Jump to content
  • 1

New meta is coming (part 1/2)


ReDellaStrada47

Question

OK, I haven’t been much on the forum in past months, so excuse me if this it’s been already discussed (in that case link me the discussion :) ).

I have 2 proposals for the meta.
I know there will be a big update (4-5 gens), but I think it’s better start discussing some issues before, in order to be prepared for the future (and fix it before it’s broken lol).

I divided the 2 proposals in 2 different threads, because they can be implemented separately, so it’s better to keep the 2 discussions separate.

 

Idea number 1: Item Clause

I’ve already discussed this an year ago.

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/61085-what-about%E2%80%A6-4th-gen/&

But the situation today it’s a little different.

If, as it seems, we will have 4gen and 5gen pokemons, items and moves, then we could implement this rule.

The reason is very simple: have a better meta.

 

Why should we do this?

As I said in the old topic: «I'm watching the OU tournament right now... 45 minutes in and it's still a 3v3».
This makes the Pokemmo’s meta too boring, unfortunately :(
Too many tanks, too many walls. And, honestly, sometimes dumb strategy: just stall and wait.

 

«Why don’t you just use Knock off, man?»

Well… why did we ban Chansey, or Gengar, or Dugtrio or Snorlax? If you MUST use a single item/pokemon/move in order to counter a singular item/pokemon/move, then there is a problem to be fixed.

And there aren’t good Knock off users, at the moment.

 

MAYBE in the new meta there will be a lot of good Knock off users, and the problem will disappear… but I’d like to discuss this anyway, because I think that this adds a lot more strategy (there’s a reason if vgc has it): if you already have a pokemon with Leftovers, then you have to use Black Sludge, so you need a Poison pokemon, just for example.

We will not be forced to ban Focus Sash or Eviolite because of abusers, nor some pokemons (Dusclops, Porygon2, Chansey, just talking about Eviolite).

 

I think that we can’t introduce such a rule NOW, but what about the future?
With 4th and 5th gen’s items I think it’d be possible, because there would be a lot more items (I would add Assault Vest too, but it’s another story).

 

Tell me what you think about it :D

Link to comment

Recommended Posts

  • 0
4 minutes ago, londark said:

Megas dont count since those are considered "stand alone" pokes. Items can be banned from tiers tho (like Soul Dew was, not sure if it`s still banned, but i guess it is since i`ve never seem it in OU)

You'll see some mega stones banned from most metagames as it's as a way to ban that mega. Soul Dew has been unbanned in S/M because it got a harsh nerf.

Link to comment
  • 0

Didn`t know about the soul dew nerf, but i guess i now know why i`ve never seen it used...

About the megas it`s pretty much the same thing. Banning Mega Luke or the stone has the same effect (unless you want to run it on something else, but really...). Just wording difference, the point is the same

Link to comment
  • 0
3 hours ago, londark said:

Honestly, i can`t think of many cases where smogon banned a SINGLE pokemon only when using X Ability/Move/Item, insted of banning them, especially in lower tiers where you can/could find some funny bans like Smash Shell some time ago. Blaziken was and is (i guess, haven`t seen anything about it latelly) uber, not just SB Blaziken. Arena Trap just got banned, not Arena Trap Dug. 

 

As far as i know, there were never any X pokemon in OU with Y item, while it`s UU without. Megas dont count since those are considered "stand alone" pokes. Items can be banned from tiers tho (like Soul Dew was, not sure if it`s still banned, but i guess it is since i`ve never seem it in OU)

About blaziken, they just don't make exceptions for an ability, they ban the pokemon and that's it. Otherwise speed boost sharpedo and ninjask would also get hammered into uber for no reason.

Link to comment
  • 0
5 hours ago, redspawn said:

About blaziken, they just don't make exceptions for an ability, they ban the pokemon and that's it. Otherwise speed boost sharpedo and ninjask would also get hammered into uber for no reason.

I'm not sure you understand what i'm saying. I was correcting the guy saying that clomplex bans on moves/abilities/items let some pokes go around different tiers. It's not like that.

 

I also have no idea about the exceptions you are talking about. There have been cases where an ability made a single pokemon too strong, causing the ban of the pokemon itself (just like SB-Ken, like i said previously) but there were and are also cases where a single move or ability got banned cause of it's disturbing presence, like AT that got completly banned, or Baton Pass, or D/D in UU etc.  

Link to comment
  • 0
4 hours ago, londark said:

I'm not sure you understand what i'm saying. I was correcting the guy saying that clomplex bans on moves/abilities/items let some pokes go around different tiers. It's not like that.

 

I also have no idea about the exceptions you are talking about. There have been cases where an ability made a single pokemon too strong, causing the ban of the pokemon itself (just like SB-Ken, like i said previously) but there were and are also cases where a single move or ability got banned cause of it's disturbing presence, like AT that got completly banned, or Baton Pass, or D/D in UU etc.  

The exceptions would be banning a single ability from a pokemon, they instead just ban the overall pokemon into uber, which is the right move if you ask me.

Link to comment
  • 0

Agree, singles tend to have this kind of problems where matches last forever and if item clause can help to reduce that, I'm all for it, item clause already works well in vgc so I'm sure it will work well for singles too. Do the doubles here even have item clause? I sure hope so and if not, we need it.

Link to comment
  • 0

I doubt the tier council is even going to place a restriction on items unless they are forced to, (Such as say a lot of not fully evolved mons using Eviolite that are walls (Looking at Chansey/Lickitung(not so much)/Dusclops) Even if Knock Off is run all the time, which if every team is using eviolite on all their mons, odds are they won't be using Knock Off but who knows. 

(Though if Little Cup is an official tier, I'd hope they would ban eviolite but that is just me)

Link to comment
  • 0

Some jokes on this thread, leftover argument, matches taking to long? That's the best one.

Singles compared to VGC, nice!

How about you stop crying and actually understand that if the match is taking too long, you're also at fault for not having wall breakers in your team? Build a proper team, and no match should take longer thna 25-30 mins, unless you also go with 6 walls.

Link to comment
  • 0
6 hours ago, Kite said:

(Though if Little Cup is an official tier, I'd hope they would ban eviolite but that is just me)

Little Cup is an official tier but it needs a lot of work. I am hoping to see the Tier Council spend some time on it but for now I understand their focus on the three main tiers, they have a lot of work to do. 

 

I am, however, interested in your reasoning that Eviolite should be banned in Little Cup because (as far as I am aware) it was never banned from Little Cup in the past. But this is perhaps an argument for a different time/thread.

Link to comment
  • 0
2 hours ago, Noad said:

Little Cup is an official tier but it needs a lot of work. I am hoping to see the Tier Council spend some time on it but for now I understand their focus on the three main tiers, they have a lot of work to do. 

 

I am, however, interested in your reasoning that Eviolite should be banned in Little Cup because (as far as I am aware) it was never banned from Little Cup in the past. But this is perhaps an argument for a different time/thread.

I know its for a different time but since you are interested in my reasoning, but from my experience playing little cup on smogon, everyone either runs Eviolite or Berry Juice and maybe Choice Scarf and maybe focus sash (For abras mostly), nothing else, this in my humble opinion, over centralizes team building. Only 54 mons can actually use Knock Off (Including Gen 7) which may be a lot, but only 22 of them are actually viable/obtainable. (Some are a bit iffy which are the pansear/sage/pour) Which on the off chance they are not optimal for Knock Off then really only 19, then how many of these 19 will actually be available? 16 At least (Also not counting the pansear/sage/pour mons otherwise 19 and didn't count the Gen 4 pokemon as I don't know which will be available).

 

Link to comment
  • 0
18 minutes ago, Kite said:

I know its for a different time but since you are interested in my reasoning, but from my experience playing little cup on smogon, everyone either runs Eviolite or Berry Juice and maybe Choice Scarf and maybe focus sash (For abras mostly), nothing else, this in my humble opinion, over centralizes team building. Only 54 mons can actually use Knock Off (Including Gen 7) which may be a lot, but only 22 of them are actually viable/obtainable. (Some are a bit iffy which are the pansear/sage/pour) Which on the off chance they are not optimal for Knock Off then really only 19, then how many of these 19 will actually be available? 16 At least (Also not counting the pansear/sage/pour mons otherwise 19 and didn't count the Gen 4 pokemon as I don't know which will be available).

 

From the (lot) of LC I played in XY, I can say this is a pretty big misunderstanding of how Eviolite actually effects LC. I'm not going to speak on Berry Juice, because that's something completely different, and something that could actually be decently argued to be banned in LC depending on what the meta looks like.

 

So, first of all, Eviolite is not run on every pokemon. However, it is run on (almost) every defensive pokemon. With that being said, that does not mean it "over centralizes team building", unless you're also positing that Leftovers over centralizes regular tiers with it being ubiquitous on defensive pokemon, which, in case it isn't obvious, I heavily disagree with.

 

90% of defensive pokemon running Eviolite in LC isn't because it's broken, it's because it is far and away the best option for them, much like Leftovers on most defensive pokemon. Why is that the case? Well, the most obvious reason is that Leftovers in LC is straight up complete garbage, to the point where even if Eviolite was banned, Leftovers still would see 0 serious use in the tier. If anything, they would switch to Berry Juice, an item that some defensive pokemon in LC use over Eviolite anyway, so even defensively, it's not like Eviolite is 100% dominant.

 

There's also the fact that LC is an incredibly offensively oriented tier. Stall does not have an easy team in LC, even with Eviolite. Without it, LC would be waaaaay more centralized, only instead of around "Eviolite" like you claim, it'd be centralized over heavy offense. Eviolite doesn't centralize the meta around itself, it gives archetypes other than highly offensive leaning teams a fighting chance.

 

Additionally, it's true there are very few viable items in LC, but this isn't the fault of Eviolite, it's an inherent problem in LC. A lot of items that are good/viable in normal formats are really garbage in LC.

 

Choice Band/Choice Specs are comparatively significantly worse in LC than in normal tiers. Why? Because the difference between them and Life Orb in power is actually a lot less significant in LC, and the recoil damage from it is also a lot less significant. So, Life Orb >>> Choice Band/Specs in a very large majority of situations. Choice Scarf is still run because unlike the other two, it isn't mostly outclassed, and speed tiers are really significant in LC.

 

Leftovers, again, are garbage in LC. Although unlike CB/CS, it's not because it's outclassed, it's because the higher damage outputs + the insignificance of it's healing makes it completely useless in LC on pretty much anything.

 

So, assuming Berry Juice isn't banned, the items we'll see in LC will probably be Eviolite/Berry Juice/Choice Scarf/Life Orb, with some type gems and maybe some berries thrown in. Without Berry Juice/Eviolite, we'll see Choice Scarf, Life Orb, some type gems and some berries thrown in, and defensive teams are basically garbage. I don't know about you, but no Eviolite doesn't actually sound much more diverse at all.

Link to comment
  • 0
54 minutes ago, Senile said:

From the (lot) of LC I played in XY, I can say this is a pretty big misunderstanding of how Eviolite actually effects LC. I'm not going to speak on Berry Juice, because that's something completely different, and something that could actually be decently argued to be banned in LC depending on what the meta looks like.

 

So, first of all, Eviolite is not run on every pokemon. However, it is run on (almost) every defensive pokemon. With that being said, that does not mean it "over centralizes team building", unless you're also positing that Leftovers over centralizes regular tiers with it being ubiquitous on defensive pokemon, which, in case it isn't obvious, I heavily disagree with.

 

90% of defensive pokemon running Eviolite in LC isn't because it's broken, it's because it is far and away the best option for them, much like Leftovers on most defensive pokemon. Why is that the case? Well, the most obvious reason is that Leftovers in LC is straight up complete garbage, to the point where even if Eviolite was banned, Leftovers still would see 0 serious use in the tier. If anything, they would switch to Berry Juice, an item that some defensive pokemon in LC use over Eviolite anyway, so even defensively, it's not like Eviolite is 100% dominant.

 

There's also the fact that LC is an incredibly offensively oriented tier. Stall does not have an easy team in LC, even with Eviolite. Without it, LC would be waaaaay more centralized, only instead of around "Eviolite" like you claim, it'd be centralized over heavy offense. Eviolite doesn't centralize the meta around itself, it gives archetypes other than highly offensive leaning teams a fighting chance.

 

Additionally, it's true there are very few viable items in LC, but this isn't the fault of Eviolite, it's an inherent problem in LC. A lot of items that are good/viable in normal formats are really garbage in LC.

 

Choice Band/Choice Specs are comparatively significantly worse in LC than in normal tiers. Why? Because the difference between them and Life Orb in power is actually a lot less significant in LC, and the recoil damage from it is also a lot less significant. So, Life Orb >>> Choice Band/Specs in a very large majority of situations. Choice Scarf is still run because unlike the other two, it isn't mostly outclassed, and speed tiers are really significant in LC.

 

Leftovers, again, are garbage in LC. Although unlike CB/CS, it's not because it's outclassed, it's because the higher damage outputs + the insignificance of it's healing makes it completely useless in LC on pretty much anything.

 

So, assuming Berry Juice isn't banned, the items we'll see in LC will probably be Eviolite/Berry Juice/Choice Scarf/Life Orb, with some type gems and maybe some berries thrown in. Without Berry Juice/Eviolite, we'll see Choice Scarf, Life Orb, some type gems and some berries thrown in, and defensive teams are basically garbage. I don't know about you, but no Eviolite doesn't actually sound much more diverse at all.

I respect your post first of all.

Second, my opinion is based as a "new" player's perspective (In terms of Little Cup) where every team I ran across was running Eviolite on about 4-5 of their mons. Or ran across them a lot more than other items being used. I will admit, I did forget about Life Orb though (which of course is based on Smogon). Hence I see it over centralizing team building. (Which new player's insight to a tier can be valuable)

As for leftovers, I see a lot more items being used than leftovers in other places (PokeMMO/Smogon wise), Choice Bands, Scarfs, Specs, Life Orb, Assault Vest, Leftovers, Black Sludge, Figy Berry, Salac Berry, Custap Berry, (Other berries that halve super effective hits like Yache Berry for Dragonite), Weakness Policy, Kings Rock, Normal Gem, Flying Gem, Expert Belt, Air Balloon, Shed Hull (I think its called mostly to let stuff like Ferrothorn/Skarmory swap out against Magnezone), Toxic Orb, Flame Orb. Of course as of right now, We don't have as many items as gen 5 but with Gen 5 on the horizon I thought it would be safe to assume to include those items as well which is a lot more than what Little Cup has to offer in terms of a comparison.

But a lot of it is a wait and see type of thing.

Edited by Kite
Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.