Proposed Temporary Update Tiers Discussion

[Senile]

10 hours ago, Evlgoon said:

bronzong will probably be ou, with wish support from chansey/blissey its a really good check to a lot of things. Slowbro and tangrowth will most likely be ou even without regenerator just by necessity, right now you have only 7 pokemon that can be dedicated walls and they overlap with 2 of them being chansey/blissey and then 3 of them being steel hazard setters. obviously some of the pokemon you listed can use more defensive sets like gyarados but without the power creep from all of the legends i think a lot of the stuff that would normally be uu will be ou in our meta.Other walls that will probably see high usage in ou are alomomola, amoonguss, and mandibuzz, obviously hidden abilities would make some of these better but even without them they will probably be good enough for the tier. I also haven't seen anyone mention mienshao who will probably be one of our better scarf users. 

I think Bronzong is alright, wouldn't be surprised if it ends up OU, but it's pretty iffy.

 

Pretty much every Regenerator pokemon you listed (Alomomola, Amoonguss, Slowbro, Tangrowth) simply cannot succeed in OU without it. I understand your reasoning; There aren't enough defensive pokemon in OU, so people need to run SOMETHING to make a defensive team. With that being said, I don't think the conclusion there is "We need more defensive pokemon in OU", I think the problem is just that the defensive options in OU are really, really bad. Pretty much all of them are massive momentum drains without Regenerator, and in terms of pure defensive bulk, they're all pretty mediocre too.

 

Amoonguss doesn't wall that much, with the most notable thing it can wall being Breloom, but that's about it. It doesn't quite have the bulk & resistances to take on the current Rain Abusers, and gets outright stomped by Pelipper whereas before it had a great matchup vs Politoed, and a perfect typing for answering Keldeo or Thundurus. Especially bad since Synthesis and Giga Drain being it's only healing options in a metagame likely to be crawling with either Sandstorm or Rain means that a good amount of the time, Amoonguss basically won't be able to heal. Throw in a vulnerability to every hazard bar TSpikes, and it really doesn't do anything.

 

Alomomola wouldn't be OU even with Regenerator, IMO. An important thing to keep in mind is AFAIK we won't have updated Wish mechanics, where the HP based is 50% of the passer, not the recipient, so no matter how high the user of Wish's HP, the pass heals the same amount. Not only does this make Wish support worse, it make Alomomola significantly worse, because of how much it relies on Wish to be relevant. Without Regenerator, Alomomola really can't DO anything. With it, it can come in, tank a hit, wish and then switch out into something that needs it without having to worry about it's own HP, since it'll heal itself automatically. This means that it can Wishpass really reliably, along with the massive HP wishes. Not only will it's Wishes no longer be so impressive, but without Regenerator, it won't even be able to pass anywhere near as reliably.

 

Tangrowth, again, largely relies on Regenerator to be usable. It suffers the same problem as Amoonguss; Not too many resistances means it doesn't actually answer too many things, and it's options for recovery without Regenerator are kind of awful. Susceptible to being chipped, etc.; If any Tangrowth ends up being viable, I don't anticipate it being a defensive one, but a more offensive one.

 

Slowbro is different from the other ones, in that it actually has Slack Off for recovery. With that being said, again, without Regenerator, it's too easy to chip down. With it, it's a pretty decent Dragon type check, and can consistently come in on certain fighting types. However, we don't have Terrakion or Keldeo for it to answer, and ultimately, that's all it can do to dragons. Check them. It isn't really a counter.

 

The worst thing about all of these pokemon is that they're massive Ferrothorn bait. Every last one of them except HP Fire Tangrowth pretty much let Ferrothorn in to setup hazards for free, and without Regenerator, they're all actually very vulnerable to Spikes/Rocks. Regenerator is incredibly important to their viability, and even with it, none of these pokemon ended up in OU in Gen 5. Ultimately, I think the problem is that Stall is really bad in Gen 5 OU, and it's probably going to be even worse in PokeMMO.

 

I agree on Mienshao, and I don't really know why nobody has talked about it.

[Toast]

tell me they wont update knock off to 65 + 1.5x right, just skimmed through this thread not sure if its been mentioned

[Munya]

4 minutes ago, Toast said:

tell me they wont update knock off to 65 + 1.5x right, just skimmed through this thread not sure if its been mentioned

No, and it makes me sad :(

[notmudkip0]

30 minutes ago, Senile said:

I agree on Mienshao, and I don't really know why nobody has talked about it.

Mienshao could easily be OU, it doesn't need to compete with Terrakion for a teamslot, can afford a High Jump Kick miss thanks to Regenerator, and can abuse LO + U-Turn to pivot out of a bad matchup while healing at the same time. It also has the luxury of running a mixed attacking set to deal with specific threats, like HP Ice for dragons and Gliscor, as well as Grass Knot to hurt Jellicent and Hippowdon (if it becomes available). The only thing holding it back is its terrible bulk, it can't afford to take any hits, and priority trashes it.

Edited October 28, 2017 by notmudkip0

[suigin]

I definitely think Mienshao has potential for OU. Its LO set is great for luring in checks and weakening them and the scarf set hits a nice speed tier that allows it to revenge kill +1 Salamence with HP Ice with some prior damage and +1 Volcarona with Stone Miss.

[Mnemosyne]

@Senile

 

You do know Slowbro gets flamethrower right?

[Senile]

4 minutes ago, Mnemosyne said:

@Senile

 

You do know Slowbro gets flamethrower right?

i mean, that's neat and all, but it doesn't change that much. Flamethrower is definitely viable, but if it's running Flamethrower, then that means it isn't running, say, Psyshock/Psychic/Toxic/Twave, since Slack Off is necessary, Ice Beam is necessary if you want effectively check Dragons, and Scald is Scald.

 

With that being said, yeah, you're right, Ferrothorn isn't really a reliable switchin on Slowbro because of that, that was my bad.

[Zymogen]

What was the reasoning behind dropping Dugtrio to OU? Or was it solely a "let's see how it goes, prepared to ban if needed" kind of deal? 

[Senile]

1 minute ago, Zymogen said:

What was the reasoning behind dropping Dugtrio to OU? Or was it solely a "let's see how it goes, prepared to ban if needed" kind of deal? 

pretty much. The idea is to have nothing in the initial banlist.

[Zymogen]

1 minute ago, Senile said:

pretty much. The idea is to have nothing in the initial banlist.

Gotcha

[Mnemosyne]

44 minutes ago, Senile said:

i mean, that's neat and all, but it doesn't change that much. Flamethrower is definitely viable, but if it's running Flamethrower, then that means it isn't running, say, Psyshock/Psychic/Toxic/Twave, since Slack Off is necessary, Ice Beam is necessary if you want effectively check Dragons, and Scald is Scald.

 

With that being said, yeah, you're right, Ferrothorn isn't really a reliable switchin on Slowbro because of that, that was my bad.

Just run modest slowbro specs with a trick room poke

 

Ez

[Kimikozen]

cant wait to abuse the shit out of dugtrio

 

and i think ppl are sleeping on gliscor, 95 base speed is enough to revenge lucario, it can get up rocks, hurt stall bad with taunt. if we get flying gem, i think acrobatics SD will be a good set.

[DoubleJ]

Why are we listing Pelipper as an OU? I thought Drizzle was given after Gen 5. 

 

EDIT: Did you mean to have Politoed instead?

Edited October 29, 2017 by DoubleJ

[Senile]

4 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Why are we listing Pelipper as an OU? I thought Drizzle was given after Gen 5. 

 

EDIT: Did you mean to have Politoed instead?

Pelipper is getting Drizzle, and Torkoal is getting Drought.

 

Politoed & Ninetales get their weather abilities as hidden abilities, so they won't have them.

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, Senile said:

Pelipper is getting Drizzle, and Torkoal is getting Drought.

 

Politoed & Ninetales get their weather abilities as hidden abilities, so they won't have them.

Oh interestin' I guess I overlooked that. Reasons why they are other than devs want weather to be OP as fuck?

[Senile]

Just now, DoubleJ said:

Oh interestin' I guess I overlooked that. Reasons why they are other than devs want weather to be OP as fuck?

Pretty sure we're getting most Gen 7 ability additions, for the same reason we got the Gen 7 stat changes. The only exception is, I think, Cursed Body Gengar, because it's a dumb nerf.

 

Also, weather isn't really op as fuck, kek.

[KOHHuiXIN]

I was wondering about potential clauses the TC was thinking about implementing, I took a screen of smogons gen 5 clause list and was wondering which of these you were thinking of adopting (afaik first 3 and evasion move clause are already in the game)

 

Spoiler

 

(I think the first 3 clauses and evasion moves clause are already in the game and I think baton pass is going to be banned right)

 

Moody clause is only a big deal when hidden abilities come out so I guess you guys will worry about that then

Endless battle clause -> infinite battles are totally possible with slowbro/slowking, smeargle, and blissey 

Swagger -> although foul play isn't available on the one pokemon with prankster and swagger (whimsicott), turning a battle into a 50/50 whether you hit yourself I don't think is a competitive aspect of the game

 

[Kizhaz]

1 hour ago, KOHHuiXIN said:

I was wondering about potential clauses the TC was thinking about implementing, I took a screen of smogons gen 5 clause list and was wondering which of these you were thinking of adopting (afaik first 3 and evasion move clause are already in the game)

 

  Hide contents

 

(I think the first 3 clauses and evasion moves clause are already in the game and I think baton pass is going to be banned right)

 

Moody clause is only a big deal when hidden abilities come out so I guess you guys will worry about that then

Endless battle clause -> infinite battles are totally possible with slowbro/slowking, smeargle, and blissey 

Swagger -> although foul play isn't available on the one pokemon with prankster and swagger (whimsicott), turning a battle into a 50/50 whether you hit yourself I don't think is a competitive aspect of the game

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe those are gen 6's clauses as I don't remember swagger being banned in gen 5. In any case we should have the gen 7 confusion, 33% chance to hit yourself, so I don't see swagger as a big issue/as big of an issue anymore. Sleep, species, ohko, evasion moves and HP% are all in the game and Moody I'm sure will be banned. Baton pass is outright banned at this point in time and I believe we'll be testing evasion abilities before making a decision regarding them.

[KOHHuiXIN]

I screen capped it from a gen 5 game actually, if the 33% chance confusion that effectively solves that problem for now too.

Edited October 29, 2017 by KOHHuiXIN

[DoubleJ]

7 hours ago, Senile said:

Pretty sure we're getting most Gen 7 ability additions, for the same reason we got the Gen 7 stat changes. The only exception is, I think, Cursed Body Gengar, because it's a dumb nerf.

 

Also, weather isn't really op as fuck, kek.

No Gastrodon, rain op. 5 turns or not, it will be something scary. 

[Mike]

If you are not aware yet. The PTS has debug commands now and has been extended by 2 days. On the PTS there are also some of the upcoming tiers if you wish to try them out. Tournaments will be held till the PTS ends. Hope to see you all on there!

[DoubleJ]

Any updates from PTS which tutors are available? Are these reliable?

[DoubleJ]

While it might not strike many as an immediate OU, we should probably consider the immediate impact Venusaur will have on the tier. It's a sure fire switch in for Ferrothorn, especially with the heavy number of HP Fire Venu's we already have. It also handles Jellicent fairly well, as well as stalling Chansey and Blissey with Leech Seed. It is also an ez switch for Breloom and can threaten Scizor if healthy. 

[Senile]

18 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

While it might not strike many as an immediate OU, we should probably consider the immediate impact Venusaur will have on the tier. It's a sure fire switch in for Ferrothorn, especially with the heavy number of HP Fire Venu's we already have. It also handles Jellicent fairly well, as well as stalling Chansey and Blissey with Leech Seed. It is also an ez switch for Breloom and can threaten Scizor if healthy. 

It is nowhere near being a surefire for Ferrothorn. It doesn't get rid of it's hazards, takes a hefty amount from Gyro Ball, and doesn't even do that much damage back: (by the way, it's worth mentioning we'll have 60 BP HP after the update)

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 130-156 (71.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Venusaur: 93-111 (60 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Naturally, Gyro Ball will do a lot less to a more defensive Venusaur, but even a fully defensive Venusaur takes a decent amount, on top of any hazard damage:

 

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (113 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 51-60 (27.2 - 32%) -- 46.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 72-88 (39.7 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Sand and Rain likely running around everywhere also means that Synthesis, his best healing option other than Giga Drain, will be pretty much garbage. Stall Chansey + Blissey isn't really noteworthy, since Reuniclus is a way better anti-Blissey + Chansey pokemon and stallbreaker than Venusaur ever could be. It's a good Breloom switchin, but that's about it. As for Scizor, there really isn't a lack of faster fire type using pokemon to check it, so I hardly think that's a relevant point. These damage calcs aren't even accounting for the fact that Venu really doesn't want to get whacked by Twave, which is a relatively common Ferrothorn move.

 

Tbh Venusaur is largely outclassed by Roserade in OU/UU, and Roserade doesn't even really have a niche in OU. Venusaur very much does pretty much nothing in OU.

[DoubleJ]

4 minutes ago, Senile said:

 

Tbh Venusaur is largely outclassed by Roserade in OU/UU, and Roserade doesn't even really have a niche in OU. Venusaur very much does pretty much nothing in OU.

The thing though is that it might not be better than any of those mons at doing what they do best, but its blanket coverage offers an attractive defensive option for covering multiple threats. As for comparing it to Roserade, fair, but the defensive bulk is lacking (if you ignore the clear ability to lay hazards). 

 

Being a jack-of-all-trades and having viability now (meaning players have this thing) will equate to higher use. If it turns out to be shitty and a momentum sponge, then well welcome to UU.