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Proposed Temporary Update Tiers Discussion


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Not exactly sure why the Hidden Power is bringing so much debate here, to be honest. First of all, I'm not really buying into that Scizor + Ferrothorn argument because let's not assume they're in any way broken and if anything their longevity can be a blessing to our metagame that will have such tremendous firepower. Of course Ferrothorn will have a high usage because it's literally the only thing preventing the spam of physical moves. But is Ferrothorn itself a Pokemon you need to spend of hours of time to come up with a way to not let it fuck your team up? Of course not. Just because a Pokemon might (and will) have a high usage doesn't necessarily mean the Pokemon is a bad thing for the metagame. This also applies to Scizor - except to lesser extent - but having an offensive powerhouse that can serve as a defensive pivot to me is a blessing to the metagame.

 

Back to Hidden Power itself. I mean, it's really hard to make canon arguments here since the "static" power for Hidden Power is 60. But again, until Gen5 the power could have gone up to 70. I guess that leaves all up to what is the metagame effect on it. I kinda agree that Hidden Power should be rather a helpful niche rather than becoming this almost of a "hacking tool" for Pokemon to gain a coverage that wide that it makes no practical sense. But come on, it's only 10 power here and there - let's not get jimmies all too rustled about this one. I couldn't honestly care either way.

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Bringing up the signature move of zekrom as a coverage move is the most concerning of this all.

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"We dont want HP in everything" is terrible reasoning and ofc in the cases where there are new coverage moves (which are better than HP) players will chose the former, no need to nerf HP to force their hand.

HP is expensive and if its required players will spend good money breeding for it, but you need to make it desirable. With a 60 bp in the power creep that is about to hit us, many will just forget about HP and pick cheaper subpar coverage moves.

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Ok, finally at my PC so I can make a formal statement about this rather than piggy back on whatever post comes up. 

 

Like Orange said, I'm not entirely sure why you guys' have gotten so worked up about this but my initial statement was simple. If we're going to break canon, why not keep Hidden Power at a bp of 70, rather than setting it to 60 like the upper gens do. Darkshade has announced there will be changes to Pokemon in order to make them less "broken" and more "balanced", for reasons over my head. Something about PvP = PvE, Idk. But, it's a bit paradoxical to speculate nerfing Ubers, namely the dragons, and then to also nerf a move that helps check said pokemon. 

 

In the past, HP was based entirely on IVs just like the earlier gens. You literally had to breed for not only a specific HP, but also a specific power. It was terrible. It was then changed to a simple static power, which was initially set at 60. Players hated it because it just couldn't do the job it was supposed to, which was to patch up gaping holes in move sets to check powerful offensive and defensive pokemon. It was just too weak. So the devs listened to the players and bumped it to 70. We were all happy and it stayed that way for years. 

 

But now, a new gen is being introduced and the static HP is once again 60. Yes it's canon and yes it's fine because most pokemon have been given a ton more moves to patch up the holes they previously had, but honestly, the pokemon at the top of the food chain are still going to be things that are terrified of Hidden Power. Namely Dragon-types that are 4x resistant to Ice (Salamence, Dragonite, Flygon, and Garchomp) and then the Steel-types that are 4x resistant to Fire (Ferrothorn and Scizor). We all know how helpful Hidden Power is as a move and honestly it offers something to this game as an MMO, considering it's difficult to obtain and players need to "grind" to get it.

 

Now this is speculation and a possible straw man (glances at Gunthug), but weakening HP from 70 to 60 could result in a more narrowed and centralized metagame. Consider Jolteon, which arguably could have a niche in OU considering its speed, power, and access to Volt Switch. Unfortunately, by weakening Hidden Power you weaken Jolteon and decrease its viability because it just can't get the kills it previously could. With fewer viable Pokemon within a tier, usage narrows and we could end up with an unhealthy and stale metagame. Now I'm not saying this is going to happen, but I am saying it's likely that there will be fewer viable pokemon because HP is nerfed. 

 

252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 124-148 (74.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 144-172 (86.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 148-176 (87 - 103.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 172-204 (101.1 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Now most of us recognize that there are more coverage moves coming. Hell even Linoone gets Shadow Claw and Seed Bomb to cover up its weaknesses to Ghost and Rock-types, all while maintaining a weakness to Steel crap. There's the entire Fang series and then new priorities such as Ice Shard and Shadow Sneak. We've got Grass Knot and Focus Blast to add to the mix as well. Pokemon simply get better. So why not consider keeping HP at a bp of 70 rather than shutting it down on the spot?

 

I guess Roserade will appreciate weak HP once it gets access to Technician. 

 

 

Spoiler

I probably shouldn't have called Ferrothorn and Scizor "pseudo broken". They're both going to be very good, but I cannot predict whether they will be too powerful or not. I always place emphasis on the dramatic simply to make an impact with my statements. Unfortunately the emphasis sometimes gets drawn away from the primary point I'm trying to make. 

 

 
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@DoubleJ still on my phone so can't give a more thorough response but consider the effect something like stealth rock will have on the calcs you posted earlier. I truly think the hidden power nerf is justified simply by the power creep of the "natural" movesets" for every non. Pokes will be dealing mode damage, period, and chip damage via hazards will become a near constant. We no longer need hidden power to be the coverage bandaid (I know I keep saying this) it was when our movepool was so pathetically shallow 

 

Orange was 100% right that this is a minor issue but I do still think it's worth discussing. Note to self: don't try to pull up move examples from future gens late on a Friday night 

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7 hours ago, KoolT93 said:

@Darkshade explain pls

 

Nvm just forgot they gonna drop mence base stats so Hp still ko him, which makes more sense

I wonder where the hell people are pulling this misinformation from. I've seen like 4 people get things wrong. I'll do a Xatu here to clear things up

 

We're NOT removing the Uber tier forever.

We are adjusting the BP of some moves, the one that got hit the hardest was Outrage which was nerfed to keep things like Salamence, Haxorus, Dragonite from being too overwhelming since our goal is to keep as many things as possible from ending up in the Uber tier. Outrage not only was really really strong from a historical view point, but since we don't have powerful legendaries like Heatran and Jirachi, and since Outrage got an indirect buff due to the Confusion nerf, Dragons seemed to be way too much for MMO to handle and we want stuff like the previously mentioned Pokemon to have a shot at OU without a quickban.

If nothing ends up being too strong then, as a result we may end up without an Uber tier as a consequence, which is our ideal scenario, but we won't bend backwards in order to keep Uber from existing as a tier by keeping obviously broken stuff in OU.

 

Lowering stats, changing abilities and the implementation of the Fairy type were alternatives offered to us to keep as many Pokemon outside of Uber as possible, outside of the removal of certain Hidden Abilities on certain Pokemon (Moxie on Salamence, Speed Boost on Blaziken and Shadow Tag on Gothitelle) none of these were implemented.

 

Hidden Power is being nerfed so it's no longer a catch all move to fill holes in movepools and so people opt for using other moves.

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Let me get this straight. 

We will have more coverage moves (Looking at you fusion bolt), hence hidden power won´t be that needed (Since you already have more coverage moves), then if ppl wont need that much hidden power, it means its power should keep as it... Uh....Wait... So we will have more coverage moves, more coverage moves means less need for Hidden power (Glaciate> Hp ice for instance). Finally, less need for Hidden power means.... another nerf?

Legit.

Also, if we keep changing our meta to the standard one, we might start calling this game showdownmmo (Grind edition) 2.0, cause we will lose every unique strat we wouldn´t find anywhere else.

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1 hour ago, pachima said:

 

Also, if we keep changing our meta to the standard one, we might start calling this game showdownmmo (Grind edition) 2.0, cause we will lose every unique strat we wouldn´t find anywhere else.

This is such a terrible argument and I see it so often around these parts. Why is being unique such a sought after quality? If every single one of our pokes were forced to run splash for every single movealot, man we sure would be unique wouldn't we? No, metagames should be judged by their quality, not by what separates them from an established, successful template 

 

Plus, your claim is ridiculous. We are never going to lose our flexibility to use unique strategies seen in smogon metagames. Why? Because we have a huge disparity in which Pokemon are available. No legendaries, gen 4 staples, rotom means our meta will look muuuuuch different than gen 5. Same goes for updates to gen 6 mechanics like 5 turn weather...and hey, 60 base hidden power 

Edited by Gunthug
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1 hour ago, Gunthug said:

This is such a terrible argument and I see it so often around these parts. Why is being unique such a sought after quality? If every single one of our pokes were forced to run splash for every single movealot, man we sure would be unique wouldn't we? No, metagame should be judged by it's quality, not by what separates it from an established, successful template 

 

Plus, your claim is ridiculous. We are never going to lose our flexibility to use unique strategies seen in smogon metagame. Why? Because we have a huge disparity in which Pokemon are available. No lehendaries, gen 4 staples, rotom means our meta will look muuuuuch different than gen 5. Same goes for updates gen 6 mechanics like 5 turn weather...and hey, 60 base hidden power 

Its a shame we will have plans for all those in a soon tm future. Besides some gen7 abilities, lets see how that goes.

Also, we shouldnt seek uniqueness after quality, but when the first is clearly not harmed, then whynot? You can argue we won´t have a similar metagame soon, but if we keep with this, we will eventually.

Also. Quality? The so called splashable move named hidden power has a problem, which is not being that splashable at all. At the current gen, we got ourselves a 70 BP hidden power, yet, except for rare cases, the only case where you actually see hidden power being used is on mons that lack a coverage move and will use hidden power even if its power gets dropped to negative and kills the user instead (Jolteon, espeon, alakazam, venusaur, and not much else). Even those, getting the super ultra splashable Hidden power, are pretty much always locked to just one type, ice... ground... fire, and again not much else. So, the whole argument of splashable, while being true for showdown, it just isn´t here)

Now, we are getting ahead of a tier where there are more coverage moves. New coverage moves will overshadow earlier Hidden powers, hence nerfing it (But nah, lets nerf it even more, just because it looks right!)

Let´s look at our most used and splashable Hidden power of all times, Hidden power fire. It´s such splashable that like 4 or so in the whole OU tier use it effectively. This such splashable and much overly not so common type of hidden power, which will be used for the likes of ferro, metagross, skarmory, scizor, which will most likely be used in a rain team. Oh, did I forget? Rain will be a thing now. But yeah, let´s nerf Hidden power more so everytime I use hp fire on ferrothorn in rain, I can pray for it to miss so I won´t heal it.

Next one, grass. Oh yeah, the hidden power grass. Overshadowed by ice, but still a rather decent pick for some scenarios. Too bad, we will have drought solar beam, we will have grass knot, we will have energy ball (Yeah, let´s nerf it as well so people forget how bad it is already)

Hidden power fighting/Ground! That blasting alakazam, that needs hidden power ground to beat metagross and houndoom. It had no problem with 70 BP hidden powers, and in fact, ppl still used dooms/meta to check it. But there it comes Focus blast, completely nerfing Hidden power fight to hell t the point where no one can be sure whether it was still a thing or not. (Yeah, hidden power deffo needs a ban here)

Now my most favorite one. Hp ice!!! The still relevant hidden power, that survived all the natural nerfs its cousins suffered from the change of metagame. We are getting dragonites, salamences, hydreigons, haxorus, their childs, their kids, and their moms. Well, I guess we have an argument for dropping the power of hidden power? Right?

No, let´s nerf Hidden power so dragons become op, so we can not boost outrage to 120 power, because of a couple of mons, while fucking the other 50 (Srsly, who cares about them?)... Even better, Salamence is op, so we should nerf hp ice, and instead drop the base attack of it, cause much sense.

Remember when we used Hp ground for heatran? Good thing Heatran is not here so Hidden power will lose its use. Hence let´s nerf it even more.

Remember when we used Hp grass/ice for hippowdown? Good thing Hippowdown won´t be here for now, so Hidden power will lose its use. We all know there will be grass knot and energy ball, but who uses those when we will have splashable overnerfed hp grass? Nah man, let´s nerf it even more.

At the end of the day, I can see why you want to restore Hidden power´s power back to 60, but:

1- You are giving the wrong arguments.

2- This is not showdown, so the correct arguments are not so correct here.

3- 70 BP HP in the future metagame will be already nerfed compared to this metagame´s 70 BP HP, with such not being that broken or such splashable as you are trying to state.

Lastly, in gen5 Hidden power is 70 base power, and in gen7, despite being 60 BP, it gets a boost we won´t have for soon which consist in not needing particular 30s(most notably speed) to mess with the comp itself.

EDIT: All of this is not directed to you, but to everyone in general. Your quote just gave me right link for how do I see things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by pachima
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is there any safe switch ins for sd gliscor @flying gem besides bronzong and eviolite gligar? cause it looks like it hits uu like a truck. i guess sac to get rid of its gem is an option, but that doesnt sound right. since its uu theres gotta be stuff that handles it, so which mons are the chosen ones?

 

not meant as cynical as it may sound, curious question.

 

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 174-204 (112.2 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+1 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 188-224 (95.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 139-165 (84.7 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 208-246 (103.4 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 138-163 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 84-100 (43.7 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 181-216 (81.9 - 97.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 169-199 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 159-187 (92.4 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 192-226 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

offensive switches, who outspeed it may be an option, but it can scout switch ins with u-turn or just set up a sub and act accordingly. so how to handle this beast without running bronzong / eviolite gligar every game / are there mons which are viable in uu and resist ground and flying to take it on?

 

Edited by DrButler
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5 hours ago, DrButler said:

is there any safe switch ins for sd gliscor @flying gem besides bronzong and eviolite gligar? cause it looks like it hits uu like a truck. i guess sac to get rid of its gem is an option, but that doesnt sound right. since its uu theres gotta be stuff that handles it, so which mons are the chosen ones?

 

not meant as cynical as it may sound, curious question.

 

  Hide contents

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 174-204 (112.2 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+1 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 188-224 (95.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 139-165 (84.7 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 208-246 (103.4 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 138-163 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 84-100 (43.7 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 181-216 (81.9 - 97.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 169-199 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 159-187 (92.4 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 192-226 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

offensive switches, who outspeed it may be an option, but it can scout switch ins with u-turn or just set up a sub and act accordingly. so how to handle this beast without running bronzong / eviolite gligar every game / are there mons which are viable in uu and resist ground and flying to take it on?

 

 

lunatone can come in and has a very very low chance of dying with the second hit. need to hit the top .5% damage roll both attacks. and ice beam or recover luna. the problem is if luna recovers and gliscor uses SD luna dies. if luna has any damage at all that low low chance becomes much higher. 

 

that being said this looks very very strong on paper and kinda scary. 

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6 hours ago, DrButler said:

is there any safe switch ins for sd gliscor @flying gem besides bronzong and eviolite gligar? cause it looks like it hits uu like a truck. i guess sac to get rid of its gem is an option, but that doesnt sound right. since its uu theres gotta be stuff that handles it, so which mons are the chosen ones?

 

not meant as cynical as it may sound, curious question.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 174-204 (112.2 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+1 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 188-224 (95.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 139-165 (84.7 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 208-246 (103.4 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 138-163 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 84-100 (43.7 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 181-216 (81.9 - 97.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 169-199 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 159-187 (92.4 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 192-226 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

offensive switches, who outspeed it may be an option, but it can scout switch ins with u-turn or just set up a sub and act accordingly. so how to handle this beast without running bronzong / eviolite gligar every game / are there mons which are viable in uu and resist ground and flying to take it on?

 

That Gliscor seemed like too big of a momentum sink to be BL'd immediately but yeah it's fairly strong.

Porygon 2 does well vs it and if it blows its Acro Gem too early it loses a lot of wallbreaking power.

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2 minutes ago, suigin said:

That Gliscor seemed like too big of a momentum sink to be BL'd immediately but yeah it's fairly strong.

Porygon 2 does well vs it and if it blows its Acro Gem too early it loses a lot of wallbreaking power.

sub gains momentum on both defensive and offensive switch ins as long as it holds that gem. sitting behind that sub you are pretty much free to choose if you want to trade your item for a kill unless its bronzong, gligar, pory2 or you dont have hazards up. even without hazards it can just take a hit and 2hko quite a few of them. unless you run a healbeller or scouted the set you dont wanna send in eviolite pory2 or gligar either, since toxic gliscor renders them useless for the rest of the match.

 

without ice there also isnt much that can reliably revenge kill it. arca needs to win a speedtie or have to be max speed in the first place, adamant doom does 50% max, aero needs to be cb and aqua tail, ada scarf hera does 40% at max. so if it pulls off the item + 25% health for a mon trade it still has a chance of having offensive pressure going for it.

 

seems pretty monstrous.

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1 hour ago, DrButler said:

sub gains momentum on both defensive and offensive switch ins as long as it holds that gem. sitting behind that sub you are pretty much free to choose if you want to trade your item for a kill unless its bronzong, gligar, pory2 or you dont have hazards up. even without hazards it can just take a hit and 2hko quite a few of them. unless you run a healbeller or scouted the set you dont wanna send in eviolite pory2 or gligar either, since toxic gliscor renders them useless for the rest of the match.

 

without ice there also isnt much that can reliably revenge kill it. arca needs to win a speedtie or have to be max speed in the first place, adamant doom does 50% max, aero needs to be cb and aqua tail, ada scarf hera does 40% at max. so if it pulls off the item + 25% health for a mon trade it still has a chance of having offensive pressure going for it.

 

seems pretty monstrous.

ice shard exist so sacking a sub and possibly killing something is always a risk. doesnt matter how many sd's and agility's you have if a ice shard user pops in

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34 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

ice shard exist so sacking a sub and possibly killing something is always a risk. doesnt matter how many sd's and agility's you have if a ice shard user pops in

thats why i said things get complicated without ice.

 

what i dont like about that gliscor set is that it has good chances to trade an item and a few hp for a kill. the only downside i see so far is getting that gliscor running, since its not like it sets up a sub against that many pokes and that it falls off once the gem is gone, but if you use it wisely it just hurts. you could argue that ice easily revenge kills it, but you could also argue that scoring a kill and facing a pretty predictable play a turn later at the cost of an item is not too shabby.

 

 

Edited by DrButler
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3 hours ago, DrButler said:

sub gains momentum on both defensive and offensive switch ins as long as it holds that gem. sitting behind that sub you are pretty much free to choose if you want to trade your item for a kill unless its bronzong, gligar, pory2 or you dont have hazards up. even without hazards it can just take a hit and 2hko quite a few of them. unless you run a healbeller or scouted the set you dont wanna send in eviolite pory2 or gligar either, since toxic gliscor renders them useless for the rest of the match.

 

without ice there also isnt much that can reliably revenge kill it. arca needs to win a speedtie or have to be max speed in the first place, adamant doom does 50% max, aero needs to be cb and aqua tail, ada scarf hera does 40% at max. so if it pulls off the item + 25% health for a mon trade it still has a chance of having offensive pressure going for it.

 

seems pretty monstrous.

If he subs on a counter switch in then he lost 25% hp he won't regain ever again (that+ Rocks damage chipping it) unless he wants to sacrifice a moveslot for Roost and that'd mean either losing Quake or SD.

If he SDs while his sub is being broken then he'll die the following turn unless said counter is chipped enough.

Toxic Gliscor is good vs P2 and Gligar but they aren't really rendered useless by it., toxic also means he's completely hopeless vs other pokemon.

 

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