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Proposed Temporary Update Tiers Discussion


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14 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

what makes you say ferro and scizor are pseudo-broken?

 We're already predicting ferrothorn to have some of the highest usage we've ever seen, and we both know how good scizor is, especially in a meta without Heatran and several other checks. I'm not considering either as truly OP, but they both will be very, very good. 

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24 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

 We're already predicting ferrothorn to have some of the highest usage we've ever seen, and we both know how good scizor is, especially in a meta without Heatran and several other checks. I'm not considering either as truly OP, but they both will be very, very good. 

Scizor is good in that it fills a really cool role (in gen 4 at least, I can't speak to it's role in gen 5 all that much). But that doesn't even remotely mean it's going to be "pseudo broken." As for ferro, I must have missed the meeting where "we" decided it was going to set usage records. I can certainly see it's strengths for both supplementing and combating rain teams, but again, that's a really far cry from pseudo broken

 

And even glossing over all that, let's say I agree with you that those two pokes might be problematic. Do you honestly believe an extra 10 base power on hidden power fire is going to change that? The answer is no, scizor will still be incredibly useful and ferro incredibly splashable. So, with the myriad of new coverage moves well now have at our disposal, it's time to stop using HP as a carefree coverage bandaid. 

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38 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

@Gunthug

 

Where's your argument against a bp 70 HP though?

Hp wasn't ever supposed to be this magical free coverage move for every single situation. With the newer gens came more real coverage moves, relegating hp to more of a niche role, ideally when it's 4x super effective against a strong threat (your hp ices for dragon's or hp fires for your aforementioned pseudobrokens). This change here reflects that trend, but again it's not irreversible. Just like aspiring comedian LinkedIn mentioned with outrage, we'd rather start lower and buff later if it becomes a problem. For hp, I doubt it will. Don't act like you don't remember the days where any HP above 60 was considered a huge success 

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6 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Hp wasn't ever supposed to be this magical free coverage move for every single situation. With the newer gens came more real coverage moves, relegating hp to more of a niche role, ideally when it's 4x super effective against a strong threat (your hp ices for dragon's or hp fires for your aforementioned pseudobrokens). This change here reflects that trend, but again it's not irreversible. Just like aspiring comedian LinkedIn mentioned with outrage, we'd rather start lower and buff later if it becomes a problem. For hp, I doubt it will.

So your argument is that we have more moves and that you've become a Pokemon historian? I guess I can settle with that if I have to, but when a 4x move can't kill the thing it's supposed to kill then I'd hope we'd take the initiative to maintain our prior standing that it served an effective purpose at 70 bp (which is still weak). If we want the dragons to look broken and have less checks for strong steel types, then I guess we should nerf it to 60.

 

6 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Don't act like you don't remember the days where any HP above 60 was considered a huge success 

Where did your last point here even come from?

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3 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

So your argument is that we have more moves and that you've become a Pokemon historian? I guess I can settle with that if I have to, but when a 4x move can't kill the thing it's supposed to kill then I'd hope we'd take the initiative to maintain our prior standing that it served an effective purpose at 70 bp (which is still weak). If we want the dragons to look broken and have less checks for strong steel types, then I guess we should nerf it to 60.

 

Where did your last point here even come from?

2013 100s meta?

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6 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

So your argument is that we have more moves and that you've become a Pokemon historian? I guess I can settle with that if I have to, but when a 4x move can't kill the thing it's supposed to kill then I'd hope we'd take the initiative to maintain our prior standing that it served an effective purpose at 70 bp (which is still weak). If we want the dragons to look broken and have less checks for strong steel types, then I guess we should nerf it to 60.

 

Where did your last point here even come from?

Do the calcs on 60 v 70 hp fire on ferro then come back to me. 60 still serves it's purpose against 4x threats while not being nearly the splashable bandaid against 2x threats, that's the point. Not sure what the historian comment means, and my point with the old hp mechanics was you framed it like we've always had 70 and we should stay that way, but we haven't 

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Just now, Gunthug said:

Do the calcs on 60 v 70 hp fire on ferro then come back to me. 60 still serves it's purpose against 4x threats while not being nearly the splashable bandaid against 2x threats, that's the point.

 

With the new moves you've mentioned, this "splashable bandaid" won't be as effective in the new meta anyway. If you want hp to simply go from fainting a dragon to not, and letting that dragon kill your check then by all means. I'm still not seeing a tangible argument against 70 bp other than "I don't like players using it to patch weaknesses".

 

Just now, Gunthug said:

Not sure what the historian comment means, and my point with the old hp mechanics was you framed it like we've always had 70 and we should stay that way, but we haven't 

I was just trying to carry your distracting tangent a little further. 

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6 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

With the new moves you've mentioned, this "splashable bandaid" won't be as effective in the new meta anyway. If you want hp to simply go from fainting a dragon to not, and letting that dragon kill your check then by all means. I'm still not seeing a tangible argument against 70 bp other than "I don't like players using it to patch weaknesses".

 

I was just trying to carry your distracting tangent a little further. 

You do understand that 90% of the argument by the TC to Darkshade/the devs at the time for 70 BP was basically "We'll have the special split, but not gen 4+ moves, so stronger BP is necessary to cover up the holes we'll have for coverage options". The fact we're going back to 60 BP with gen 5 is literally exactly the expected outcome, since the reason for 70 BP literally no longer exists.

 

You're welcome to disagree with 60 BP, but it was a sensible nerf in Gen 6, and the only reason we diverged from it is because it wasn't sensible for PokeMMO. With Gen 5 though, it more than makes sense; There's no reason for such a universally splashable coverage move to exist.

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Just now, Linken said:

and keeping outrage at 90 bp because sth may or may not get banned is sensible?

Ahhh, I'm sure you felt so clever saying this. You really got me. Refuted my points and made me topple. You got the Sp.Def drop and crit, I never stood a chance. Honestly, I don't know why I bothered, when my posts are going to get destroyed like this. Damn. I'll ask the mods to delete my account to save myself the embarrassment.

 

Spoiler

What I'm saying is, yes, it is, and the 5 seconds it took to look in this thread and read your post was a tremendous waste of my time. If you have no intention of contributing anything meaningful to the discussion than snark because you're salty, then don't.

 

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6 minutes ago, Linken said:

and keeping outrage at 90 bp because sth may or may not get banned is sensible?

and if so... how exactly? 

There have been literal pages of arguments explaining the reasoning behind it. You can't just keep saying "why," go respond to the already posted stuff instead of just wasting time 

 

24 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

With the new moves you've mentioned, this "splashable bandaid" won't be as effective in the new meta anyway. If you want hp to simply go from fainting a dragon to not, and letting that dragon kill your check then by all means. I'm still not seeing a tangible argument against 70 bp other than "I don't like players using it to patch weaknesses".

 

I was just trying to carry your distracting tangent a little further. 

Wasn't trying to distract, was responding during breaks in pickup basketball so my thoughts were a little disjointed. For the record, all the guys I was playing with are in favor of the hp nerf (if "what the fuck are you talking about" counts as in favor)

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5 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

There just isn't any substance in you're argument though. Tell me why 70 bp HP is too good for our new meta, not your opinion on whatever is "splashable".

I actually don't have the burden of proof here. We change to new gen mechanics by default barring a good reason not to. I think your "pseudobroken" reason has been adequately addressed so do you have anything else?

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1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

There just isn't any substance in you're argument though. Tell me why 70 bp HP is too good for our new meta, not your opinion on whatever is "splashable".

If you think there isn't any substance to it, then you obviously just aren't going to agree.

 

With that being said, I will explain it one more time: The reason Hidden Power was nerfed in Gen 6 from 70 BP to 60 is because was used on too many pokemon, too often, as a coverage move. It was never "Too good", it's not a broken move, and it doesn't make things broken, it's just run too frequently and on too many things because at 70 BP, it's that good as a coverage option on anything special/mixed, and sometimes even physical mons, due to the fact it can be any type.

 

That's it. End of discussion. If you don't think that is problematic whatsoever, then you obviously don't and will never have a problem with 70 BP Hidden Power, so of course you don't think the argument for 60 BP has any substance. Because on a fundamental level, your idea of "problematic" is so far removed from the reason it was nerfed that there's nothing else to say; You simply don't agree that the reason for the nerf is valid.

 

And you're welcome to think that, but if you do think that, then don't stand there and say that the reason has not been presented to you. It has. You're simply choosing to ignore it, because you don't agree with it. But that doesn't mean the reason doesn't exist.

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1 hour ago, Gunthug said:

With the newer gens came more real coverage moves

Sorry, but... what exactly are these coverage moves and who gets them? I can think of Energy Ball and Aqua Tail, but I don't know which current hidden power users get a flashy new coverage move and which ones still need to rely on HP, and right now a lot of pokemon come to mind that will continue to rely on HP to hit possible threats.

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17 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

Sorry, but... what exactly are these coverage moves and who gets them? I can think of Energy Ball and Aqua Tail, but I don't know which current hidden power users get a flashy new coverage move and which ones still need to rely on HP, and right now a lot of pokemon come to mind that will continue to rely on HP to hit possible threats.

Off the top of my head, bulldoze fusion bolt glaciate. I'm sure there's more, just Google new moves gen 4 and new moves gen 5. Don't forget, a lot of pokes that may have relied on hp as their primary stab will finally get actual moves (air slash/hurricane come to mind, bug buzz, etc.) 

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8 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Off the top of my head, bulldoze fusion bolt glaciate. I'm sure there's more, just Google new moves gen 4 and new moves gen 5. Don't forget, a lot of pokes that may have relied on hp as their primary stab will finally get actual moves (air slash/hurricane come to mind, bug buzz, etc.) 

Glaciate and Fusion bolt are horrible examples, I hope you're aware of that?

 

E:

 

Bulldoze is a bad example as well tbh

 

From future generations, as when it comes to coverage moves, we have gained just a few.

Energy ball (and grass knot), Dank Pulse, Earth power and welllll... that's it. A huge lot of pokes will still have to rely on a much weakened (40 less base power for x4 hit and 20 for x2) HP Fire, HP Ice, HP Electric did not get absolutely anything- and these three are arguably the most important hidden power types for any generation.

Edited by RysPicz
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10 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Off the top of my head, bulldoze fusion bolt glaciate

Many things that can learn bulldoze don't have business running it, and could run better moves. The latter two are exclusive to pokemon we won't get so idk why you're bringing them up.

 

11 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Don't forget, a lot of pokes that may have relied on hp as their primary stab will finally get actual moves (air slash/hurricane come to mind, bug buzz, etc.)

I don't recall many things running HP Flying/Bug as STAB here but that's just from my experience, also I don't get how some pokemon getting proper STAB is relevant to this, since it's not like we followed RSE to a t.

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2 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

Many things that can learn bulldoze don't have business running it, and could run better moves. The latter two are exclusive to pokemon we won't get so idk why you're bringing them up.

 

I don't recall many things running HP Flying/Bug as STAB here but that's just from my experience, also I don't get how some pokemon getting proper STAB is relevant to this, since it's not like we followed RSE to a t.

How about ice thunder fire fang? Good enough examples? I dk what yoire talking about st the end there 

 

And ferro can use bulldoze to hit magnezone, no business running that? Eath power on the special side has great coverage 

Edited by Gunthug
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2 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

How about ice thunder fire fang?

I'm thinking more about specially based pokemon since some really got the short end of the stick in terms of coverage, if they even gain any apart from HP.

 

3 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I dk what yoire talking about st the end there 

I'm confused why you brought up new STAB moves when the discussion is about HP's coverage.

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