Proposed Temporary Update Tiers Discussion

[Kite]

6 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

Not really that great, unless you want to be able to revenge kill other excadrills in sand (which would mean you would also have to be sand rush and not mold breaker). Excadrill's utility comes from being able to swords dance and that set doesn't really accomplish it. Locking yourself into rapid spin is generally a bad idea

The Rapid Spin is only there if your team cares about rocks/spikes. Outside of that you're not using it.

[Suneet]

@Darkshade, will Unova TMs be added to the game? Like Stone Edge for example

[RysPicz]

Can't wait for PokeMMO VGC!

[fredrichnietze]

6 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Can't wait for PokeMMO VGC!

pls dont hate me when i pull shit like priority encore in vgc

[DaftCoolio]

21 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

pls dont hate me when i pull shit like priority encore in vgc

acting like you wont be running cosmic power and follow me still aye

[fredrichnietze]

16 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

acting like you wont be running cosmic power and follow me still aye

pls it's totally different because now i have magic guard

[londark]

4 hours ago, fredrichnietze said:

pls dont hate me when i pull shit like priority encore in vgc

Wow much creative! Never seen stuff like that before! 

[Suneet]

Also, will Outrage have a base power of 120 now?

[suigin]

Nah it will stick to 90 so stuff like Mence has a chance of staying in OU.

[fredrichnietze]

1 hour ago, suigin said:

Nah it will stick to 90 so stuff like Mence has a chance of staying in OU.

i may be alone in this but i do not think changing the move sets and power of moves for tiering reasons is the right thing to do here. it falls under the logic of why complex bans are bad. lets limit this move for all pokemon so we can use this pokemon instead of maybe having to ban one or two pokemon. and it is maybe for the reason nothing is uber in gen 5 atm. their are too many changes to be certain at this point. even with 90 power outrage, salamance might end up getting banned anyways so lets not fall for the slippery slope. 

their is also the argument that arbitrarily choosing which generation a move behaves as is confusing to players, but that alone i dont think is enough imo. 

[Suneet]

1 hour ago, suigin said:

Nah it will stick to 90 so stuff like Mence has a chance of staying in OU.

But Outrage has a base of 120 in bw, and mence and the other dragons seem to still be in ou, unless the lack of legendaries makes THAT much of a difference

[Linken]

i agree with fred regarding changing the moves

since salamence doesn't get moxie pory2 with evo can come in on it pretty reliably even with a 120 outrage (on a mixed set)

also bronzong and skarm shouldn't have problems in rain either

 

[Kimikozen]

pretty sure Mence can get Draco meteor still via the 8th gym leader (correct me if I'm wrong haven't played game in forever). I'd argue Draco is equally, if not more, problematic in this meta as outrage 120 bp. This is pretty stupid and it limits stuff like Dragonite,Flygon, etc just to nerf mence. the game will eventually need to update to 120 bp so why not just do it now when the tiers are fresh.

[suigin]

1 hour ago, Linken said:

i agree with fred regarding changing the moves

since salamence doesn't get moxie pory2 with evo can come in on it pretty reliably even with a 120 outrage (on a mixed set)

also bronzong and skarm shouldn't have problems in rain either

 

We want to avoid a situation where every team gets forced to run p2 just to counter Mence.

 

Quote

pretty sure Mence can get Draco meteor still via the 8th gym leader (correct me if I'm wrong haven't played game in forever). I'd argue Draco is equally, if not more, problematic in this meta as outrage 120 bp. This is pretty stupid and it limits stuff like Dragonite,Flygon, etc just to nerf mence. the game will eventually need to update to 120 bp so why not just do it now when the tiers are fresh.

Draco is less spammable and forces him to switch out to get its spatk back, it has also been nerfed to 130 BP.

 

Without Heatran around Dragons only need to run fire moves as coverage to have perfect neutral coverage which leaves them two free move slots to do whatever.

Even with Heatran and other legendaries around, Outrage was an incredibly powerful and spammable move. Very few things could switch in to it, wall it and counter attack effectively and even then a lot of these things could easily be trapped and removed by Magnezone, meaning they have to lose lefties in order to use Shed Shell which in turn made them susceptible to chip damage and sometimes they were even unreliable switch ins due to it.  Rain being limited to a few turns also makes fire coverage stronger.

 

For the record Dragonite's Outrage is just as strong as Mence's. Flygon's Scarf and Band set might become a bit weaker than they were in gen5 UU but it also gains Dragon Dance due to gen 7 learnpools, so it should make up for it.  Kingdra remains very strong in OU due to rain and its nice coverage and Altaria and Druddigon were bad even with 120 BP Outrage (Altaria's most used set was with Draco too and Druddigon still has plenty of other sets to use).

 

In order to keep as many Dragon Pokemon as possible usable outside of Uber by giving them more checks and counters, and to fix Gamefreak's fuck up of making Dragons way too strong (which eventually led to the creation of Fairy type in order to balance them out because of how stupid Outrage spam was), keeping their strongest moves slightly weaker seemed like the best approach.

There were other alternatives offered but I'm pretty sure that if you are unhappy with this approach of nerfing Outrage you'd have hated to have any of those as well.

[Zymogen]

2 minutes ago, suigin said:

There were other alternatives offered but I'm pretty sure that if you are unhappy with this approach of nerfing Outrage you'd have hated to have any of those as well.

What were they?

[fredrichnietze]

the argument isnt that it wont be a problem, it could. the argument is we should not be retroactively trying to "fix" the game and tiers through picking and choosing which gen mechanics moves use. 

 

this has far reaching effects besides this narrow circumstance. and unlike tier decisions this can not be tested. once the decision gets hard coded into the game it is not going to change either likely for a very long time. in the last 24 months their has been what? half a dozen updates.

 

besides when does this stop? do we nerf baton pass with a set limit on how many times it can be used in a row? do we used gen 1 hyper beam to give the move a actual use case as intended? we have always made the tiers around the game and now you are trying to make the game around the tiers. it's confusing for the casuals and a precedent. and the value to the tier is questionable at best. 

 

tl;dr pls ban what needs to be banned IF it needs to be banned instead of this. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by fredrichnietze

[Rigamorty]

basically one of the ways we saw it was it's better to keep things/implement things with the weaker versions now and then buff them later if we so see fit. People would be a lot more okay with a buff in the future than a nerf. So after we see how the metas look and you still think outrage could use a higher base power, that would be a good time to talk about it. 

[Senile]

23 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

the argument isnt that it wont be a problem, it could. the argument is we should not be retroactively trying to "fix" the game and tiers through picking and choosing which gen mechanics moves use. 

 

this has far reaching effects besides this narrow circumstance. and unlike tier decisions this can not be tested. once the decision gets hard coded into the game it is not going to change either likely for a very long time. in the last 24 months their has been what? half a dozen updates.

 

besides when does this stop? do we nerf baton pass with a set limit on how many times it can be used in a row? do we used gen 1 hyper beam to give the move a actual use case as intended? we have always made the tiers around the game and now you are trying to make the game around the tiers. it's confusing for the casuals and a precedent. and the value to the tier is questionable at best. 

 

tl;dr pls ban what needs to be banned IF it needs to be banned instead of this. 

First of all, there have been decisions made on what gets changed to future gen mechanics or kept as is based on their affect on comp a TON of times before, so this isn't new at all, idk what you're talking about.

 

Second of all, you're talking about using Gen 1 Hyper Beam as if it wouldn't be the hypest thing in the fucking world.

[Darkshade]

21 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

basically one of the ways we saw it was it's better to keep things/implement things with the weaker versions now and then buff them later if we so see fit. People would be a lot more okay with a buff in the future than a nerf. So after we see how the metas look and you still think outrage could use a higher base power, that would be a good time to talk about it. 

Effectively came here to post this, but Riga seems to have covered all points.

 

If Dragons turn out to be a non-issue, we'll just bump it to 120 later.

 

56 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

What were they?

Lowering base stats, for one.

[Linken]

Spoiler

 

[fredrichnietze]

fuck i had this long reply and then darkshade posted and i lost it =/ whatever happened to autosave? didnt comments use to not delete when you clciked to veiw a new post?

[Kimikozen]

1 hour ago, suigin said:

We want to avoid a situation where every team gets forced to run p2 just to counter Mence.

 

Draco is less spammable and forces him to switch out to get its spatk back, it has also been nerfed to 130 BP.

 

Without Heatran around Dragons only need to run fire moves as coverage to have perfect neutral coverage which leaves them two free move slots to do whatever.

Even with Heatran and other legendaries around, Outrage was an incredibly powerful and spammable move. Very few things could switch in to it, wall it and counter attack effectively and even then a lot of these things could easily be trapped and removed by Magnezone, meaning they have to lose lefties in order to use Shed Shell which in turn made them susceptible to chip damage and sometimes they were even unreliable switch ins due to it.  Rain being limited to a few turns also makes fire coverage stronger.

 

For the record Dragonite's Outrage is just as strong as Mence's. Flygon's Scarf and Band set might become a bit weaker than they were in gen5 UU but it also gains Dragon Dance due to gen 7 learnpools, so it should make up for it.  Kingdra remains very strong in OU due to rain and its nice coverage and Altaria and Druddigon were bad even with 120 BP Outrage (Altaria's most used set was with Draco too and Druddigon still has plenty of other sets to use).

 

In order to keep as many Dragon Pokemon as possible usable outside of Uber by giving them more checks and counters, and to fix Gamefreak's fuck up of making Dragons way too strong (which eventually led to the creation of Fairy type in order to balance them out because of how stupid Outrage spam was), keeping their strongest moves slightly weaker seemed like the best approach.

There were other alternatives offered but I'm pretty sure that if you are unhappy with this approach of nerfing Outrage you'd have hated to have any of those as well.

1. I would argue that Draco, despite being 130>140, is still way more spammable than outrage. Outrage forces you to attack for 2-3 turns, so you can effectively revenge kill or switch into a steel after it's initial use. Meanwhile, Draco just forces you to either switch bcuz special attack drop, or use physical moves afterwards. 

2. I think the problem even after Draco and outrage nerf still lies in mence. All dragons in tier have cool niches, like Dnite can hit hard and DDance, flygon has ground stab, resists rocks and Defog(i personally believe DDance flygon is fucking awful), Hydreigon can use hardest hitting Draco. I think mence destroys this dragon balance and can basically do everything these mons do but better and more versatility. His only weakness is rocks, but defog will really help Mence. unfortunately I don't think u can nerf all dragons and keep all of them in the tier at the same without banning Mence.

 

but yeah I see these points now I actually agree with this outrage nerf. There's not enough steels in this meta or fairy type to stop these monsters, and I'd even argue for Draco to goto 120 bp. But with this being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Mence leaves despite all these nerfs.

[DoubleJ]

Can we move Hidden Power back to 70 bp? I remember how hipster we were sticking to 70 and how appreciative the community was. If we're going to break canon, let's keep up the one move that can help us stop pseudo-broken crap like Ferrothorn and Scizor. 

[pachima]

2 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Can we move Hidden Power back to 70 bp? I remember how hipster we were sticking to 70 and how appreciative the community was. If we're going to break canon, let's keep up the one move that can help us stop pseudo-broken crap like Ferrothorn and Scizor. 

This. SO MUCH THIS!!!!

[Gunthug]

4 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Can we move Hidden Power back to 70 bp? I remember how hipster we were sticking to 70 and how appreciative the community was. If we're going to break canon, let's keep up the one move that can help us stop pseudo-broken crap like Ferrothorn and Scizor. 

what makes you say ferro and scizor are pseudo-broken?