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ReDellaStrada47

New meta is coming (part 1/2)

Question

OK, I haven’t been much on the forum in past months, so excuse me if this it’s been already discussed (in that case link me the discussion :) ).

I have 2 proposals for the meta.
I know there will be a big update (4-5 gens), but I think it’s better start discussing some issues before, in order to be prepared for the future (and fix it before it’s broken lol).

I divided the 2 proposals in 2 different threads, because they can be implemented separately, so it’s better to keep the 2 discussions separate.

 

Idea number 1: Item Clause

I’ve already discussed this an year ago.

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/61085-what-about%E2%80%A6-4th-gen/&

But the situation today it’s a little different.

If, as it seems, we will have 4gen and 5gen pokemons, items and moves, then we could implement this rule.

The reason is very simple: have a better meta.

 

Why should we do this?

As I said in the old topic: «I'm watching the OU tournament right now... 45 minutes in and it's still a 3v3».
This makes the Pokemmo’s meta too boring, unfortunately :(
Too many tanks, too many walls. And, honestly, sometimes dumb strategy: just stall and wait.

 

«Why don’t you just use Knock off, man?»

Well… why did we ban Chansey, or Gengar, or Dugtrio or Snorlax? If you MUST use a single item/pokemon/move in order to counter a singular item/pokemon/move, then there is a problem to be fixed.

And there aren’t good Knock off users, at the moment.

 

MAYBE in the new meta there will be a lot of good Knock off users, and the problem will disappear… but I’d like to discuss this anyway, because I think that this adds a lot more strategy (there’s a reason if vgc has it): if you already have a pokemon with Leftovers, then you have to use Black Sludge, so you need a Poison pokemon, just for example.

We will not be forced to ban Focus Sash or Eviolite because of abusers, nor some pokemons (Dusclops, Porygon2, Chansey, just talking about Eviolite).

 

I think that we can’t introduce such a rule NOW, but what about the future?
With 4th and 5th gen’s items I think it’d be possible, because there would be a lot more items (I would add Assault Vest too, but it’s another story).

 

Tell me what you think about it :D

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Item Clause is too restrictive to teambuilding, defensive and stall teams require the passive recovery of leftovers, offensive teams need power from multiple life orbs/choice items.

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7 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

Item Clause is too restrictive to teambuilding, defensive and stall teams require the passive recovery of leftovers, offensive teams need power from multiple life orbs/choice items.

Item clause may not be as restrictive anymore in teambuilding for defensive teams, we will now have pokemon that can use Black Sludge / Eviolite / Assault Vest / Leftovers, that's 4 slots where pokemon are very bulky, and that's not considering possible Sitrus Berry Harvest sets for exeggutor / tropius or even sets like Flame Orb Sigilyph.

 

Pokemon can be defensive without 6 leftovers, or even defensive items at all, such as the aforementioned Sigilyph ;p

Edited by Matoka

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No, Item Clause doesn't fix anything. It's a clause that serves no actual purpose.

 

It's not that Leftovers is the only thing that makes lots of walls usable. Chansey was very often used with Shed Hull to be prevented from getting trapped and it still did its job amazingly. All you seem to do here is to dislike that Leftovers makes the metagame stally (and yes, I hate Leftovers too) but making a whole rule to prevent the use of multiple items seems a bit of a stretch to deal with one item being annoyingly good. And realistically it doesn't even solve anything when all the multiple berries will become a thing. People just come workarounds to stall and like I said, many walls don't often need Leftovers to be annoying.

 

If there's a problem with metagame being boring, then a discussion should be raised whether some defensive Pokemon or cores are too powerful in our metagame. Adding Item Clause just because it might add some positive things to something isn't really a way to deal with a problem like this.

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Just now, Matoka said:

Black Sludge / Eviolite

Restricted to poison types and NFEs, respectively.

 

Just now, Matoka said:

Assault Vest

Designed more for bulky sweepers, since it restricts the use of non-attacking moves.

 

1 minute ago, Matoka said:

Sitrus Berry Harvest sets for exeggutor or even sets like Flame Orb Sigilyph

It's not really good to force tactics like these to have a full defensive team.

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4 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

Restricted to poison types and NFEs, respectively.

 

Designed more for bulky sweepers, since it restricts the use of non-attacking moves.

 

It's not really good to force tactics like these to have a full defensive team.

Was just giving examples about how it MIGHT not be as immediately terrible as it sounds, never said I wanted it or supported it, was just stating that there are stall options that don't use Lefties, and I would count some Assault Vest sets as stally rather than sweepy.

Edited by Matoka

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Just now, ReDellaStrada47 said:

Ehm... VGC official tournament?

VGC is not comparable to singles, at all. if you meant purely for double battles then specify.

 

OU / UU / NU / (RU?) Singles in the new meta have entirely different implications for having Item Clause than VGC does.

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6 minutes ago, ReDellaStrada47 said:

Ehm... VGC official tournament?

>comparing VGC to singles

Wew lad, have you not noticed the plethora of differences between these metagames? VGC is a doubles 4v4 format, not a singles 6v6 one. Teams rarely need to utilize the same effect of an item, since you'll have things like weather/trick room setters and sweepers on your team, or pokemon with focus sash or berries. Instant recovery is much more valuable in a doubles environment, so leftovers is less common.

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6 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

>comparing VGC to singles

Wew lad, have you not noticed the plethora of differences between these metagames? VGC is a doubles 4v4 format, not a singles 6v6 one. Teams rarely need to utilize the same effect of an item, since you'll have things like weather/trick room setters and sweepers on your team, or pokemon with focus sash or berries. Instant recovery is much more valuable in a doubles environment, so leftovers is less common.

Sorry, but this makes no sense at all  XD

 

 

You said " too restrictive to teambuilding ", and I simply "proved" that this is false, because there is VGC, where you can EASLY build a team of 6 Pokemon (yeah, you use only 4, but you still build a 4 Pokemon team with 4 different items) with 6 different items.

 

And there are A LOT of different items in 5/6 gen, so it's not so hard to build a team, but you force people to use their brain, at least a little.

And as I understood, Pokemon is a strategy videogame, so... it's a good thing.

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Just now, ReDellaStrada47 said:

You said " too restrictive to teambuilding ", and I simply "proved" that this is false, because there is VGC, where you can EASLY build a team of 6 Pokemon (yeah, you use only 4, but you still build a 4 Pokemon team with 4 different items) with 6 different items.

Because it's a different fucking format and metagame, did you just skip past that?

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Comparing the differences between PokeMMO and VGC is irrelevant anyways. We have decided we will make our own rules, the best rules we can think of for an exciting competitive game. Sure, we've taken lots of concepts from likes of Smogon but at the end of the day we can do the things the way we want here. Even though there is an Item Clause in the official format (VGC) but if we don't see an actual purpose for it here then we have no reason to obtain that rule to our game.

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1 hour ago, notmudkip0 said:

Because it's a different fucking format and metagame, did you just skip past that?

OK, I'll try to explain this in the easiest way I can.

 

 

(1)
Yest, they are 2 different meta, that’s why I use Helping Hand in VGC and not in single.

Thx.

But I’m talking about something else.

 

 

(2)

I’m talking about items and items’ effects.

The clause it’s meant to not allow a 6 Focus Sash Pokemons team.

And this for single, double, 3v3, 4v4, 5v5, VGC, Uber, OU, UU, NU, LC, monotype, Battle Spot, Random Battle, Random Double Battle etc. etc.

 

 

(3)

Try to explain to me how the format is different.

I mean: why you think the clause is good in double/VGC and not in single. Explain it in details.

If you explain the reason I'll listen, if you just say “It’s different!!!” I can’t. Because for me it's not different for what I'm talking about.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

Comparing the differences between PokeMMO and VGC is irrelevant anyways. We have decided we will make our own rules, the best rules we can think of for an exciting competitive game. Sure, we've taken lots of concepts from likes of Smogon but at the end of the day we can do the things the way we want here. Even though there is an Item Clause in the official format (VGC) but if we don't see an actual purpose for it here then we have no reason to obtain that rule to our game.

I like the fact that we make our rules, and I am not saying that we must copy VGC or Smogon (that was just an example to answer to the "It's impossible to build a team" argument).

 

And I think I've already explained why I think we should implement the clause, it adds strategy that at the moment is totally absent here.

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1 minute ago, ReDellaStrada47 said:

I like the fact that we make our rules, and I am not saying that we must copy VGC or Smogon (that was just an example to answer to the "It's impossible to build a team" argument).

 

And I think I've already explained why I think we should implement the clause, it adds strategy that at the moment is totally absent here.

She said it's too restrictive. She didn't say it's impossible. And no, you haven't given really any analysis that what strategy does the game encourage for having to be forced to use multiple items. Just because you're enforced to be more diverse at something does not mean that the strategy of something improves. For example, just because you would implement more pieces in the game of chess to add complexity doesn't mean the strategic element of the game would improve in any way.

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30 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

And no, you haven't given really any analysis that what strategy does the game encourage for having to be forced to use multiple items.

 

" We will not be forced to ban Focus Sash or Eviolite because of abusers, nor some pokemons (Dusclops, Porygon2, Chansey, just talking about Eviolite). "

Cit. me.

 

Chansey will not be uber, I think, because in 4 and 5 gen there are a lot of good fight pokemon and moves. But it'll be with Eviolite, same thing with Pory2 and, possibly, Dusclops.

Do we have to ban entirely a pokemon just of one item?
Do we have to ban an item just because it would be used on every pokemon?

Do we have to keep the meta slow, stalling and boring? I've just quitted a match in OU: 16 turns and all 12 pokemons were 100% health... It's no normal. It's no funny. It's not even Pokémon at this point.

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3 minutes ago, ReDellaStrada47 said:

" We will not be forced to ban Focus Sash or Eviolite because of abusers, nor some pokemons (Dusclops, Porygon2, Chansey, just talking about Eviolite). "

Cit. me.

 

Chansey will not be uber, I think, because in 4 and 5 gen there are a lot of good fight pokemon and moves. But it'll be with Eviolite, same thing with Pory2 and, possibly, Dusclops.

Do we have to ban entirely a pokemon just of one item?
Do we have to ban an item just because it would be used on every pokemon?

Do we have to keep the meta slow, stalling and boring? I've just quitted a match in OU: 16 turns and all 12 pokemons were 100% health... It's no normal. It's no funny. It's not even Pokémon at this point.

I don't know how much future gens you've played, if you believe Focus Sash and Eviolite will ever approach being anywhere near banworthy.

Stealth Rocks >>>>> Focus Sash. Running a 6x Sash team is begging to lose.

Eviolite isn't banworthy either. There's a crazy amount of NFE pokemon, and I'll tell you this much, not a single one of them has gone to Ubers because of Eviolite in any generation. Porygon2 is good. Dusclops is...alright. Chansey is a pretty good OU pokemon. Banworthy? Doubtful at best.

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12 minutes ago, ReDellaStrada47 said:

" We will not be forced to ban Focus Sash or Eviolite because of abusers, nor some pokemons (Dusclops, Porygon2, Chansey, just talking about Eviolite). "

Cit. me.

 

Chansey will not be uber, I think, because in 4 and 5 gen there are a lot of good fight pokemon and moves. But it'll be with Eviolite, same thing with Pory2 and, possibly, Dusclops.

Do we have to ban entirely a pokemon just of one item?
Do we have to ban an item just because it would be used on every pokemon?

Do we have to keep the meta slow, stalling and boring? I've just quitted a match in OU: 16 turns and all 12 pokemons were 100% health... It's no normal. It's no funny. It's not even Pokémon at this point.

Eh, Senile beat me to it... but items in general won't pretty much ever get banned unless it's something really extreme (like Berry Juice in LC) or something that can save from complete ban but doesn't restrict other things (Soul Dew). Focus Sash or Eviolite, though? Not in a million years, we all know this. And regarding to your mentioned Pokemon, what would Item Clause even help anyways? One Pokemon is still allowed to use the item so everyone would just put their Eviolite on their Chanseys. If it's broken, it still gets banned. Doesn't change anything.

 

And yes, we will ban a Pokemon even though it's good only with one item. We don't keep powerhouses in the tier only because they sweep with Choice Band. Also, in general we will ban a Pokemon if it has only one move that makes it strong. We don't start to implement complicated rules just to possibly avoid a Pokemon ban somewhere. It just gets clustered and no one likes too complicated sets of rules.

 

And again, you're barking at the wrong tree. If you don't like OU, suggest that something would be done about it. What Pokemon do you think is too strong? What core do you think is unhealthy? All much better ways to address the issue than Item Clause.

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On 9/23/2017 at 12:58 PM, OrangeManiac said:

Eh, Senile beat me to it... but items in general won't pretty much ever get banned unless it's something really extreme (like Berry Juice in LC) or something that can save from complete ban but doesn't restrict other things (Soul Dew). Focus Sash or Eviolite, though? Not in a million years, we all know this. And regarding to your mentioned Pokemon, what would Item Clause even help anyways? One Pokemon is still allowed to use the item so everyone would just put their Eviolite on their Chanseys. If it's broken, it still gets banned. Doesn't change anything.

 

And yes, we will ban a Pokemon even though it's good only with one item. We don't keep powerhouses in the tier only because they sweep with Choice Band. Also, in general we will ban a Pokemon if it has only one move that makes it strong. We don't start to implement complicated rules just to possibly avoid a Pokemon ban somewhere. It just gets clustered and no one likes too complicated sets of rules.

 

And again, you're barking at the wrong tree. If you don't like OU, suggest that something would be done about it. What Pokemon do you think is too strong? What core do you think is unhealthy? All much better ways to address the issue than Item Clause.

I find all pure stall teams unhealthy, I'm not saying to ban them all of course, but there is nothing healthy about WallMMO, this is why I don't like seeing wallbreakers be banned on smogon cause they break walls. 

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Just for clarification: We are not talking about "banning certain items which are considered overpowered", are we? We are talking about restricting it to "every mon must hold a different item", so I don't understand why some people mention "ban Eviolite" etc.

 

Anyways, in my opinion an Item Clause will make battles more predictible and therefore less interesting. If you figured one of your opponents' mons is holding a Choice Scarf, you also know that no other mon can hold another Scarf. Obviously, it'll also limit our teambuilding options. And yes, I too hate Leftovers x4 teams.

 

A better solution is to ban certain mon+item combos into higher tiers. For example Porygon 2 + any item except Eviolite = UU, but Porygon2 + Eviolite = OU.

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49 minutes ago, Envinyata said:

Just for clarification: We are not talking about "banning certain items which are considered overpowered", are we? We are talking about restricting it to "every mon must hold a different item", so I don't understand why some people mention "ban Eviolite" etc.

 

Anyways, in my opinion an Item Clause will make battles more predictible and therefore less interesting. If you figured one of your opponents' mons is holding a Choice Scarf, you also know that no other mon can hold another Scarf. Obviously, it'll also limit our teambuilding options. And yes, I too hate Leftovers x4 teams.

 

A better solution is to ban certain mon+item combos into higher tiers. For example Porygon 2 + any item except Eviolite = UU, but Porygon2 + Eviolite = OU.

Your solution isn't the best either. Plus eviotite is not ban-worthy in any gen, even without legendaries. Have problems with eviotite? Knock off is your best friend. You hate stall teams, make wall breakers, mixeds like houndoom, blaziken, metagross, even venusaur, and a lot of others tbh, flygon, swampert being other 2 good examples, right now can be used to break down walls.

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1 hour ago, Envinyata said:

A better solution is to ban certain mon+item combos into higher tiers. For example Porygon 2 + any item except Eviolite = UU, but Porygon2 + Eviolite = OU.

Complex bans like this are not a good solution.

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2 hours ago, redspawn said:

Plus eviotite is not ban-worthy in any gen, even without legendaries. Have problems with eviotite? 

I have no problems with Eviolite. I only used it as an example because it was mentioned before.

 

1 hour ago, notmudkip0 said:

Complex bans like this are not a good solution.

You may be right but isn't this exactely how it's done on Smogon? Pokemons with certain movesets or certain items are in different tiers than without those movesets / items. Just like Mega-Evolutions are in different tiers their non-Mega versions. At least this is what someone once told me, but to be honest I never checked if this was actually true. So please correct me if I'm wrong.

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2 minutes ago, Envinyata said:

You may be right but isn't this exactely how it's done on Smogon? Pokemons with certain movesets or certain items are in different tiers than without those movesets / items.

I've never seen or heard of such a thing. The closest thing I can think of is banning shadow tag/arena trap on some pokemon because they're viewed as too powerful, but this is unrelated to items.

 

2 minutes ago, Envinyata said:

Just like Mega-Evolutions are in different tiers their non-Mega versions

Because mega-evolutions are much stronger than base forms.

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8 minutes ago, Envinyata said:

I have no problems with Eviolite. I only used it as an example because it was mentioned before.

 

You may be right but isn't this exactely how it's done on Smogon? Pokemons with certain movesets or certain items are in different tiers than without those movesets / items. Just like Mega-Evolutions are in different tiers their non-Mega versions. At least this is what someone once told me, but to be honest I never checked if this was actually true. So please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well yeah, obviously something like speed boost protect blaziken is to damn ridiculous to allow in the game, as it has little to no counterplay if done correctly, or shadow tags. But this game =\= smogon, using smogon as a reference is not very good since isn't very accurate towards this game, the best example being the lack of legendaries.

Also,  Megas is a whole different thing from base pokemons, is actually ridiculous it is even a thing since it boosts some pokemon to ridiculous levels, also not a good example as hopefully we will never get them.

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Honestly, i can`t think of many cases where smogon banned a SINGLE pokemon only when using X Ability/Move/Item, insted of banning them, especially in lower tiers where you can/could find some funny bans like Smash Shell some time ago. Blaziken was and is (i guess, haven`t seen anything about it latelly) uber, not just SB Blaziken. Arena Trap just got banned, not Arena Trap Dug. 

 

As far as i know, there were never any X pokemon in OU with Y item, while it`s UU without. Megas dont count since those are considered "stand alone" pokes. Items can be banned from tiers tho (like Soul Dew was, not sure if it`s still banned, but i guess it is since i`ve never seem it in OU)

Edited by londark

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