[1v1] Saved by the Bell (Sunday 1st October)

[xStarr]

1 hour ago, Telf said:

I would actually redownload the game for this event, too bad i cant make the time :|

 

also sense 3 of its moves are banned you mine as well ban wobbu too

This is the best way  to live. Have th game uninstalled and check forums ez

Edited September 29, 2017 by xStarr

[Telf]

56 minutes ago, xStarr said:

This is the best way  to live. Have th game uninstalled and check forums ez

im not the only one who does it, hue hue hue

plus i got a new pc and then just never downloaded the game again since i never play it anymore anyway

Edited September 29, 2017 by Telf

[gbwead]

5 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

I think Counter + Mirror coat together on the same mon... Especially if it's very bulky will almost always win, especially on the likes on Wobbu or Blissey. That removes the fun from what I want this to be about. I don't want to sit watching two people use the same strats stalling each other for 40 minutes, I want them to be fast games.

 

Now... I could technically ban Mirror Coat and leave Counter... But why? They basically do the same thing. I suppose there isn't a wall that takes on all physical attackers whereas Blissey can take on all special attackers, but I don't see it being a big enough reason not to just ban both.

 

Give me more thought as to why it should be unbanned sir.

Counter or Mirror Coat doesn't prevent a pokemon from getting OHKO no matter how bulky it may be. Pokemons with Substitute win against Counter+Mirror Coat mons. Pokemons with Toxic, Leech Seed or a sleeping move usually win as well. Lvl 1 Sturdy mons win too. Actually, sturdy pokemons in general have a good chance of winning. Pokemon using a multi hit move will also win. 

 

Electrode, Wobbuffet, CORSOLA, Blastoise, Tentacruel, Girafarig, Mantine, Swampert, Grumpig, Cradily and Milotic are the only Mirror Coat users. Blastoise, Wobbuffet, Swampert and Grumpig are the only pokemons that can learn both Mirror Coat and Counter. I don't believe Swampert is top tier in 1v1 because it can learn both Mirror Coat and Counter.

 

Also, here the usage I took in a 2016 1v1 official.

 

Edited September 29, 2017 by gbwead

[KaynineXL]

7 hours ago, redspawn said:

Not saying the same looking at stats, but looking at the ability itself, isn't it just a gimmick that if the conditions doens't meet, won't do any good? Blissey leech seeded becomes a joke, you can literally stall her to dead with leech seed. Idk, I just can't see it being that big of a problem. But since you're at that consider banning sturdy+boost berries, magneton with petaya and golem with liechi, just a theory, got to run some calcs after I'm out of my job, but should also be a problem to most sweepers, magneton maybe not so much, but golem.

 

3 hours ago, gbwead said:

Counter or Mirror Coat doesn't prevent a pokemon from getting OHKO no matter how bulky it may be. Pokemons with Substitute win against Counter+Mirror Coat mons. Pokemons with Toxic, Leech Seed or a sleeping move usually win as well. Lvl 1 Sturdy mons win too. Actually, sturdy pokemons in general have a good chance of winning. Pokemon using a multi hit move will also win. 

 

Electrode, Wobbuffet, CORSOLA, Blastoise, Tentacruel, Girafarig, Mantine, Swampert, Grumpig, Cradily and Milotic are the only Mirror Coat users. Blastoise, Wobbuffet, Swampert and Grumpig are the only pokemons that can learn both Mirror Coat and Counter. I don't believe Swampert is top tier in 1v1 because it can learn both Mirror Coat and Counter.

 

Also, here the usage I took in a 2016 1v1 official.

 

 

The problem with counter and mirror coat isn't just that they're potentially OP in 1v1s... They are good yes, but my main problem with them is that it would create a tactic that's too common and could cause 40 minute games which is not what I along with (almost) everyone else wants.

 

That's why some other tactics others have said, such as the perish tactic I don't mind. It's pretty good yes, but there's plenty of good 1v1 Pokemon that can beat it and most of all, it does not promote stall. If you think I'm being unfair to stall, go ahead and let me hear it, but I just think 1v1s is about fast duels and nobody wants to be held up watching someone stall to the death because we'd literally have a finalist waiting for someone in round 1.

[Moetal]

Can we ban Sturdy? Like, sturdy magneton or golem with a berry or choices item can wreck pretty hard and there isn't any real counter play to that

Edited September 29, 2017 by Moetal

[notmudkip0]

25 minutes ago, Moetal said:

Can we ban Sturdy? Like, sturdy magneton or golem with a berry or choices item can wreck pretty hard and there isn't any real counter play to that

Multi hit moves?

[KaynineXL]

39 minutes ago, Moetal said:

Can we ban Sturdy? Like, sturdy magneton or golem with a berry or choices item can wreck pretty hard and there isn't any real counter play to that

Faster mons that don't get ohko'd beat them as well as tanks. Also Breloom could win both which isn't too uncommon in the 1v1 battles.

[razimove]

2 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

Faster mons that don't get ohko'd beat them as well as tanks. Also Breloom could win both which isn't too uncommon in the 1v1 battles.

speaking of breloom, ban focus punch maybe? To stronk for spore breloom.

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, KaynineXL said:

The problem with counter and mirror coat isn't just that they're potentially OP in 1v1s... They are good yes, but my main problem with them is that it would create a tactic that's too common and could cause 40 minute games which is not what I along with (almost) everyone else wants.

 

That's why some other tactics others have said, such as the perish tactic I don't mind. It's pretty good yes, but there's plenty of good 1v1 Pokemon that can beat it and most of all, it does not promote stall. If you think I'm being unfair to stall, go ahead and let me hear it, but I just think 1v1s is about fast duels and nobody wants to be held up watching someone stall to the death because we'd literally have a finalist waiting for someone in round 1.

Why would a duel last 40 mins because a pokemon can use mirror coat? I don't understand.

[DaftCoolio]

1 hour ago, KaynineXL said:

 

 

The problem with counter and mirror coat isn't just that they're potentially OP in 1v1s... They are good yes, but my main problem with them is that it would create a tactic that's too common and could cause 40 minute games which is not what I along with (almost) everyone else wants.

 

That's why some other tactics others have said, such as the perish tactic I don't mind. It's pretty good yes, but there's plenty of good 1v1 Pokemon that can beat it and most of all, it does not promote stall. If you think I'm being unfair to stall, go ahead and let me hear it, but I just think 1v1s is about fast duels and nobody wants to be held up watching someone stall to the death because we'd literally have a finalist waiting for someone in round 1.

Then just ban wobbu

 

Edited September 29, 2017 by DaftCoolio
My phone is bad

[KaynineXL]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Why would a duel last 40 mins because a pokemon can use mirror coat? I don't understand.

Because two people using the same mirror coat/counter tactic would never attack each other?

Just now, DaftCoolio said:

Then just ban wobbu

The only issue with Wobb is counter/mirror coat which is even better used on some other mons, why why would it be better to ban it. 

[gbwead]

30 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

Because two people using the same mirror coat/counter tactic would never attack each other?

I mean, with that logic, we would have to ban any stall pokemon. Blissey vs Blissey would last forever.

Edited September 29, 2017 by gbwead

[KaynineXL]

8 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I mean with that logic. We would have to ban any stall pokemon. Blissey vs Blissey would last forever.

Well, mr TC, how do I solve that issue?

 

I can't let people use those moves with Wobbu because it's good in 1v1s and we'd see lots of Wobbu vs Wobbu. If you say ban Wobbu, then with that logic I'd have to ban Blissey?

 

I'm trying to ban as little as possible but still have some control on which stall gets through... and as far as I'm concerned, Wobbu vs Wobbu is much much more likely. Heck, both Blissey would need to be cleric if it was to stall as well(if the Blissey's carry toxic which is probably more than likely).

[gbwead]

20 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

Well, mr TC, how do I solve that issue?

 

I can't let people use those moves with Wobbu because it's good in 1v1s and we'd see lots of Wobbu vs Wobbu. If you say ban Wobbu, then with that logic I'd have to ban Blissey?

 

I'm trying to ban as little as possible but still have some control on which stall gets through... and as far as I'm concerned, Wobbu vs Wobbu is much much more likely. Heck, both Blissey would need to be cleric if it was to stall as well(if the Blissey's carry toxic which is probably more than likely).

I don't see Wobbuffet as a big issue, but I think it's better to ban the pokemon than ban the moves.

Beside banded pokemons that can't ohko Wobbuffet and do not have trick in their moveset, what can wobbuffet win against? I feel Wobbuffet is not that great in 1v1. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by gbwead

[KaynineXL]

9 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I don't see Wobbuffet as a big issue, but I think it's better to ban the pokemon than ban the moves.

Well, one way or another Wobbu or the moves are being banned because Wobbu would be too popular to risk the 40 min stall duel. This is already decided.

 

The part that could be argued on is which part is banned. Since the moves are already banned I'll probably stick with it this time around since it probably doesn't matter to the point where it's a must to change them. Next time I'll be consulting with the TC beforehand so I don't have to deal with Elcoolio and his whispers.

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, KaynineXL said:

Well, one way or another Wobbu or the moves are being banned because Wobbu would be too popular to risk the 40 min stall duel. This is already decided.

 

The part that could be argued on is which part is banned. Since the moves are already banned I'll probably stick with it this time around. Next time I'll be consulting with the TC beforehand so I don't have to deal with Elcoolio and his whispers.

I'm really not convinced that Wobbu would be popular. It got bad victory odds imo.

[Senile]

25 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

Well, mr TC, how do I solve that issue?

 

I can't let people use those moves with Wobbu because it's good in 1v1s and we'd see lots of Wobbu vs Wobbu. If you say ban Wobbu, then with that logic I'd have to ban Blissey?

 

I'm trying to ban as little as possible but still have some control on which stall gets through... and as far as I'm concerned, Wobbu vs Wobbu is much much more likely. Heck, both Blissey would need to be cleric if it was to stall as well(if the Blissey's carry toxic which is probably more than likely).

 

Just now, KaynineXL said:

Well, one way or another Wobbu or the moves are being banned because Wobbu would be too popular to risk the 40 min stall duel. This is already decided.

 

The part that could be argued on is which part is banned. Since the moves are already banned I'll probably stick with it this time around. Next time I'll be consulting with the TC beforehand so I don't have to deal with Elcoolio and his whispers.

Well, "mr Staff", here's how to solve the issue:

 

Stop completely overrating/overhyping Wobbuffet. I don't understand where you pulled this magical assumption out of your hat of tricks that Wobbuffet is going to be so insanely popular that it will literally destroy the format and turn battles into cancerous stalls. Because, as it happens, Wobbuffet is actually kind of not at all good in 1v1.

 

What does Wobbuffet beat in 1v1? Let's see:

• Pokemon whose 4 moves are all attacking moves. Specifically, attacking moves that are all physical or all special, since if it's a mixed attacker, Wobbu has to play around a 50/50.
• ...

That's it. Even Choiced pokemon could kill Wobbuffet by running Toxic or something. Wobbuffet loses to so many fucking pokemon, it is really not very good, especially since it can't use Destiny Bond. What does it do against a pokemon with a setup move? Toxic? Substitute? Sure, if their non-attacking move doesn't boost their attacking power and has low enough PP, Wobbu might be able to stall them out and force them to attack, or they might have to play around them a bit to conserve PP so they don't run out of Counter or Mirror Coat or whatever, but realistically, it's safe to say Wobbuffet just has a losing matchup against most pokemon. And if it's matchups are that bad, why the fuck is it going to be so incredibly popular?

 

Especially considering, you know, how many people are running around with a comp-ready wobbuffet, and are convinced of it's godly powers in 1v1? Much less PP maxed ones, since it'll probably end up PP stalling to even have a chance of trying to win some matchups. Even in the INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY situation it does end up 1v1, just put in a rule that Wobbuffet 1v1s will be decided by a literal coinflip by staff or something to save time.

 

tl;dr guy i hate this anti wobbu agenda so much smh

[DaftCoolio]

9 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

Well, one way or another Wobbu or the moves are being banned because Wobbu would be too popular to risk the 40 min stall duel. This is already decided.

 

The part that could be argued on is which part is banned. Since the moves are already banned I'll probably stick with it this time around since it probably doesn't matter to the point where it's a must to change them. Next time I'll be consulting with the TC beforehand so I don't have to deal with Elcoolio and his whispers.

good call, ban two moves that are viable on a bunch of pokemon instead of banning one pokemon that barely gets used

[KaynineXL]

49 minutes ago, Senile said:

 

Well, "mr Staff", here's how to solve the issue:

 

Stop completely overrating/overhyping Wobbuffet. I don't understand where you pulled this magical assumption out of your hat of tricks that Wobbuffet is going to be so insanely popular that it will literally destroy the format and turn battles into cancerous stalls. Because, as it happens, Wobbuffet is actually kind of not at all good in 1v1.

 

What does Wobbuffet beat in 1v1? Let's see:

• Pokemon whose 4 moves are all attacking moves. Specifically, attacking moves that are all physical or all special, since if it's a mixed attacker, Wobbu has to play around a 50/50.
• ...

That's it. Even Choiced pokemon could kill Wobbuffet by running Toxic or something. Wobbuffet loses to so many fucking pokemon, it is really not very good, especially since it can't use Destiny Bond. What does it do against a pokemon with a setup move? Toxic? Substitute? Sure, if their non-attacking move doesn't boost their attacking power and has low enough PP, Wobbu might be able to stall them out and force them to attack, or they might have to play around them a bit to conserve PP so they don't run out of Counter or Mirror Coat or whatever, but realistically, it's safe to say Wobbuffet just has a losing matchup against most pokemon. And if it's matchups are that bad, why the fuck is it going to be so incredibly popular?

 

Especially considering, you know, how many people are running around with a comp-ready wobbuffet, and are convinced of it's godly powers in 1v1? Much less PP maxed ones, since it'll probably end up PP stalling to even have a chance of trying to win some matchups. Even in the INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY situation it does end up 1v1, just put in a rule that Wobbuffet 1v1s will be decided by a literal coinflip by staff or something to save time.

 

tl;dr guy i hate this anti wobbu agenda so much smh

Am I pulling this magical assumption out of my hat of tricks? The last 1v1 official(I believe) had the tier council ban Wobbu, so it's not like I just randomly thought on my own that it's too strong and should not be allowed to be used, even though I do believe that. <- apologies, I actually did think that, but it was actually because the last 1v1 used a copy and paste from an OU official, so I assumed the TC had it banned. EDIT: Actually, I just found another which I believe is the most recent ubers 1v1 that had Wobbu banned here. 

 

Next time I do one of these gimmick tournaments, I'll be sure to bring it up with the TC. 

 

47 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

good call, ban two moves that are viable on a bunch of pokemon instead of banning one pokemon that barely gets used

You say barely gets used but but I've never seen it unbanned in a 1v1 tournament, so how could we know if it barely gets used?

[Senile]

1 minute ago, KaynineXL said:

Am I pulling this magical assumption out of my hat of tricks? The last 1v1 official(I believe) had the tier council ban Wobbu, so it's not like I just randomly thought on my own that it's too strong and should not be allowed to be used, even though I do believe that.

 

Next time I do one of these gimmick tournaments, I'll be sure to bring it up with the TC. 

 

You say barely get used but but I've never seen it unbanned in a 1v1 tournament, so how could we know if it barely gets used?

So allow me to establish a few things, just to clear things up:

 

Yes, Wobbuffet has always been banned in 1v1s. Pretty sure I was on the council waaaaaay back when the first one was hosted with the banlist to boot.

 

I'm going to spoil things for you and ruin Santa Claus; It was never banned because it's too good. I'm going to give you the incredibly simple reason it stayed initially banned:

 

1. Wobbuffet vs Wobbuffet is kind of annoying.
2. Wobbuffet is Uber, and all the Ubers were originally also banned from 1v1.
3. Nobody really cares if it's banned or not, because it's not like it's that great, and we don't lose much of anything of value by having it banned.

That's...about it. It's banned because who cares about unbanning it, it's wobbuffet, best case scenario like 1 guy uses it and loses, worst case scenario some smartasses end up in a long ass stall and we hope one of them encores the other into an early struggle so everyone watching doesn't have to kill themselves. Of course, this could be solved by the coinflip scenario I proposed earlier, but like I said, it's not like not having it around is a big deal so it being banned wasn't even worth arguing.

 

So, although the original reasoning may have been lost to the tides of time, it's safe to say it still exists. So, yes, you did randomly think on your own that it's too strong and shouldn't be allowed, because that's not the reason it was banned in the first place. It is, and I quote, a "magical assumption out of (your) hat of tricks".

 

Granted, your assumption is an obvious one, I can't blame you for assuming that it was the case; Of course, it is still an assumption, and is still incorrect.

 

Also, "YOU SAY IT'S BARELY USED BUT IT'S NEVER BEEN ALLOWED SO HOW WOULD WE KNOW xDDD" is so incredibly infuriating to me it physically causes me pain. Especially because it has nothing to do with what he said??? Yes, "it barely gets used" can't technically be known since it's stayed banned, but you're literally completely ignoring the point of the sentence, which isn't "Wobbuffet is barely used", it's "Why ban those moves instead of just Wobbuffet, which was already  banned to begin with?". You literally hard left turned, swerved around the entire intention of what the sentence was supposed to mean, so you could smugly refute his statement without actually addressing what he said in literally any meaningful way whatsoever. Why did you even bother quoting him and responding if that's what you were going to say?

 

Especially since, you know, in my post that you also quoted, I already established a good amount of reasoning as to why it wouldn't be used often at all. And while you might not be able to know for sure, you're literally never going to know for sure if it stays banned forever, and if we have no factual tested basis and you won't accept the hypothetical arguments, then it's not like it's possible to convince you on the matter either way.

 

So to wrap this up, a few things:

1. If you believe Wobbuffet is too good, I would love to hear your reasoning. I've already explained why I completely disagree and provided, what I believe, is pretty good reasoning.
2. The logical question after reading all this is "b-b-b-but SEEEENILE, why are you bothering at all? you just said it stayed banned because nobody cared to unban it, why are you advocating it now?". Well, it's quite simple; I'm not really advocating it all that much. However, I am more than a little rubbed the wrong way by the flaunting around of Wobbuffet being unquestionably broken as indisputable fact, the abrasive responses ("mr TC"? r u real right now?) to people who's jobs are to provide input on this and completely sidestepping their arguments through the original assumption. ("Well, one way or another Wobbu is getting banned... This is already decided"). So, yes, I don't really care if Wobbuffet is unbanned or not, because it's not a big deal, even though it's definitely not broken. I do however disagree with pretty much everything else you've done/said in this thread up until this point, and proving my point that Wobbuffet would not actually be broken is the best method to illustrate this.

So, that's about it. You'll probably respond with "Next time I'll get TC input", maybe in bold for emphasis since you already said it. However, considering the Wobbuffet issue is completely tangential to my main problem, I wouldn't bother.

 

With that being said, if literally anyone is actually convinced Wobbuffet would be problematic, I'd be more than happy to argue it with you. With that being said, I heavily doubt it.

[KaynineXL]

4 minutes ago, Senile said:

So allow me to establish a few things, just to clear things up:

 

Yes, Wobbuffet has always been banned in 1v1s. Pretty sure I was on the council waaaaaay back when the first one was hosted with the banlist to boot.

 

I'm going to spoil things for you and ruin Santa Claus; It was never banned because it's too good. I'm going to give you the incredibly simple reason it stayed initially banned:

 

1. Wobbuffet vs Wobbuffet is kind of annoying.
2. Wobbuffet is Uber, and all the Ubers were originally also banned from 1v1.
3. Nobody really cares if it's banned or not, because it's not like it's that great, and we don't lose much of anything of value by having it banned.

That's...about it. It's banned because who cares about unbanning it, it's wobbuffet, best case scenario like 1 guy uses it and loses, worst case scenario some smartasses end up in a long ass stall and we hope one of them encores the other into an early struggle so everyone watching doesn't have to kill themselves. Of course, this could be solved by the coinflip scenario I proposed earlier, but like I said, it's not like not having it around is a big deal so it being banned wasn't even worth arguing.

 

So, although the original reasoning may have been lost to the tides of time, it's safe to say it still exists. So, yes, you did randomly think on your own that it's too strong and shouldn't be allowed, because that's not the reason it was banned in the first place. It is, and I quote, a "magical assumption out of (your) hat of tricks".

 

Granted, your assumption is an obvious one, I can't blame you for assuming that it was the case; Of course, it is still an assumption, and is still incorrect.

 

Also, "YOU SAY IT'S BARELY USED BUT IT'S NEVER BEEN ALLOWED SO HOW WOULD WE KNOW xDDD" is so incredibly infuriating to me it physically causes me pain. Especially because it has nothing to do with what he said??? Yes, "it barely gets used" can't technically be known since it's stayed banned, but you're literally completely ignoring the point of the sentence, which isn't "Wobbuffet is barely used", it's "Why ban those moves instead of just Wobbuffet, which was already  banned to begin with?". You literally hard left turned, swerved around the entire intention of what the sentence was supposed to mean, so you could smugly refute his statement without actually addressing what he said in literally any meaningful way whatsoever. Why did you even bother quoting him and responding if that's what you were going to say?

 

Especially since, you know, in my post that you also quoted, I already established a good amount of reasoning as to why it wouldn't be used often at all. And while you might not be able to know for sure, you're literally never going to know for sure if it stays banned forever, and if we have no factual tested basis and you won't accept the hypothetical arguments, then it's not like it's possible to convince you on the matter either way.

 

So to wrap this up, a few things:

1. If you believe Wobbuffet is too good, I would love to hear your reasoning. I've already explained why I completely disagree and provided, what I believe, is pretty good reasoning.
2. The logical question after reading all this is "b-b-b-but SEEEENILE, why are you bothering at all? you just said it stayed banned because nobody cared to unban it, why are you advocating it now?". Well, it's quite simple; I'm not really advocating it all that much. However, I am more than a little rubbed the wrong way by the flaunting around of Wobbuffet being unquestionably broken as indisputable fact, the abrasive responses ("mr TC"? r u real right now?) to people who's jobs are to provide input on this and completely sidestepping their arguments through the original assumption. ("Well, one way or another Wobbu is getting banned... This is already decided"). So, yes, I don't really care if Wobbuffet is unbanned or not, because it's not a big deal, even though it's definitely not broken. I do however disagree with pretty much everything else you've done/said in this thread up until this point, and proving my point that Wobbuffet would not actually be broken is the best method to illustrate this.

So, that's about it. You'll probably respond with "Next time I'll get TC input", maybe in bold for emphasis since you already said it. However, considering the Wobbuffet issue is completely tangential to my main problem, I wouldn't bother.

 

With that being said, if literally anyone is actually convinced Wobbuffet would be problematic, I'd be more than happy to argue it with you. With that being said, I heavily doubt it.

So we're going around in circles here. Heck, you even know what my exact responses would be, so I'm not even sure it's worth replying about the solution.

 

I hope my "mr TC" didn't offend you, I genuinely wanted to know the thoughts of TC as a whole on the matter. You seem to have answered that in your most recent post anyway, I'll do my best to use this additional information in the future.

[Gunthug]

Freds probably the only guy with a comp wobbu anyway and I'm pretty sure it's rotting in my pc 

[Toast]

fuck senile where did u come from lmao

[Gilan]

1 hour ago, Toast said:

fuck senile where did u come from lmao

I forgot how much I missed reading his blocks of text.

[KaynineXL]

Reminder that this event is today.

 

Sign ups in just under 3 hours.