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Kepler1

Counter to Venusaur?

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Kepler1   

Basically the title. What's a good counter to Venusaur?

   -My team does not have fire or fighting coverage

   -Is Blaziken a good cover?

   -What set can I run?

 

(EDIT: for convienence)

 

10 minutes ago, redspawn said:

What team are you trying to run?

Currently I have :

Gyarados (generic Sweeper)

Weezing (Physical Wall)

Jolteon (Fast, hard Sp attacker)

 

I mainly want to keep those 3 pokes.

 

These next three I'm hoping to replace so it's more diverse and have more counters.

 

Umbreon (SpDef and Def wall, curse sweeper)

Haunter -Just something I put in randomly because I couldn't think of anything else. 

   Item:Swift Choice Band, Modest

    Max Speed and Spatk

    Thunderbolt, ShadowBall, Destiny Bond, Hypnosis

Pikachu: (Fake out, Volt Tackle, Thunderbolt, E speed)

Edited by Kepler1

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redspawn   

What team are you trying to run?

No blaziken is not a good cover, a sludge bomb will place blaziken in a bad position.

Best counter for him in my opinion, is crobat. SuperFang/HeatWave/Taunt/Sub, Toxic or Sludge. But there's a few pokemons who can work good against him, just... depends on what you want to run on your team.

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Kepler1   
3 minutes ago, redspawn said:

What team are you trying to run?

No blaziken is not a good cover, a sludge bomb will place blaziken in a bad position.

Best counter for him in my opinion, is crobat. SuperFang/HeatWave/Taunt/Sub, Toxic or Sludge. But there's a few pokemons who can work good against him, just... depends on what you want to run on your team.

Currently I have :

Gyarados (generic Sweeper)

Weezing (Physical Wall)

Jolteon (Fast, hard Sp attacker)

 

I mainly want to keep those 3 pokes.

 

These next three I'm hoping to replace so it's more diverse and have more counters.

 

Umbreon (SpDef and Def wall, curse sweeper)

Haunter -Just something I put in randomly because I couldn't think of anything else. 

   Item:Swift Choice Band, Modest

    Max Speed and Spatk

    Thunderbolt, ShadowBall, Destiny Bond, Hypnosis

Pikachu: (Fake out, Volt Tackle, Thunderbolt, E speed)

 

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redspawn   
10 minutes ago, Kepler1 said:

Currently I have :

Gyarados (generic Sweeper)

Weezing (Physical Wall)

Jolteon (Fast, hard Sp attacker)

 

I mainly want to keep those 3 pokes.

 

These next three I'm hoping to replace so it's more diverse and have more counters.

 

Umbreon (SpDef and Def wall, curse sweeper)

Haunter -Just something I put in randomly because I couldn't think of anything else. 

   Item:Swift Choice Band, Modest

    Max Speed and Spatk

    Thunderbolt, ShadowBall, Destiny Bond, Hypnosis

Pikachu: (Fake out, Volt Tackle, Thunderbolt, E speed)

 

There's plenty of sets for gyarados tho, one of them kind of deals well with venu, with Bounce, but not to viable for anything else.

Jolteon with HP ice can damage venu, and weezing with flamethrower can damage him, what you lack is someone able to sustain him an threat him there.

Haunter to squishy, if it doens't 1 hit and leaves him on overgrow range, you deaded. Curse umbreon is garbage honestly, avoid it, cleric umbreon or stall umbreon are better, it doens't counter venu, and is actually a rather bad switch on venu, as he's immune to toxic and he can just growth in umbreon face. 

Taunt kinda makes venusaur less of a threat, so you can search for something with it. Then you want something able to wall any venu set, crobat has both access to walling him, and to taunt, plus has heat wave and super fang to make his life miserable.

Tentacruel is a somewhat okish switch into him, but lets be real? He growths 2/3 times and rip tentacruel. Metagross is a good switch into it, but then hp fire can ruin your day.

Typhlosion is a good switch on any set, even if he sludge you predicting:

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 105-125 (68.6 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 58-69 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 150-176 (80.2 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


A Pory2 with Twave + Ice Beam on your team would also help you. Not only for him but in general.


Completely depends on how you wanna play, offensive, hyper offensive, defensive, stall... your team looks like a somewhat safe team with those 3 pokes so far.


 

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redspawn   

Sorry to write a double answer, but got absolutely no clue of the original font, and copypasting from damage calc ruined it, so to avoid losing much time.

Pikachu is awesome to play with, actually great vs some teams, but reaaaaally struggles in OU meta, anything one shots him, making him not viable.

Haunter was meta, back when chansey was OU, and truth be told, he can still work, but is rather hard to make it happen. Hypnosis is a really bad move accuracy wise, I don't recommend that at all. Instead, you should try to get hp ice/fire on it, might help more even in UU metagame although I know little of UU.

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Quint   

For Venu you can run Tenta, Crobat, Muk, Gardevoir, Espeon or a (sassy) Arcanine . Keep in mind both Tenta and Crobat can be hit by hp elec Venu and Gard or Espeon dont like to get poisened by sludge bomb and dont like the combo of a pursuit trapper+Venu. 

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Kepler1   
31 minutes ago, redspawn said:

Sorry to write a double answer, but got absolutely no clue of the original font, and copypasting from damage calc ruined it, so to avoid losing much time.

Pikachu is awesome to play with, actually great vs some teams, but reaaaaally struggles in OU meta, anything one shots him, making him not viable.

Haunter was meta, back when chansey was OU, and truth be told, he can still work, but is rather hard to make it happen. Hypnosis is a really bad move accuracy wise, I don't recommend that at all. Instead, you should try to get hp ice/fire on it, might help more even in UU metagame although I know little of UU.

Thank you! I read both posts. I think I may go with typhlosion mainly because I lack special attackers and fire coverage on my team. 

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1 hour ago, Kepler1 said:

Basically the title. What's a good counter to Venusaur?

   -My team does not have fire or fighting coverage

   -Is Blaziken a good cover?

   -What set can I run?

 

(EDIT: for convienence)

 

Currently I have :

Gyarados (generic Sweeper)

Weezing (Physical Wall)

Jolteon (Fast, hard Sp attacker)

 

I mainly want to keep those 3 pokes.

 

These next three I'm hoping to replace so it's more diverse and have more counters.

 

Umbreon (SpDef and Def wall, curse sweeper)

Haunter -Just something I put in randomly because I couldn't think of anything else. 

   Item:Swift Choice Band, Modest

    Max Speed and Spatk

    Thunderbolt, ShadowBall, Destiny Bond, Hypnosis

Pikachu: (Fake out, Volt Tackle, Thunderbolt, E speed)

If you want to make a good counter to Venusaur, then I would suggest for you to make a Tentacruel (make sure you give it Liquid Ooze as its ability so that Venusaur can hurt itself every time it tries to giga drain). You can run Tentacruel any way you like, but I would prefer the special attacking variant:

 

Tentacruel:

Nature: Modest/Timid

IVs: HP +25/Attack X/Defence +25/Sp Attack +25/Sp Defence +25/Speed 31

EVs: 252 Sp Attack/252 Speed

Moveset: Ice Beam/Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain/Surf

Ability: Liquid Ooze

Item Held: Special Choice Band/Swift Choice Band

 

If you run those types of Tentacruel, then your 80% Venusaur proof. I rarely see Sword Dancing Venusaurs since Power Whip is not implemented yet otherwise I would worry about physical Venusaurs carrying Earthquake.

 

2 minutes ago, Kepler1 said:

Thank you! I read both posts. I think I may go with typhlosion mainly because I lack special attackers and fire coverage on my team. 

Typholosion is decent, but it is kind of frail and takes neutral damage from sludge bomb. Tentacruel for now is probably the best counter for most variants of Venusaur.

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redspawn   
Just now, Bestfriends said:

If you want to make a good counter to Venusaur, then I would suggest for you to make a Tentacruel (make sure you give it Liquid Ooze as its ability so that Venusaur can hurt itself every time it tries to giga drain). You can run Tentacruel any way you like, but I would prefer the special attacking variant:

 

Tentacruel:

Nature: Modest/Timid

IVs: HP +25/Attack X/Defence +25/Sp Attack +25/Sp Defence +25/Speed 31

EVs: 252 Sp Attack/252 Speed

Moveset: Ice Beam/Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain/Surf

Ability: Liquid Ooze

Item Held: Special Choice Band/Swift Choice Band

 

If you run those types of Tentacruel, then your 80% Venusaur proof. I rarely see Sword Dancing Venusaurs since Power Whip is not implemented yet otherwise I would worry about physical Venusaurs carrying Earthquake.

 

Typholosion is decent, but it is kind of frail and takes neutral damage from sludge bomb. Tentacruel for now is probably the best counter for most variants of Venusaur.

Define best counter to me please.

''counters'' this is scenarios in which venu switches and you manage to ice beam him, considering modest venusaur for this scenario.

 

 +2 252+ SpA Overgrow Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 112-133 (59.8 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Overgrow Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 146-173 (78 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 99-117 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

+2 252+ SpA Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 76-90 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

Afaik, having a wall without some sort of sustain, on low hp, even after trying to do smething to take him down, isn't exactly a counter, but a sacrifice 1 for 1.

Meanwhile you have crobat, who doens't get hardly hit by any move of him besides ancient power and a calm crobat also negates most of ancient power damage if you stall it out in between and he doens't hit the 10% chance to boost. At best sludge deals 49% considering modest max sp.atk life orb to him. And since he outspeeds, super fang takes out 50%, heat wave 35-48% if I'm not mistaken(lazy to calc all of the ev spreads), you're guaranteed to one hit it, oh, and you're not fragile to EQ and to a LOOOOOT of other pokes, like you are with tentacruel. Ofc, he isn't fail proof, nor ''newbie'' proof, but are you really going to let crobat in the face of a flygon or anyone able to completely destroy him? So many variables to take into consideration, there's no ''direct'' counter to him because it all depends on the moveset he's running, sleep power, growth, growth, giga, and bye tentacruel pretty much.

 

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12 minutes ago, redspawn said:

Define best counter to me please.

''counters'' this is scenarios in which venu switches and you manage to ice beam him, considering modest venusaur for this scenario.

 

 +2 252+ SpA Overgrow Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 112-133 (59.8 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Overgrow Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 146-173 (78 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 99-117 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

+2 252+ SpA Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 76-90 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

Afaik, having a wall without some sort of sustain, on low hp, even after trying to do smething to take him down, isn't exactly a counter, but a sacrifice 1 for 1.

Meanwhile you have crobat, who doens't get hardly hit by any move of him besides ancient power and a calm crobat also negates most of ancient power damage if you stall it out in between and he doens't hit the 10% chance to boost. At best sludge deals 49% considering modest max sp.atk life orb to him. And since he outspeeds, super fang takes out 50%, heat wave 35-48% if I'm not mistaken(lazy to calc all of the ev spreads), you're guaranteed to one hit it, oh, and you're not fragile to EQ and to a LOOOOOT of other pokes, like you are with tentacruel. Ofc, he isn't fail proof, nor ''newbie'' proof, but are you really going to let crobat in the face of a flygon or anyone able to completely destroy him? So many variables to take into consideration, there's no ''direct'' counter to him because it all depends on the moveset he's running, sleep power, growth, growth, giga, and bye tentacruel pretty much.

 

I would like to ask, how about the Liquid Ooze variants? I noticed in your calculations that you did not cite Liquid Ooze variants of Tentacruel. Even if Tentacruel faints, you can still do a ton of damage to Venusaur's health. Crobat is a good alternative as well, but I think that Tentacruel is also a viable option as well.

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redspawn   
10 minutes ago, Bestfriends said:

I would like to ask, how about the Liquid Ooze variants? I noticed in your calculations that you did not cite Liquid Ooze variants of Tentacruel. Even if Tentacruel faints, you can still do a ton of damage to Venusaur's health. Crobat is a good alternative as well, but I think that Tentacruel is also a viable option as well.

Didn't I mention that tho? If he gets to overgrown which is likely to happen, he'll finish tenta. I'll get back to you tomorrow morning, rather sleeping so this might have a mistake here and there, sorry.

 

0 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 58-70 (31 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Let's say you switch tenta when venu growths once, 

+2 252+ SpA Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Tentacruel: 84-99 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

he should be losing 22.5 to 27.5% hp here. This means he's still alive.  In this scenario the trade will be 1 for 1, with tentacruel surviving with little hp, meaning he's now useless if another sweeper shows up, so you literally sacrificed one spot of your team to counter a potential scenario which might not happen most of the time. Aka this is fine for counter teaming, the same can be said about houndoom, but in practise is a lot harder to actually get this to work properly, if he has life orb, it will be a 1 for 1 trade, which render tentacruel a dead weight to the team. There's also one more scenario to take into consideration that is Growth -> Tentacruel Switches in -> Ice beam -> Sleep -> Growth -> Growth -> +3 Giga, which will guarantee you the 2hitko, taking down both venu and tentacruel. I'll calc this better tomorrow, I'm pretty sure I messed up somewhere cause the calcs don't check up with my previous ones, clueless to where I messed up but will re-calc tomorrow to make sure.

Edited by redspawn

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2 minutes ago, redspawn said:

Didn't I mention that tho? If he gets to overgrown which is likely to happen, he'll finish tenta. I'll get back to you tomorrow morning, rather sleeping so this might have a mistake here and there, sorry.

 

0 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 58-70 (31 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Let's say you switch tenta when venu growths once, 

+2 252+ SpA Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Tentacruel: 84-99 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

he should be losing 22.5 to 27.5% hp here. This means he's still alive. Now consider a tentacruel with some sp.atk investments. In this scenario the trade will be 1 for 1, with tentacruel surviving with little hp, meaning he's now useless if another sweeper shows up, so you literally sacrificed one spot of your team to counter a potential scenario which might not happen most of the time. Aka this is fine for counter teaming, the same can be said about houndoom, but in practise is a lot harder to actually get this to work properly, if he has life orb, it will be a 1 for 1 trade, which render tentacruel a dead weight to the team. There's also one more scenario to take into consideration that is Growth -> Tentacruel Switches in -> Ice beam -> Sleep -> Growth -> Growth -> +3 Giga, which will guarantee you the 2hitko, taking down both venu and tentacruel. 

You mentioned a good point. If you want to kill Venusaur and it has already used Growth two times then a suicidal team mate is also an option as well. Liquid Ooze is in my view, one of the best abilities to counter act Giga Drains. Crobat is usable, but if you really want to eliminate Venusaur with little to no work, then Tentacruel is a good option for that. I guess you can say, it is a poor man's Destiny Bond. Crobat is nice, but Venusaur is likely going to switch out and then it is still going to be running around. Knock out the Crobat and your in for a world of hurt. As for Tentacruel, you can use it as kind of a wild card. You can bait Venusaur to use growth one to two times and then you can pull the rug on your opponent by switching into Tentacruel with Liquid Ooze.

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2 minutes ago, Kepler1 said:

What do you guys think about metagross?

There are a lot of Venusaurs with Hidden Power Fire, so it is probably not a good idea.

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The best checks (not counters) I know are:

 

Tentacruel

Crobat

Arcanine (spdef builded)

Ninetales (spdef builded)

Flareon (spdef builded)

Altaria (spdef builded)

Gardevoir

Charizard (sludge bomb hurts, but still work with some predict)

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gbwead   

Spdef Weezing is also pretty good against Venusaur. I would consider it a counter.

Edited by gbwead

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gbwead   
Just now, Maelstrom said:

I tought about spdef weez too, but isn't crobat better?

The biggest advantage Weezing has over Crobat is less weaknesses. Spdef Weezing would for instance be able to switch with more ease against Porygon, Tentacruel or Milotic. Crobat is usually a better switch against Heracross unless Heracross does Rock Slide and then spdef Weezing would definetly be better.

 

Weezing is also a better choice if you seek to stall since Pain Split/Wow are better for longevity and Haze usually is better on Weezing than Crobat. 

 

Overall, Crobat pressures the opponent while Weezing stalls the opponent. For that reason, Crobat is imo a high risk/high reward Venusaur counter while Weezing is a low risk/low reward Venusaur counter.

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Careful DD Altaria with Fly.

+1 80 Atk Altaria Fly vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 150-176 (96.1 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Altaria: 69-82 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+1 80 Atk Altaria Fly vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 104-126 (55.6 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Altaria: 39-46 (21.4 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

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