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just have a UBER tier


fredrichnietze

Question

so after talking with some tier council and staff i learned of a plan for the future of the game. basically

"no ubers, everything that SHOULD belong in ubers is goign to get a nerf to keep it in ou. example would be changing say salamances base stats or they way a ability or move works for all pokemon because of one or two pokemon."

my suggestion is to scrap this idea and just do tier'ing the way we always have and have a ubers tier.

 

my reasoning,

one far reaching consequences. at the moment their are 9 ubers in pokemmo. 11 if you count mewtwo and rayquaza. the current plan for slamance is to nerf outrage for ALL 50 or so pokemon that can learn it all  across multiple tiers. this changes not just the one tier with the one pokemon but everything in every tier. many unintentional nerfs or buffs will be created by this ONE change upsetting the balance. gen 5 has 22 ubers if you count all the multi form pokes like arceus as a single uber. this will very significantly change the game from the original "balance" intended. we all know pokemon handhelds are not perfectly balanced. that is why we have tiers and tier councils int he first place. all of these changes will change the tiers, checks, and counters and then you will have to balance them again. but ubers arent allowed so MORE CHANGES. 

two learning curve. pokemon has a high learning curve. lots of people play pokemon as it is the highest gross'ing franchise and even if 1% bother to learn competitive thats still a lot of people. however with all these changes, pokemmo and black and white will be nothing alike. new players who learn here will google resources only to learn the wrong things. players who learned on showdown or whatever will come here and not understand what is going on and have to relearn everything from scratch, however with the bonus confusion of thinking they understand things that have been changed. this makes the already hard learning curve more difficult. new comp players might just decided that this is silly and go play showdown and not bother with pokemmo.

three cannon/tradition. similar to the competitive learning curve, but a bit different. the learning curve effects competitive players as casuals generally dont much to begin with. however they and others will see differences and think "this isnt right" and not know why it is like this. thats why we dont have create a pokemon shit. this is a pokemon game and it should follow pokemon mechanics as closely as possible. 

four you are making tier'ing much more difficult. for tier'ing their is a process. you have pokemon, you take usage stats and figure out what is and isnt OU then start banning things to ubers because invariably their are unbalanced things. for what i can only assume is do to a desire to get the tiers done quicker, the method is not being used this time. instead we have this arbitrary list made up by a handful of people. the problems with this is the complexity. no one person can hold in their head every possible use of 500+? 600+? pokemon with multiple ability's and hundreds of moves and items and builds. their are so many variables and things like "how common will X be?" are unknown. however this is a rabbit trail. on top of this added degree of difficulty with will make the process more faulty, we are changing the rules and mechanics on the fly to try to make things "not op". the problem with this is way back at #1 far reaching consequences. one little change changes hundreds of things and when you make a lot of changes all at once it becomes too much for anyone to KNOW what will happen for sure. this is going to have faults not because the tier council sucks or whatever but because too much is being asked of them. their are too many variables and possibility's to say what will or will not be broken when you add all these changes on top of the already difficult changes to tier'ing process. their will be things that are uber because their counters got nerfed and until we go live and test and find these things we wont know. then what? well MORE CHANGES and the process continues. the weeks become months and the months become years of changes to moves and ability's and mechanics. to try and prevent anything from being uber. and these changes lead to more things being uber as their counters get nerfed or somethign else gets buffed and unexpectedly a rarely used pokemon is now stupidly strong. 

 

having a ubers tier is the simplest way. yes some pokemon wont be usable in competitive play. this has always been this way. this will always be this way. their will always be pokemon that are either too strong or not strong enough to be used in a tier. trying to find the perfect solution for this is just going to create more problems. their is no perfect solution. going down the path of this folly will lead to a lot of dev time down the drain and a lot of people upset because the teirs are in chaos trying to get this sorted. every attempt to change the game to balance this will lead to more problems. their is no fix. pls dont so this.

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Just now, suigin said:

No, we were given the option but we opted to not do it since it'd be a clusterfuck and fairies wouldn't have any offensive moves anyways.

Thank you for this useful information. Part of the reason why I left Pokemon the franchise is not just because of YouTube, but it was also due to the Fairy type. I found that Fairies were a waste of my time and I really wish that Nintendo would not add another type.

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I know you are

11 hours ago, Darkshade said:

aiming for [...] PvE and PvP symmetry.

but imo there should be a clear cut line between those. They are two seperate entities and one shouldn't suffer from decisions made for the other.

6 hours ago, Gunthug said:

We have a unique opportunity here - the developers and those who help form the competitive metagame (not just the TC, but the community at large really) are linked and can work together to prevent some of those unsolvable problems from arising at all

 

yeah... if we're really that "linked and can work together" let us atleast vote.

Because it feels like this is going through without any chance for the opposition at the moment.

Especially because instead of us ("the community at large") providing usage for the tiering process the TC itself just went ahead and made a tier list without any actual data.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Linken said:

I know you are

but imo there should be a clear cut line between those. They are two seperate entities and one shouldn't suffer from decisions made for the other.

 

yeah... if we're really that "linked and can work together" let us atleast vote.

Because it feels like this is going through without any chance for the opposition at the moment.

Especially because instead of us ("the community at large") providing usage for the tiering process the TC itself just went ahead and made a tier list without any actual data.

 

 

 

Our lists will be 100% replaced by usage in no time 

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The problem comes from the fact that the Dragons (namely Salamence, Haxorus and Hydreigon and Dnite to lesser extent) aren't good just for the sake of having a Dragon-type but because of the total mixture of things Gamefreak gave them. Godly stats, insane movepool, great abilities, you name it. Even though I greatly agree with nerfing Outrage instead of touching Pokemon's base stats, this rises two questions in my opinion: Is it enough? And furthermore, does it make any actual sense?

 

First of all to think, is it enough: Well I'm just going to make a bold prediction and assume the Outrage nerf is not going to realistically hurt the Dragons much at all. They are still gonna remain ridiculously powerful. What I'm asking is that what did you consider doing if you still consider (some of) the Dragons to still be overpowered? What would be the next logical step?

 

And that kinda leads me to my next point, does it make any actual sense? Assuming the Dragons aren't still deemed nerfed enough for the metagame and needs further actions, does Outrage nerf make any actual sense? If you think of the move Outrage itself, it's quite a horrible move. Offensively Dragon is actually one of the worst typings out there. You will never see a Pokemon that is not a Dragon-type to use Outrage and the only reason why Dragons use it is the STAB. Dragon-type is not OP, Dragons are OP. And this is an important distinction to me for making the right balancing decisions.

 

At the same time, I'm all for the idea of trying to prevent anything to become Ubers. The problem is that the ways for that, well, none of them are exactly any good. Locking yourself out from the option of banning anything might lead to either a very bad metagame or trying to come anything to force metagame balance that doesn't make much practical sense.

 

However, I'll re-emphasize that if that Outrage nerf actually keeps the metagame balanced then I'm not complaining. I just don't think it will be enough.

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Why reduce the BP of a move for nerfing a single Pokemon? Doesn´t it make more sense to reduce this Pokemons attack stat by 10 then ?

Salamence is Uber already only in doubles seen. Or PVe so if PvE and PVP should be more the same i would work on making OP pokes OU viable again instead of nerfing all dragontypes in all tiers.

 

Becaue in relation a Salamence will keep it´s strength to other dragontypes. Other if you reduce its basestats, slightly until you found a balanced amount. I mean Salamence would still do its job in Doubles but can make its appearance in OU.

Blissey/Chansey could have reduced reduced hp or defense for example in Order to make them fitting to OU Strengths.

Edited by BudsBender
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17 minutes ago, BudsBender said:

Why reduce the BP of a move for nerfing a single Pokemon? Doesn´t it make more sense to reduce this Pokemons attack stat by 10 then ?

Salamence is Uber already only in doubles seen. Or PVe so if PvE and PVP should be more the same i would work on making OP pokes OU viable again instead of nerfing all dragontypes in all tiers.

 

Becaue in relation a Salamence will keep it´s strength to other dragontypes. Other if you reduce its basestats, slightly until you found a balanced amount. I mean Salamence would still do its job in Doubles but can make its appearance in OU.

Blissey/Chansey could have reduced reduced hp or defense for example in Order to make them fitting to OU Strengths.

It's not a single Pokemon. For some reason when I said "Stuff like Salamence" everyone read it as "To keep Salamence", dragons in general hit like a freight train with Outrage

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11 hours ago, fredrichnietze said:

TL:DR it''s a mess and i do not think i am conveying how much of a mess it will be but it is.

ok after talking this out with someone i found a better wya to convey how much of a mess this will be through an example. 

dugtrio was banned for being uber for trapping. without dugtrio snorlax and blissey lost one of their strongest trappers and eventually got banned as well. following this chansey went to ou from uu then got banned to ubers. porygon, umbreon, and miltank got moved to ou because the 3 best ou special walls disappeared but special attackers didnt stop being a thing. tentacruel got moved to ou to deal with ludicolo to a lesser extent but mostly venasaur who now is very common with no blissey, chansey, or snorlax sitting at the #3 most used pokemon in ou. now moving to UU, without tentacruel and the various special walls, meganium became more common as the strongest poison type is gone. pokemon like lapras, nidoqueen, and lanturn moved up in usage some from borderline nu others from nu. haunter and manetric with so many special walls gone got a lot more popular as nu is now special meta. crobat and qwilfish which were nu got moved up as now the #1 used physical wall meganium cant really do shit to them and gets shit upon by the poison types, but also because quite a few pokemon are gone like tenta which stood in their way. quagsire which was in nu ended up moving up aswell with all the nidos and manectrics and qwilfishes and such running around with no tenta or miltank to curse war against. in NU with the cause and effect becomes harder to trace because A im not tracing one line of cause and effect but dozens, and B i havent been following the tier all that closely. however their were a lot of changes as a result of this web of cause and effect. rip nu nidoqueen for example. the point is that ONE pokemon being removed had a massive effect on every tier. something something butterfly effect, and changing the game mechanics is a lot bigger then a butterfly. what is and isnt uber is subjective and entirely depends on the context of the other pokemon in the tier. in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. all of these many little changes to make a dozen or two pokemon not uber will make more pokemon uber as a result (tip of the ice berg ) and this will require more changes with will have more cause and effect changing the balance of power requiring more tier work. this is not a elegant solution. this is using a hammer to put in a screw. it might technically work and appear to work for a while but it's ugly, wont last, and will cause damage beneath the surface you cant readily see or predict. sorry this is such a big wall of text but im getting a weird glitch where pressing enter will delete a section of text as if it were highlighted and nothing i do will un highlight it.

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Yeah adding on to what suigin said, the outrage "nerf" (or really, lack of a buff) should help not only the super strong dragons stay somewhat manageable, but may also prevent lesser dragons like flygon and kingdra from getting too powerful as well. Now to credit oranges points, this is all speculation. It may not work. Our theory was, if it doesn't work, we can always buff outrage later - much easier than buffing it originally but then nerfing it later

 

@fred I stopped reading when you said dugtrio ban caused snorlax and blissey to be banned too 

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1 hour ago, Gunthug said:

Our theory was, if it doesn't work, we can always buff outrage later - much easier than buffing it originally but then nerfing it later

I mean, this is all fair enough.

 

I have to ask, though - and this is not in any way to discredit any of your current plans but just out of sheer curiosity - what other measures besides the Outrage nerf are there to keep the metagame balanced that you've discussed that could possibly be used to prevent things from getting to Ubers? (besides base stat nerf, which you don't seem to like and rightfully so) I think that's pretty relevant part of all this discussion revolving around having or not having Ubers tier.

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3 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

I mean, this is all fair enough.

 

I have to ask, though - and this is not in any way to discredit any of your current plans but just out of sheer curiosity - what other measures besides the Outrage nerf are there to keep the metagame balanced that you've discussed that could possibly be used to prevent things from getting to Ubers? (besides base stat nerf, which you don't seem to like and rightfully so) I think that's pretty relevant part of all this discussion revolving around having or not having Ubers tier.

For other stuff, a good example would be, say, removing Arena Trap from Dugtrio if it goes to Ubers again.

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We removed Speed Boost as Blaziken's HA, Moxie as Salamence's HA and Shadow Tag as Gothitelle's HA and I think that's pretty much it.

 

Quote

For other stuff, a good example would be, say, removing Arena Trap from Dugtrio if it goes to Ubers again.

I think he's asking what we applied already.

Edited by suigin
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1 hour ago, fredrichnietze said:

@gun i stopped reading when you stopped reading and now we have no communication. what a shame i wanted to send you nudes and dank memes. not mine ofc repost.

Ok so do you have a better example then as to why this is such a mess, maybe an example that doesn't rest on incorrect assumptions about ban chains?

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Just now, Senile said:

For other stuff, a good example would be, say, removing Arena Trap from Dugtrio if it goes to Ubers again.

Just to make clear: Arena Trap from Dugtrio or Arena Trap in general? Because if it's the first one seems like tiering is shifting into a complex ban favoring environment. Would it be just a Pokemon + ability or would you allow other kinds of complex bans to happen?

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Just now, OrangeManiac said:

Just to make clear: Arena Trap from Dugtrio or Arena Trap in general? Because if it's the first one seems like tiering is shifting into a complex ban favoring environment. Would it be just a Pokemon + ability or would you allow other kinds of complex bans to happen?

Probably Ban Dugtrio and then presumably in a later update it would have Arena Trap removed from it.

 

I guess you could call it a complex ban, but again, it's not a complex ban in the main reason we avoid them; It's not confusing or unnecessarily convoluted. Nobody is going to make their team and realize "ah shit, arena trap is banned on Dugtrio", because they'll never have gotten that far in the first place.

 

If by "Other kinds of complex bans" you mean, like, removing moves for a pokemon's movepool, idk, we'll see. That seems like a more likely option than changing base stats in my opinion.

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13 minutes ago, suigin said:

We removed Speed Boost as Blaziken's HA, Moxie as Salamence's HA and Shadow Tag as Gothitelle's HA and I think that's pretty much it.

 

I think he's asking what we applied already.

Could it be possible to give those mons different Hidden Abilities? 
For example Adaptability Blaziken

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1 minute ago, Senile said:

If by "Other kinds of complex bans" you mean, like, removing moves for a pokemon's movepool, idk, we'll see. That seems like a more likely option than changing base stats in my opinion.

If ever it gets to the point a move limiting ban or base stat change even comes into legitimate consideration, I'd hope you at least then would tell the staff that we just simply have to ban something. Outrage nerf and a possible ability ban from a Pokemon seem kinda fair enough and reasonable measures I guess but those ones would be just getting it too far.

 

Btw since staff seems to do this all for PvE balance or whatever, can't you just nerf the Dragons for whatever PvE features you in mind? Why does the competitive play have to be unnecessarily complexed like this when we all know the simplest and most effective way would be just having Ubers? It almost seems to me like the Tier Council isn't even favoring lots of ideas what the staff are imposing right now (from the tiers in the Unova launch to these gimmicks to prevent anything to be Ubers) and are just trying to come up with any arguments to support these ideas even if they don't exactly like that said idea? I don't know, it just seems that way to me.

 

But yeah. Dear staff, do whatever you like what comes to PvE. Nerf Salamence into base 60 attack all the way, all I care, just let competitive play be actually realistic Pokemon competitive play and don't impose all these ideas without actually having a reality check. Thanks.

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The point of tiering is to ensure a tier with much variation in build style.  Remember when chansey was the best avilable spec wall?  Then usage r8 rose to like 60%.  That is certainly not healthy.  The meta is going to become very stale very quickly with this "were too scared to ban" type of mentality.  People will just use whats "best".  Lets take a look at the mons that are even in "OU".  Lets start with walls since every team needs them.  Spec walls:  Chansey/Blissey, Jellicent? Tyran. + Sand???, Wobbu??????.  Cmon guys we have literally 0 options here.  Wobbu is a joke and un competitive,  if people start using it ppl will simply quit en masse.  Tyranitar is laughable to use as a dedicated spec wall because of typing and if they change the whether or it ends its over.  Jellicent sucks and is weak to 4 really common types... You know what this means right?  Players will be pushed into a position where Blissey is the only viable Special Wall.  This is absolutely awful.  We all thought chansey meta was bad, this will be much much worse.  Blissey will literally be on every single team.  No Bliss/chance?  Well prepare to have your team rekd by literally any sp atkr.  

 

So how are we gonna deal with Bliss then...?  Hmm if only there was a physically attacking pokemon that could also trap Blissey.... Hmmmm

Players will be forced to run Dugtrio because its fucking OP.

 

Awesome so how it is now 33% percent of your team is basically forced to be the same as everyone else.  And if you dont use these mons you will only suffer.

 

And we havent even gotten to both physical walls or any attackers you actually wanted to run.

 

For Phys walls the list is longer, steel types have high base Def, many resistances, etc.  Thing is ppl arent gonna run whacky wall Exca, Metagross, Magnezone.

List of Viable phyts walls:  Cloyster (outclassed), Ferrothorn (literally the best), Forretres, (outclassed), Skarm (eww)

Uh oh guys were facing a similar issue as to before:  Players are being pushed into a position where Ferrothorn is the best possible choice for them.

 

Ok so now 50% of your team is pretty much set in stone... I mean, everyone else is using whats best, and not using whats best will cause you to lose.... sooo.  You are practically forced to use these mons.

 

I would go on about the physical atkrs and spec atkrs etc but that can be easily understood and actually is much more open up to variation.  (Sort of)  You can see my basic tiering of the tier below.  Pretty much, pick from the S/A tier pool and choose synchronistic typings for the rest (1 mon kek).

 

 

Blissey -S

Breloom -B

Chandelure -B

Chansey -A

Cloyster -B

Conkeldurr -A

Dragonite -A

Dugtrio -S

Excadrill -A

Ferrothorn -S

Forretress -A

Gengar -B

Gyarados -B

Haxorus -A

Hydreigon -A

Jellicent -B

Kabutops -B

Kingdra -A

Lucario -S

Magnezone -A

Mamoswine -B

Metagross -A

Pelipper -B

Reuniclus -B

Salamence -S

Scizor -A

Skarmory -B

Starmie -B

Tyranitar -S

Volcarona -A

Wobbuffet - ???

 

 

Not having an Ubers tier is TM 06-TOXIC

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