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    • Hisagi

      Rules for Ingame | Forums | IRC   04/29/2016

      Welcome to PokeMMO! This is the PokeMMO Code of Conduct, which states how we moderate the various services provided by us (Forums, In-Game, IRC). You are required to follow this Code of Conduct while using our Forums and playing the Game: 1. Rules related to "Chat" and communication with other users: a. You may not harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other persons using our Service (Players and PokeMMO's Staff). This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about people, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. b. You may not spam, flood, or repeatedly make duplicate posts. Messages composed of gibberish ("fjdklasjfld" "asdfsafdsa" "uiouoiuoiuoi") are considered spam. c. You may not impersonate any PokeMMO staff (volunteer or employed.) d. 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You may not exploit errors in design, features which have not been documented, or "bugs" to gain access which is otherwise not available, or to gain an advantage over other players. b. You may not communicate any exploitable issues (defined in Section 2 Paragraph A of the Code of Conduct) either directly or through public posting, to any other users of PokeMMO. c. While participating in Player vs Player (PvP) gameplay, You may not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to manipulate the outcome of a match, or alter or manipulate any official rankings. d. You may not use cheats, automation software (bots), macros, hacks or any third-party software which can be detrimental to other users' experience, nor will you relay or store any items for other users who are using these processes. e. You may not exploit the game or any of its parts for any commercial purpose, including without limitation: I. 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Violation Reports: If you find a player who is violating the Code of Conduct on these forums, please take the time to report it to us by using the Report button under their post, or the Report button in their profile. If you find a player in-game who you suspect is violating this code of conduct, please take the time to report it to us in the Player Reports section of this forum: https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/forum/28-player-reports/   7. Notes: Certain passages of the PokeMMO Code of Conduct have been simplified in this version. These simplifications include: The term "PokeMMO's Employees" and "PokeMMO's Volunteers" are encompassed by the term "PokeMMO's Staff"     You may find the full, legally binding version of this document at http://pokemmo.eu/code_of_conduct/ This document was last updated on June 30th, 2013.
    • Kyu

      Rules for Competition Alley - Read Before Posting!   05/01/2016

      The Competition Alley subforum is for Competitive Discussions. If you are looking for feedback on your Team, please visit: https://forums.pokem...ive-assistance/ If you are looking for Unofficial Tournaments hosted by our players, please visit: https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/forum/45-unofficial-tournaments/ Rules for discussing a Pokemon: Initial outline and discussion points must be mentioned in the OP. A thread should only be made when it needs to be discussed.   While this is a competitive subforum, please be respectful towards other players. All global rules still apply, and rude or flaming posts will be removed. Some useful links: PokeMMO Tier lists: Official Usage Statistic and Tier Lists List of Clauses Official Event Sub Forum   Note: Tier lists are managed by a Tier List Council, a collection of competitive players volunteering to maintain the rules for PokeMMO's competitive metagame. As PokeMMO's metagame is constantly changing with new updates, the Tier Listings will change alongside it. If you have any questions, comments, or complaints, feel free to message a Competition Alley moderator, listed at the bottom of the forum. If you wish your thread to be closed or trashed, feel free to post the request in the thread, report it, or PM one of the Competition Alley Moderators mentioned above. If you would like your thread to be re-opened after a requested closure, please message a Competition Alley Moderator.
Senile

Proposed Temporary Update Tiers Discussion

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Senile   

So, as some of you may (or may not) know, the upcoming update will completely change the tiers as we know them. Normally, we would wait and take usage to update the tiers accordingly, however, the Tier Council has been tasked with the job of making hypothetical tiers beforehand, to serve as temporary placeholders until we get settled, official tiers from usage stats later on. Early OU, UU, and NU lists were posted in another Competition Alley thread a while back, however, those revisions are pretty inaccurate to the current versions.

 

At the moment, the OU list is mostly done and settled on, while the UU list is much more up to debate. The purpose of this thread is for the community to look at the proposed temporary tiers, and point out any obvious errors, or just placings people disagree with.

 

Before posting the list, it'll probably be helpful to discuss how the list itself was compiled. It's divided into two parts; The "OU" part are effectively pokemon that are very likely to:

 

  • Be decently viable in the OU metagame post update.
  • Are likely to make the OU cutoff.

 

This distinction is important, because there are several pokemon, (see: Snorlax), that are not on the OU list, but might end up being OU early on anyway. Why? Because PokeMMO players are likely to use those pokemon in OU regardless of how viable they may or may not be in the metagame post update, simply because they were banned before, or they already have those pokemon bred and ready. The list is built with this in mind; Although it's totally possible for Flygon or Snorlax to end up OU by usage early on, we do not expect them to stay that way for long, assuming it does happen, due to them likely not having the viability to keep their usage high.

 

Then, there are the "BL" pokemon. We tried to keep the "BL" list as tiny as possible, being pretty much exclusive to pokemon we feel aren't up to par with OU, but likely to be incredibly overwhelming in UU, to the point where actually publicly testing them is unnecessary.

 

With that being said, here is the list:

OU

Spoiler

Archeops

Blissey

Breloom

Chandelure

Chansey

Cloyster

Conkeldurr

Dragonite

Dugtrio

Excadrill

Ferrothorn

Gengar

Gliscor

Gyarados

Haxorus

Hippowdon

Hydreigon

Jellicent

Kabutops

Kingdra

Lucario

Magnezone

Mamoswine

Metagross

Mienshao

Pelipper

Reuniclus

Salamence

Scizor

Skarmory

Starmie

Tyranitar

Volcarona

Wobbuffet

BL

Spoiler

Azumarill

Darmanitan

Torkoal

Bisharp

The UU list is TBA.

 

Additionally, a few last notes to keep in mind when discussing these lists; The TC doesn't 100% know what's going to be in the update either, with that being said, these lists were made with a few assumptions in mind that have been discussed on the forums before. For anyone who hasn't been paying attention to all the posts on the forums about the update, here is a very brief list of important assumptions that this list was made under:

.

  • Do not expect Hidden Abilities.
  • Do not expect custom TMs or HMs or such. (Think Defog)
  • Do not expect Legendary pokemon.
  • Do not expect Sinnoh pokemon not available in Unova. (ie Garchomp isn't on the list because Garchomp isn't going to be out)

 

Also, keep in mind these assumptions are for pretty soon after the update. Obviously, eventually stuff like Sinnoh and it's pokemon and Legendary Dungeons will be added, but for the purposes of these proposed tier lists, those are too far in the future to be relevant.

 

Discuss.

 

Edit:
Here's the Little Cup banlist:

LC:

Spoiler

Tangela

Yanma

Sneasel

Scyther

Gligar

Meditite


Moves:

Sonicboom

Dragon Rage

 

Baton Pass is not banned in Little Cup.

 

Edit 2:

Here's the UU list:

UU:

Spoiler

Aerodactyl

Alakazam

Arcanine

Blaziken

Bronzong

Cofagrigus

Crobat

Flygon

Forretress

Froslass

Galvantula

Gligar

Heracross

Honchkrow

Houndoom

Jolteon

Krookodile

Machamp

Mantine

Milotic

Porygon2

Porygon-Z

Rhyperior

Roserade

Scrafty

Slowbro

Snorlax

Swampert

Togekiss

Vaporeon

Weavile

Whimsicott

Yanmega

Subject to change.

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Are we seriously considering shadow tag (Wobbuffet + Gothetelle) to be OU, even if you're trying to let as many things stay off Ubers, its such an over-centralising and unfun mechanic to play with and restricts all types of team building.

 

See: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gothitelle-shadow-tag-suspect-test.3549908/

 

 

XnLYVkw.png

Edited by KOHHuiXIN
More arguments

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Was more talking about wobb, just there in Goth for its possible debut

 

Didn't feel like I should be too negative, I like the look of most of these suggested OU, they feel pretty close to the right viability imo, I have a few further suggestions not on the list, would be good to see the Tier Council's opinion on:

 

Spoiler

Vaporeon

Toxicroak (iirc can catch croagunk from pokemon outbreak i.e. swarms)

Porygon2

Porygon Z - not sure but worth at least mentioning

Gliscor (another Sinnoh, but can be found route 15 or something)

Weavile/Bisharp - dunno about dark types in general 5, but with Keldeo/Terrakion/Cobalion etc not in the game could be something

Donphan (rapid spin + ice shard + rocks)

Jolteon (pliz)

 

Edited by KOHHuiXIN

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Senile   
5 hours ago, KOHHuiXIN said:

Was more talking about wobb, just there in Goth for its possible debut

 

Didn't feel like I should be too negative, I like the look of most of these suggested OU, they feel pretty close to the right viability imo, I have a few further suggestions not on the list, would be good to see the Tier Council's opinion on:

 

  Hide contents

Vaporeon

Toxicroak (iirc can catch croagunk from pokemon outbreak i.e. swarms)

Porygon2

Porygon Z - not sure but worth at least mentioning

Gliscor (another Sinnoh, but can be found route 15 or something)

Weavile/Bisharp - dunno about dark types in general 5, but with Keldeo/Terrakion/Cobalion etc not in the game could be something

Donphan (rapid spin + ice shard + rocks)

Jolteon (pliz)

 

Wobbuffet has been banned in PokeMMO literally forever, and isn't Uber in gen 5. It's worth testing.

 

Vaporeon kind of does nothing, it's only role is a Cleric.

 

Toxicroak won't be out AFAIK.

 

Porygon2 isn't bad, but it's not really OU worthy. It might end up OU by usage, but it's a pokemon that only has a niche at all in hard stall teams.

 

Porygon Z is garbage.

 

Gliscor won't have Poison Heal, so it's not anywhere close to OU.

 

Bisharp lacks a good, reliable STAB without Knock Off or the steel nerf. Weavile is just a painfully average fast, lategame cleaner, and not really anything else. Better options.

 

Donphan is garbage, run Excadrill if you want Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock. The only reason it was OU in gen 5 is because Excadrill was banned for the longest time, and even then, it was a pretty weird option.

 

I hope you don't expect Jolteon to be OU, kek.

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2 minutes ago, Senile said:

Vaporeon kind of does nothing, it's only role is a Cleric.

When water absorb and scald isn't enough in a rain infested meta apparently

 

4 minutes ago, Senile said:

Porygon2 isn't bad, but it's not really OU worthy. It might end up OU by usage, but it's a pokemon that only has a niche at all in hard stall teams.

You know, trick room although more niche is also a viable play style

 

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

Gliscor won't have Poison Heal, so it's not anywhere close to OU.

May I introduce you to this amazing team called Wilsonernon

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sandstorm-isnt-the-only-thing-that-is-raging-peaked-1-on-suspect.3539069/

 

7 minutes ago, Senile said:

I hope you don't expect Jolteon to be OU, kek.

pliz

 

b873ee2a1d479aec100b37d1c8d7b102.png

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2 minutes ago, Senile said:

Wobbuffet has been banned in PokeMMO literally forever, and isn't Uber in gen 5. It's worth testing.

 

Vaporeon kind of does nothing, it's only role is a Cleric.

 

Toxicroak won't be out AFAIK.

 

Porygon2 isn't bad, but it's not really OU worthy. It might end up OU by usage, but it's a pokemon that only has a niche at all in hard stall teams.

 

Porygon Z is garbage.

 

Gliscor won't have Poison Heal, so it's not anywhere close to OU.

 

Bisharp lacks a good, reliable STAB without Knock Off or the steel nerf. Weavile is just a painfully average fast, lategame cleaner, and not really anything else. Better options.

 

Donphan is garbage, run Excadrill if you want Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock. The only reason it was OU in gen 5 is because Excadrill was banned for the longest time, and even then, it was a pretty weird option.

 

I hope you don't expect Jolteon to be OU, kek.

Uhm, your list is overall pretty good but lots of these are solid things to discuss about instead of just neglecting them in one sentence.

 

- Even though it's true Wobbuffet has always been banned and therefor we just assume it's broken, I don't think it really matters what Smogon did gen 5. We don't like Wobbu because it's fucking stupid and if we still think it's stupid, pretty sure it should be Ubers. The thing is I don't even think it's going to be OU by usage, I just don't see it actually having 4.whatever usage in any tier really - people don't even use it in Ubers tournaments in current PokeMMO. It's just a stupid, cheap mon. Now we know this isn't a reason for ban and we can go around by telling how uncomp/unhealthy is yadda yadda but if we honestly don't want this thing in our metagame for its uncompetitive nature then we shouldn't.

 

- Porygon2 is actually quite amazing in balanced and even hyper offensive teams. It's amazing blanket wall that can check plenty of threats and serve as a really good pivot wall. It isn't that strong but its utility is like no one else's and I honestly think it's easily gonna be OU by usage. But I'm not demanding it to be OU in any way.

 

- Porygon Z isn't garbage, wtf.

 

- Jolteon has pretty sick sweeping potential with Dugtrio around. Not only does it sweep pretty nicely when the specwalls down but it's also one of the only sweepers to not get fucked by Dugtrio by outspeeding (and killing with LO HP Ice). The presence of Dugtrio makes Jolteon a clear OU imo.

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suigin   
6 hours ago, KOHHuiXIN said:

Was more talking about wobb, just there in Goth for its possible debut

 

Didn't feel like I should be too negative, I like the look of most of these suggested OU, they feel pretty close to the right viability imo, I have a few further suggestions not on the list, would be good to see the Tier Council's opinion on:

 

  Hide contents

Vaporeon

Toxicroak (iirc can catch croagunk from pokemon outbreak i.e. swarms)

Porygon2

Porygon Z - not sure but worth at least mentioning

Gliscor (another Sinnoh, but can be found route 15 or something)

Weavile/Bisharp - dunno about dark types in general 5, but with Keldeo/Terrakion/Cobalion etc not in the game could be something

Donphan (rapid spin + ice shard + rocks)

Jolteon (pliz)

 

>Vaporeon

Outclassed as a bulky water by Jellicent and as a cleric by Chansey/Blissey

>Toxicroak

Swarm mons have yet to be officially confirmed

>Porygon 2

Definitely OU worthy but shouldn't hurt too much in UU for now

>Porygon-Z
Forgot about this one, it's pretty mediocre

>Gliscor

No Poison Heal, he's mediocre

>Weavile/Bisharp

Personally I think Weavile has a niche but Mamoswine revenge kills dragons just as easily with a bit more bulk and Bisharp is bad until gen6 overbuffs him

>Donphan

Mediocre outside of the stuff you mentioned, very easy to spinblock.

>Jolteon

He's good but with Mamoswine, Dragons and Chan/Blissey he's very limited, not to mention the omnipresent Ferrothorn

Quote

Ah yes that team that relied a lot on things that aren't in MMO such as Garchomp, Mega Slowbro, ST Gothitelle and 75% paralysis. That Gliscor is "ok" at best but not OU worthy.

Edited by suigin

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7 minutes ago, suigin said:

 

Ah yes that team that relied a lot on things that aren't in MMO such as Garchomp, Mega Slowbro, ST Gothitelle and 75% paralysis. That Gliscor is "ok" at best but not OU worthy.

 

I only quoted that team as a proof of concept to be annoying as hell even without permanent weather, the idea itself came from gen 5 before the age of Showdown but I'm not gonna sift through the histories to find it. 

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suigin   
4 minutes ago, KOHHuiXIN said:

I only quoted that team as a proof of concept to be annoying as hell even without permanent weather, the idea itself came from gen 5 before the age of Showdown but I'm not gonna sift through the histories to find it. 

I mean if being annoying instead of strong signified making it to OU that'd mean Whimsicott would be OU. That Gliscor was very situational and it can punch a hole or two but it's easily outplayable and you have better options.

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Senile   
4 minutes ago, KOHHuiXIN said:

When water absorb and scald isn't enough in a rain infested meta apparently

 

You know, trick room although more niche is also a viable play style

 

May I introduce you to this amazing team called Wilsonernon

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sandstorm-isnt-the-only-thing-that-is-raging-peaked-1-on-suspect.3539069/

 

pliz

 

b873ee2a1d479aec100b37d1c8d7b102.png

No, Water Absorb and Scald isn't enough, since it dies to your average rain sweeper, and it's still a very much "Do nothing" pokemon.

 

I don't consider Trick Room highly viable in Singles, and especially not OU. It can certainly work as a gimmick every now and then, but if it's not doubles, Trick Room just doesn't last long enough to be a consistently dangerous threat if you're running the TR Setup Mon + Abusers. IMO Trick Room's best niche in OU is on a Trick Room Sweeper Reuniclus, who can setup Trick Room for itself and then run through offense teams.

 

Yes, I am aware of Sand Veil. It was banned in Gen 5 for good reason. If people actually start running stupid shit like Sandstorm + Sand Veil spam, I expect Sand Veil to get banned a lot faster than Gliscor becomes top tier OU. Plus, we don't have Sand Veil Garchomp, the pokemon that Gliscor is trying to run support for.

 

I don't know what you hope to get by posting screenshots of Smogon analysises at me, as if I am incapable of reading. I don't know if you read that analysis at all, but you'll noticce that the "key threats" it comes in on, Keldeo and Thundurus-T, don't exist in PokeMMO. Sure, it can still come in on a revenge on Starmie, but that's not exactly saying a lot. In fact, if you notice, there's a significant lack of Volt Switch or electric moves in general in OU; No Thundies, no Rotom, and Magnezone isn't really all that scared of Jolteon anyway.

 

7 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Uhm, your list is overall pretty good but lots of these are solid things to discuss about instead of just neglecting them in one sentence.

 

- Even though it's true Wobbuffet has always been banned and therefor we just assume it's broken, I don't think it really matters what Smogon did gen 5. We don't like Wobbu because it's fucking stupid and if we still think it's stupid, pretty sure it should be Ubers. The thing is I don't even think it's going to be OU by usage, I just don't see it actually having 4.whatever usage in any tier really - people don't even use it in Ubers tournaments in current PokeMMO. It's just a stupid, cheap mon. Now we know this isn't a reason for ban and we can go around by telling how uncomp/unhealthy is yadda yadda but if we honestly don't want this thing in our metagame for its uncompetitive nature then we shouldn't.

 

- Porygon2 is actually quite amazing in balanced and even hyper offensive teams. It's amazing blanket wall that can check plenty of threats and serve as a really good pivot wall. It isn't that strong but its utility is like no one else's and I honestly think it's easily gonna be OU by usage. But I'm not demanding it to be OU in any way.

 

- Porygon Z isn't garbage, wtf.

 

- Jolteon has pretty sick sweeping potential with Dugtrio around. Not only does it sweep pretty nicely when the specwalls down but it's also one of the only sweepers to not get fucked by Dugtrio by outspeeding (and killing with LO HP Ice). The presence of Dugtrio makes Jolteon a clear OU imo.

I mean, I know why people don't like Wobbu, but of all the trappers, imo it's actually probably one of the least banworthy. I can't really think of any super degenerate, OP teams that were enabled by Wobbuffet of all things in gen 5+, whereas if you asked me about Gothitelle or Dugtrio, I'd be able to list a handful. IMO, of the trappers, Dugtrio is probably more banworthy than Wobbuffet. With that being said, of the two, I understand the hatred for Wobbuffet; It's a lot more obnoxious, even if it's nowhere near as good.

 

I don't disagree with your point about it being low usage. With that being said, if it doesn't get OU usage, I very much doubt it'll be allowed to drop to UU, so it is for all intents and purposes OU.

 

I don't disagree with you on Porygon2, I've seen it used pretty decently in gen 5+ every now and then, even though it's very uncommon. I definitely think it's "viable enough" for OU, I just think that it's niche enough that I don't expect it to get enough usage for OU. I honestly think it's a tossup where it ends up, and it could easily end up being one of those pokemon that fluctuates between UU and OU.

 

Hard disagree on Porygon-Z. Maybe I came off as harsher than I intended; Obviously, Porygon-Z isn't complete garbage. With that being said, IMO, it is very much completely non-viable in the context of OU, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I'd argue that Jolteon's late game sweeping, while good, isn't amazing, and I don't expect it to get used enough to be OU. There's options for taking care of it other than Chansey or Blissey, which you shouldn't expect on every team anyway, since they're basically only on the hardest of stall teams. Jolteon still suffers vs Tyranitar, Excadrill, Mamoswine and Ferrothorn, and you've also ignored the fact that Focus Sash Dugtrio KOs and traps Jolteon regardless of HP Ice, which is actually a big deal. There's also the problem of what you run; The specs set hits hard, but is incredibly easy to revenge, or even just predict and get a good switchin on with how predictable it is, not to mention that it gets revenged by Dugtrio so easily it's depressing. Volt Switch helps this, but it's not perfect. The Life Orb set dies to itself, between being vulnerable to every hazard, not being able to switch in on many moves other than an Electric attack, and other random chip like Sandstorm. Also, it can't run stuff like Sub+BP anymore, which is really unfortunate in terms of making it more unpredictable and difficult to deal with.

 

On top of that, even though it's fast, it's still slower than most relevant scarfers, and between the inevitable chip damage + LO, it can very easily be disposed of by priority from Conkel/Breloom/Lucario/Dragonite/You get the idea.

 

Honestly, I don't think Jolteon has 0 viability in OU, but I really don't think it's necessarily OU worthy, and your short blurb is massively downplaying it's flaws IMO.

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DoubleJ   

Glad you finally agreed that Azu is at least BL. Many of its checks aren't going to be released and it's pretty easily supported by other mons.

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RysPicz   

Jesus Senile you're the biggest nerd I've ever seen.

 

The proposed list looks pretty much spot on, each time I don't see a poke out there (slowbro, tangrowth, garchomp etc) I realise it either need the hidden ability or won't be available. I'm wondering about Torkoal though which will be our sun setter- the only one afaik. Another thing is our most likely only Moxie user Krookodile, which with that kind of dual-stab might be really decent lategame scarf cleaner despite it's weakness for aqua jet and mach punch from Azu/ Tops and Loom/ Conk respectively.

 

Regardless I'm not very fond of idea to make a pre-eliminary OU tier rather than letting it totally settle by itself, but I understand the reasons why is this suggested.

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Senile   
6 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Jesus Senile you're the biggest nerd I've ever seen.

 

The proposed list looks pretty much spot on, each time I don't see a poke out there (slowbro, tangrowth, garchomp etc) I realise it either need the hidden ability or won't be available. I'm wondering about Torkoal though which will be our sun setter- the only one afaik. Another thing is our most likely only Moxie user Krookodile, which with that kind of dual-stab might be really decent lategame scarf cleaner despite it's weakness for aqua jet and mach punch from Azu/ Tops and Loom/ Conk respectively.

 

Regardless I'm not very fond of idea to make a pre-eliminary OU tier rather than letting it totally settle by itself, but I understand the reasons why is this suggested.

Well, technically, there's Moxie Scrafty.

 

With that being said, IMO you kind of said it yourself. It's a pretty decent lategame scarfer, but in OU especially, that isn't really good enough. There are other, far better Dark types competing for a team slot, it's still outsped by a good amount of other Scarfers along with Swift Swim, Sand Rush and Chlorophyll, and priority makes short work of it even when it's not weakened. IMO Krookodile is very much a victim of being a decent pokemon in a metagame that's largely hostile to it.

 

3 minutes ago, pachima said:

I dont see togekiss in that list.

That's because it's not OU.

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I personally don't think too much of Krook, even tho it has moxie and intimidate, the menace of it to me was always a knock off sweep in ORAS, which isn't so scary here, eq can be prepared for much more easily. Top tier UU, don't feel so much OU.

 

As for Jolteon, I'm not 100% claiming that its OU material, but despite all those reasons you've mentioned its still managed to remain a top tier threat all the way through get 1 - 5, it loses in gen 6 due to the addition of way too many fatties (Florges/Shaymin/Celebi/Blissey), and competition with Heliolisk.

 

Using focus sash dug trio is a poor argument for a counter -> implying stealth rocks and spikes don't exist, and needing focus sash to be the counter (with that logic I'm gonna bring focus sash Wigglytuff as my bird check), ferro is a check could run hp fire meme, but I'll accept that majority of big grass types can do a decent job in stopping jolteon

 

I would personally like sand veil to be banned, and hopefully after testing you guys will have evidence on why shadow tag is pretty uncompetitive but yeah, I do like the "defined" temporary tiers maybe there'll be some changes when innovation arrives but shouldn't be too different to what you guys have put.

Edited by KOHHuiXIN

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redspawn   
1 hour ago, Senile said:

Wobbuffet has been banned in PokeMMO literally forever, and isn't Uber in gen 5. It's worth testing.

 

Vaporeon kind of does nothing, it's only role is a Cleric. not entirely.

 

Toxicroak won't be out AFAIK.

 

Porygon2 isn't bad, but it's not really OU worthy. It might end up OU by usage, but it's a pokemon that only has a niche at all in hard stall teams. p2 isn't bad xD, p2 eviotite is a ridiculous wall for the UU tier.

 

Porygon Z is garbage. - not entirely, actually viable in a lot of situations, not as usable as p2 for sure.

 

Gliscor won't have Poison Heal, so it's not anywhere close to OU.  xD, like poison heal is the only thing that makes ridiculously strong.

 

Bisharp lacks a good, reliable STAB without Knock Off or the steel nerf. Weavile is just a painfully average fast, lategame cleaner, and not really anything else. Better options.

 

Donphan is garbage, run Excadrill if you want Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock. The only reason it was OU in gen 5 is because Excadrill was banned for the longest time, and even then, it was a pretty weird option. Think you might have been playing the wrong game, the reason why he was OU was because unlike excadrill he doens't have this problems below(not to mention excadrill has base 60 def.)   : M7ojiiZeS922beoI8IASaw.png

 

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I hope you don't expect Jolteon to be OU, kek. - it's 50/50, he can be ridiculous strong in OU with the right setup. But then again yeah probably UU BL

Honest opinion, watch tier usage from week to week now, and tweak things weekly on the first month. Personally think that you're underestimating a few, and overestimating a few aswell. Other than those mentioned there, Hydreigon is ridiculous in OU aswell if no nerfs happen. That thing mixed scarf is ridiculous

Edited by redspawn

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suigin   
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Vaporeon kind of does nothing, it's only role is a Cleric. not entirely.

What does Vaporeon do besides clerical duties? Growth Vaporeon will be bad and any other bulky water type will be able to dish out scalds and absorb them

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Porygon2 isn't bad, but it's not really OU worthy. It might end up OU by usage, but it's a pokemon that only has a niche at all in hard stall teams. p2 isn't bad xD, p2 eviotite is a ridiculous wall for the UU tier.

UU will have incredibly strong Fighting Types, P2 won't be that ridiculous.

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Gliscor won't have Poison Heal, so it's not anywhere close to OU.  xD, like poison heal is the only thing that makes ridiculously strong.

And yes Poison Heal turning him into a godly stallbreaker is what makes him ridiculously strong, keep in mind this meta will have some incredibly strong dragons and ice moves all over the place to deal with them.

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Donphan is garbage, run Excadrill if you want Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock. The only reason it was OU in gen 5 is because Excadrill was banned for the longest time, and even then, it was a pretty weird option. Think you might have been playing the wrong game, the reason why he was OU was because unlike excadrill he doens't have this problems below(not to mention excadrill has base 60 def.)   : 

Donphan was always considered bad in gen5 OU, it clung to the tier the same way Electivire did in gen4.

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Even though Donphan has a few useful traits, it is by no means a good Pokemon. It is widely outclassed by other spinners and finds it difficult to stay alive. Overall, Donphan is a very niche Pokemon, and should always be considered as a last resort if none of the other spinners seem to work on a team.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/pokemon/donphan/

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Senile   
2 minutes ago, redspawn said:

 

 

Porygon2 is a really good UU wall. I don't think anyone disagreed with that. Are you saying it's too good and should be BL? Don't really know what you're implying there.

 

Disagree with PZ being "Viable in a lot of situations", at least in OU. If you're talking about UU, that's different, but again, we're not talking about UU.

 

Yes, Poison Heal IS what makes Gliscor strong. I'd love for you to prove me wrong, but based on the composition of your post, that seems unlikely.

 

So I'm sure you felt so fucking clever and smart when you made your fancy little image of "haHAA weaknesses", but quite frankly, it's not clever, and it's not smart. I don't know if you've actually played gen 5, but I have, and it is very fucking easy to refute your point, so I'm going to go ahead and do just that.

 

So, if we look at SPL Gen 5 Usage, and the Gen 5 BW Viability rankings, you'll notice that Donphan is conspicuously absent from both of them. Do you know why that is? I'll give you a hint, it's not because people forgot about it, it's because a bit after the end of BW OU ended and XY came along, they decided to unban Excadrill, and ban Sand Rush + Sand Stream instead. Do you know why? Because in Gen 5 OU, Rapid Spinning was the only way to get rid of hazards, and after the removal of Excadrill, the only decent spinners left were Starmie and Tentacruel. Because of this, people started running garbage like Donphan to fill the void, but even then, it was a niche, obscure pick.

 

Of course, the instant Excadrill was added back to OU, Donphan disappeared from OU completely, as if it never existed at all. The fact of the matter is, Donphan has no place in OU with Excadrill around. You can go on and on about how they're pretty different, how Donphan isn't weak to fighting or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, the only reason to use Donphan in OU is to Rapid Spin. There are better Stealth Rockers, there are better physical tanks, and there are for fucking sure better ground types. And, as a Rapid Spinner, Donphan is painfully mediocre, and INCREDIBLY outclassed by Excadrill.

 

But yeah, please, tell me more about how Donphan isn't worse than Excadrill as a spinner. Maybe you've got the missing puzzle piece nobody else seems to have.

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@Senile

 

Why isnt tentacruel in the OU list. Toxic spikes + rapid spin is pretty good to have. Also good typing.

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Senile   
Just now, Mnemosyne said:

@Senile

 

Why isnt tentacruel in the OU list. Toxic spikes + rapid spin is pretty good to have. Also good typing.

Toxic Spikes are very niche, they're pretty much exclusively used on hazard stacking teams, because other hazards are generally better in most situations; There's a lot of pokemon who either don't care too much about TSpikes, or are outright immune. Tentacruel can spin pretty reliably, which is definitely it's best feature, but to do so it needs to run Toxic in order to spin against stuff like Jellicent, which really narrows it's viable moveset, making it far more predictable (Toxic + Rapid Spin + Scald are all basically mandatory), and if you forgo those options, it might be less predictable, but it can also be answered much, MUCH more easily.

 

Ultimately, Tenta's biggest problem is the lack of perma-rain. In gen 5, Drizzle + Black Sludge + Rain Dish was giving it 12.5% healing every turn. This meant it was a pretty good spinner, because although it's vulnerable to Spikes & Rocks, the massive passive regen meant that it wasn't easy to chip away with passive damage, in addition to giving it much more longevity. In PokeMMO, it won't even have Rain Dish, and even if it did, it'd be hard pressed to exploit it. It has no real, reliable recovery, so it is way too easy to chip down and kill, taking damage from Sandstorm, Hazards, and anything that hits it when it switches in. The final nail in the coffin is that even though it can spin against most spinblockers, it actually can't safely switch into any of the best hazard setters. Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Mamoswine, Excadrill, and more all threaten to do massive damage to Tentacruel if it even tries to come in, and even when it's in, it doesn't necessarily even beat most of them depending on the sets.

 

It's not awful, but IMO it's only likely to get 1, maybe 2 spins out per game if done well, before succumbing to chip. I'd say Starmie or Excadrill are generally better spinners.

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redspawn   
2 hours ago, Senile said:

Porygon2 is a really good UU wall. I don't think anyone disagreed with that. Are you saying it's too good and should be BL? Don't really know what you're implying there.

 

Disagree with PZ being "Viable in a lot of situations", at least in OU. If you're talking about UU, that's different, but again, we're not talking about UU.

 

Yes, Poison Heal IS what makes Gliscor strong. I'd love for you to prove me wrong, but based on the composition of your post, that seems unlikely.

 

So I'm sure you felt so fucking clever and smart when you made your fancy little image of "haHAA weaknesses", but quite frankly, it's not clever, and it's not smart. I don't know if you've actually played gen 5, but I have, and it is very fucking easy to refute your point, so I'm going to go ahead and do just that.

 

So, if we look at SPL Gen 5 Usage, and the Gen 5 BW Viability rankings, you'll notice that Donphan is conspicuously absent from both of them. Do you know why that is? I'll give you a hint, it's not because people forgot about it, it's because a bit after the end of BW OU ended and XY came along, they decided to unban Excadrill, and ban Sand Rush + Sand Stream instead. Do you know why? Because in Gen 5 OU, Rapid Spinning was the only way to get rid of hazards, and after the removal of Excadrill, the only decent spinners left were Starmie and Tentacruel. Because of this, people started running garbage like Donphan to fill the void, but even then, it was a niche, obscure pick.

 

Of course, the instant Excadrill was added back to OU, Donphan disappeared from OU completely, as if it never existed at all. The fact of the matter is, Donphan has no place in OU with Excadrill around. You can go on and on about how they're pretty different, how Donphan isn't weak to fighting or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, the only reason to use Donphan in OU is to Rapid Spin. There are better Stealth Rockers, there are better physical tanks, and there are for fucking sure better ground types. And, as a Rapid Spinner, Donphan is painfully mediocre, and INCREDIBLY outclassed by Excadrill.

 

But yeah, please, tell me more about how Donphan isn't worse than Excadrill as a spinner. Maybe you've got the missing puzzle piece nobody else seems to have.

Well, soon you'll find out I guess about Donphan, give time to time. Plus I can only see excadill going uber as soon as HA hit and he climbs up. Not saying he's a must have pick, but you can't compare him to exca. Especially consider how much focus blast users, hp fires etc, there'll be, but then again only time can tell on that one, still can't see why compare both other than the fact they share equal typing and both work well as spinners. Good bulk, ice move with priority, overall awesome atk stat, and good typing non the less, plus sturdy. dumb me

About others, vaporeon can be used as a offensive support, it was used previously and can still be used, I honestly can see him being to strong to UU, but that's a wild guess as I can't test em. P2 should be BL for sure or even hit OU and he can actually wall plenty, since he's a fat eviotite wall.

You said PZ was garbage(wasn't sure if you refering to OU only or not on him), PZ UU can and was a decent sweeper. 

Sand Veil makes glisgor a really strong sweeper with a lot of bulk  btw, keep that in mind.

You're the only one thinking someone is trying to sound clever or anything. Don't take me wrong, you're entitled to your opinion, you placed this here to discuss, so let's dicuss it. But calling something garbage or telling ''this is good'', ''this is bad'' isn't the way to see things, not when they want to mix gen5 with gen7, I'd rather have a more open OU, that includes many of the possible threads, and then filter them through usage in the first 1-2 weeks then go ahead and bash overpowered things into UU. 


 

Edited by redspawn

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suigin   
3 minutes ago, redspawn said:

Well, soon you'll find out I guess about Donphan, give time to time. Plus I can only see excadill going uber as soon as HA hit and he climbs up. Not saying he's a must have pick, but you can't compare him to exca. Especially consider how much focus blast users, hp fires etc, there'll be, but then again only time can tell on that one, still can't see why compare both other than the fact they share equal typing and both work well as spinners. Good bulk, ice move with priority, overall awesome atk stat, and good typing non the less, plus sturdy.

Mold Breaker Excadrill was never Uber worthy, if you meant Sand Rush then it was only because weather was permanent and it could easily pull 1-6 sweeps given the right set up and nothing would outspeed it. He's more likely to be scared by scalds than by hp fires or Focus Blasts.

 

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P2 should be BL for sure or even hit OU and he can actually wall plenty, since he's a fat eviotite wall.

UU Currently has strong enough fighting types to break past it, it's not fat enough to survive stuff like Machamp or Mienshao.

 

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Sand Veil makes glisgor a really strong sweeper with a lot of bulk  btw, keep that in mind.

Gliscor has 95 attack and 95 speed, it's vulnerable to status, weak to ice which much stronger sweepers like Salamence are weak to, Has literally one set that requires a fairly hard to farm consumable to utilize, cannot use a band or a scarf, is vulnerable to phazing, cannot break past Skarmory, is vulnerable to bulky waters in general and on top of that requires wasting a Sandstorm turn to set up, Gliscor isn't gonna be good in OU.

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DrButler   
7 minutes ago, suigin said:

Gliscor has 95 attack and 95 speed, it's vulnerable to status, weak to ice which much stronger sweepers like Salamence are weak to, Has literally one set that requires a fairly hard to farm consumable to utilize, cannot use a band or a scarf, is vulnerable to phazing, cannot break past Skarmory, is vulnerable to bulky waters in general and on top of that requires wasting a Sandstorm turn to set up, Gliscor isn't gonna be good in OU.

wish i read this yesterday, 5x jolly rdy to go...

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redspawn   
1 minute ago, suigin said:

Mold Breaker Excadrill was never Uber worthy, if you meant Sand Rush then it was only because weather was permanent and it could easily pull 1-6 sweeps given the right set up and nothing would outspeed it. He's more likely to be scared by scalds than by hp fires or Focus Blasts.

 

UU Currently has strong enough fighting types to break past it, it's not fat enough to survive stuff like Machamp or Mienshao.

 

Gliscor has 95 attack and 95 speed, it's vulnerable to status, weak to ice which much stronger sweepers like Salamence are weak to, Has literally one set that requires a fairly hard to farm consumable to utilize, cannot use a band or a scarf, is vulnerable to phazing, cannot break past Skarmory, is vulnerable to bulky waters in general and on top of that requires wasting a Sandstorm turn to set up, Gliscor isn't gonna be good in OU.

''fairly hard consumable'', is there anything money can't buy? with a economy as broken as we currently have, anyone I find, I expect them to have 20m+ without breaking a sweat. Harvesting is way to profitable, alt run aswell, so don't think that's the right approach to the subject, as long as there is someone selling, someone will buy. I agree that he can't really do much to skarmory, and that he's somewhat vulnerable to many threats. Do you believe although, that people won't lead Wall Ttar or even hyper offensive? I believe there'll be a lot of ttar leads tbh.

Yeah I guess, you could say the same to ttar, lots of focus blast users in OU, I seriously think you guys are underestimating him(p2). Ofc he doens't survive fighting, but nor does milotic hold a jolteon specs well.

Excadrill although, can be a threat on mold breaker aswell, a really strong one, I'd probably say one of the strongest wall breakers we might get in the OU tier if he doens't get banned.

 

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