

Ps: your calcs take relevance only in perfect conditions of predictions and 0% bad rng. In case you put Mandibuzz 1 turn after Volcarona surelly it will have used quiver dance.

I mean, again, calcs are self-explanatory, only way the burn will matter is if they burn via Fire blast, because for you to be burned via flame body, you actually need to have contact first. Brave bird almost KO's with 0 investments, and if you do get burned, you're still in range to kill it afterwards. And if you fear roost versions, get toxic and outstall it with roost yourself.

Also, "my luck is shit so odds are it'll burn me 120% of the time" is not any kind of help in this matter.

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On 5/1/2018 at 12:52 PM, Spaintakula said:

I mean, again, calcs are self-explanatory, only way the burn will matter is if they burn via Fire blast, because for you to be burned via flame body, you actually need to have contact first. Brave bird almost KO's with 0 investments, and if you do get burned, you're still in range to kill it afterwards. And if you fear roost versions, get toxic and outstall it with roost yourself.

Also, "my luck is shit so odds are it'll burn me 120% of the time" is not any kind of help in this matter.

mmm.

Edited by soyhector
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I am actually quite surprised people see Wobuffet as a bigger issue than Dugtrio that is imo more devastating, especially with U turn and Volt Switch support that makes it easier for Dugtrio to come into play even without Focus Sash. 

 

9 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

btw, does shed shell works against it?

Yes, it should.

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Idk, I think Haxorus is a bit too much for our meta, at least for now. It can oneshot and 2shot everything at +1 DD and cannot be reliabily revenge killed

by ice priority since it doesn't have x4 ice weakness like the other DD dragons. Even though it seems to not have a diverse move pool as the other dragons,

it still has enough coverage.

 

just calcs:

 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 161-190 (88.9 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 156-185 (72.5 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 90-107 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 69-82 (40.3 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 90-107 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 126-150 (83.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (adamant banded mamoswine)

 

252+ Atk Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 146-174 (96.6 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (adamant scarfed weavile)

 

252+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haxorus: 204-242 (135 - 160.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (scarfed hydreigon)

 

252+ Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 168-200 (111.2 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (adamant scarfed salamence)

 

Seems like the best way to deal with it is with a faster dragon, lol.

 

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On 10.1.2018 at 12:25 PM, Maelstrom said:

Idk, I think Haxorus is a bit too much for our meta, at least for now. It can oneshot and 2shot everything at +1 DD and cannot be reliabily revenge killed

by ice priority since it doesn't have x4 ice weakness like the other DD dragons. Even though it seems to not have a diverse move pool as the other dragons,

it still has enough coverage.

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 109-133 (72.1 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 64-75 (42.3 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 63-75 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 56-67 (37 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 66-80 (43.7 - 52.9%) -- 21.9% chance to 2HKO
 
Quite opposite, Haxorus is arguably the easiest fast sweeper to revenge kill because its overall defenses are pretty awful. Just because it doesn't have 4x Ice weakness for Ice Shard isn't really an argument for hard revenge killing of a DD Haxorus because so many neutral attacks do so much damage to it as well. I didn't even need to put Choice Band to Scizor or Dragonite because anything in OU can hit Haxorus over 50% damage and each of these can easily finish Haxorus off. I'd argue that Dragon Dance isn't nowhere as near as good of a moveset in the OU tier as Swords Dance is. This is because as a Dragon Dancer, Haxorus is probably the worst late game sweeper of all Dragons and this is due to the low defenses Haxorus has. So many things can even kill it with neutral damage, so even getting a Dragon Dance off is very hard. And if it does, there's 5 very viable OU Pokemon that will take it down with priority as well as a possible Scarfer can do that as well.
 
The only thing Haxorus has going for it over other Dragons is the fact that is just shreds stall Pokemon to pieces with Swords Dance. However, the "balance" comes in that Haxorus is overall worse than the other Dragons and people have opted to use Salamence, Hydreigon and even Dragonite over Haxorus in most teams because their overall usefulness is bigger than Haxorus' ability to break stall teams, which is what Haxorus arguably does the best in OU. This is clearly evident that stall is not a dominant playstyle in OU and if Haxorus was highly used you could argue Haxorus is the reason but when it's barely even the 3rd most used Dragon, it's very hard to make that argument.

In short, I see nothing even remotely broken about Haxorus at least in the way the current OU metagame is structured. 
 
 
Edited by OrangeManiac
cuz reasons
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2 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 109-133 (72.1 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 64-75 (42.3 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 63-75 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 56-67 (37 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 66-80 (43.7 - 52.9%) -- 21.9% chance to 2HKO
 
Quite opposite, Haxorus is arguably the easiest fast sweeper to revenge kill because its overall defenses are pretty awful. Just because it doesn't have 4x Ice weakness for Ice Shard isn't really an argument for hard revenge killing of a DD Haxorus because so many neutral attacks do so much damage to it as well. I didn't even need to put Choice Band to Scizor or Dragonite because anything in OU can hit Haxorus over 50% damage and each of these can easily finish Haxorus off. I'd argue that Dragon Dance isn't nowhere as near as good of a moveset in the OU tier as Swords Dance is. This is because as a Dragon Dancer, Haxorus is probably the worst late game sweeper of all Dragons and this is due to the low defenses Haxorus has. So many things can even kill it with neutral damage, so even getting a Dragon Dance off is very hard. And if it does, there's 5 very viable OU Pokemon that will take it down with priority as well as a possible Scarfer can do that as well.
 
The only thing Haxorus has going for it over other Dragons is the fact that is just shreds stall Pokemon to pieces with Swords Dance. However, the "balance" comes in that Haxorus is overall worse than the other Dragons and people have opted to use Salamence, Hydreigon and even Dragonite over Haxorus in most teams because their overall usefulness is bigger than Haxorus' ability to break stall teams, which is what Haxorus arguably does the best in OU. This is clearly evident that stall is not a dominant playstyle in OU and if Haxorus was highly used you could argue Haxorus is the reason but when it's barely even the 3rd most used Dragon, it's very hard to make that argument.

In short, I see nothing even remotely broken about Haxorus at least in the way the current OU metagame is structured. 
 
 

At first I got confused, because Haxorus can OHKO most, if not all these pokemons you calced even at +0, but then I read the whole post and understand

the point is that it cannot setup safely and in most cases these said pokemons would just need to finish off an already heavily damaged haxorus.

 

I am convinced.

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Good. Now ban Hydreigon.

And no, I dont need any reasoning behind it. Any person with a damage calculator in hand realizes it just keks against everything while ohkoing/ 2hkoing them (Bar probs calm milotic which loses a lot of usefulness and still cant deal with some hydra sets)

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