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A Matter of Concern...


DoubleJ

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1 minute ago, notmudkip0 said:

"you guys are all wrong, I'll keep posting till you say I'm right"

"guys stop proving me wrong already, just let it go"

I mean he said let it go to me, who was agreeing with him. And no one is wrong really, it's kind of a matter of opinion. Every calc they've posted in regard to saying you NEED higher IV's is just a barely higher chance to live in super niche situations. Those situations aren't worth spending the extra arm and leg when breeding in my opinion. 

 

1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

Lol how are my examples bad? The whole point of having higher ivs is to increase my odds, so otherwise do show me a better example of how 31 is more important than 25.

 

Your boy asked me to prove my example by giving him a game (not calc), he needs to do the same for me. You can't just post a calc and convince me. So if you didn't get the point I was getting across, I was mocking him. 

 Your examples are bad because they have not convinced me that it's necessary to spend the extra money on the slightly better IVs. You turned bad chances of survival into slightly less bad but still not good chances of survival. I'm not impressed. 

 

And uhhh, any match with a sweeper ever i guess? Like 99% of replays will contain a sweeper dying to a move that wouldn't have been saved by a higher IV. I killed a heracross earlier with eruption. Do you think it died because it had like 29 sp.def instead of 31? that guy really better invest in a better heracross smh. 

 

No one is saying better IV's aren't better. That is glaringly obvious. It's just also very possible to succeed competitively without those perfect IV's. 

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Just now, Rigamorty said:

Your examples are bad because they have not convinced me that it's necessary to spend the extra money on the slightly better IVs. You turned bad chances of survival into slightly less bad but still not good chances of survival. I'm not impressed. 

 

And uhhh, any match with a sweeper ever i guess? Like 99% of replays will contain a sweeper dying to a move that wouldn't have been saved by a higher IV. I killed a heracross earlier with eruption. Do you think it died because it had like 29 sp.def instead of 31? that guy really better invest in a better heracross smh. 

 

No one is saying better IV's aren't better. That is glaringly obvious. It's just also very possible to succeed competitively without those perfect IV's. 

Riga, there will be always, always be situations where a 31 IV in a "secondary" stat wins you a game that a 25 IV doesn't. The only convincing argument that you need to spend the extra money on slightly better IVs is by asking anyone who who has had a fair success in the competitive scene about their opinion on IVs. 

 

You posted the Jolteon calc of it killing Starmie. What if Light Screen was up? Then the 31 IV factor would be taken into consideration. The game I linked, Yubell laid a spike. But I switched in my Vaporeon on the turn it spiked. If I switched in on a spike and then killed it, I would be left at 94% . This would give me no chance to survive the Manectric's tbolt if I was having 25 HP / SDEF IV. So in a way, these inferior IVs could definitely influence the way you play. You're not going to be in a perfect situation all the time where your Heracross is always going to face a Typhlosion. What if you were facing a Slowbro and you had a chance of surviving Psychic (depending on your HP number) after missing a Megahorn? You can claim you lost to RNG or a roll, but at the end of the day it will still be a loss. If you were someone like me or anyone else who has a high preference for high IVs, then you'd know that the day we joined that bandwagon is when one of our games' outcomes depended on it. I can even tell you through memory that I started rebreeding most of my pokemon because of a game I lost to Jice in the tour where Doc won the Shiny Pelipper. Jice's waterfall I think killed my Gengar because of a high roll it got with my shitty IVs. When we lose inspite of our high IVs, we then look to change spreads. 

 

I need to know what you define as succeeding competitively without these perfect IVs.

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3 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Don't you see that this guy in in the leaderboard? That's the definition of skill. 

He must be above 1 somehow because I'm not seeing him.

 

3 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

I mean he said let it go to me, who was agreeing with him.

The point still stands that he tried to drop it, even after being so adamant over his stance.

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3 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

The only convincing argument that you need to spend the extra money on slightly better IVs is by asking anyone who who has had a fair success in the competitive scene about their opinion on IVs. 

Find me a single person who would dare say "don't bother playing PvP unless you have full teams of 6x31 pokemon" 

 

4 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

I need to know what you define as succeeding competitively without these perfect IVs.

I mean, 2 of the pokemon in the picture I linked earlier were ones I bought from JJ. I think he's been moderately successful a couple times. I've got an orange friend who I know doesn't run all perfect pokemon but still sees a fair amount of success. But yeah I mean they shouldn't bother playing without all perfect comps. 

 

You can/will do better with better pokemon. Higher IV is better. No doubt about it. But is it always worth the cost when it comes to this game? especially given the time it takes to do shit in this game. Not always worth it to everyone, and not always necessary. That's all I'm saying. 

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2 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

Find me a single person who would dare say "don't bother playing PvP unless you have full teams of 6x31 pokemon" 

I can't think if anyone that has said this, but that's not the point. The point is that added IVs can save you in an important battle. There's little reason not to increase your odds of winning in such a luck based game.

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Just now, Rigamorty said:

Find me a single person who would dare say "don't bother playing PvP unless you have full teams of 6x31 pokemon" 

Let me put it this, "If you want to win games vs good players / tournaments consistently, you need 5x31 pokemon". This doesn't mean that you shouldn't compete at all, but there will be situations arising where having the higher IV won you the game. 

 

Just now, Rigamorty said:

I mean, 2 of the pokemon in the picture I linked earlier were ones I bought from JJ. I think he's been moderately successful a couple times. I've got an orange friend who I know doesn't run all perfect pokemon but still sees a fair amount of success. But yeah I mean they shouldn't bother playing without all perfect comps. 

 

You can/will do better with better pokemon. Higher IV is better. No doubt about it. But is it always worth the cost when it comes to this game? especially given the time it takes to do shit in this game. Not always worth it to everyone, and not always necessary. That's all I'm saying. 

We've all used shitty pokemon Riga. Maybe JJ was convinced to sell it because the IVs were low. Maybe he bred it when he was incredibly tight on cash. Even though JJ has been moderately successful, he's not said that 31s can't win you games that 25s can't. You can use lower iv'd pokemon all you like, but the fact remains that they won't be able to win you games that 31s can and that's ultimately the main difference.

 

Myself, Bluebreath, Frags, enchanteur, Lkrenz, gbwead, Axoa, Yubell, Arimanius, Jovi, LifeStyle and probably many more can give examples of such games that they have won with higher ivs. The difference between us and anyone else who feels differently is that we won't let inferior IVs hold us back from games that could have won.

Edited by NikhilR
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13 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

I can't think if anyone that has said this, but that's not the point. The point is that added IVs can save you in an important battle. There's little reason not to increase your odds of winning in such a luck based game.

To be fair - nobody is saying this either.

If they didn't increase your chances of winning, nobody would bother increasing their IVs.

 

The point being made here is that you can be successful without the need for 6x31s by using something that costs considerably less - and for the point that was initially made, which was essentially 'players can't compete effectively without reaching at least 5x31' that simply isn't true.

 

Don't take this as me calling you out specifically, your post was just the easiest to pick out - I think there is some misunderstanding here as to what everybody is trying to get across.

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5 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

I can't think if anyone that has said this, but that's not the point. The point is that added IVs can save you in an important battle. There's little reason not to increase your odds of winning in such a luck based game.

Because the price difference between the two things are exponential, and so is the amount of effort needed when making them, that's the entire point here. The whole talk is about how accessible competitive play is for players. 

 

2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Let me put it this, "If you want to win games vs good players / tournaments consistently, you need 5x31 pokemon". This doesn't mean that you shouldn't compete at all, but there will be situations arising where having the higher IV won you the game. 

 

We've all used shitty pokemon Riga. Maybe JJ was convinced to sell it because the IVs were low. Maybe he bred it when he was incredibly tight on cash. Even though JJ has been moderately successful, he's not said that 31s can't win you games that 25s can't. You can use lower iv'd pokemon all you like, but the fact remains that they won't be able to win you games that 31s can and that's ultimately the main difference.

 

Myself, Bluebreath, Frags, enchanteur, Lkrenz, gbwead, Axoa, Yubell, Arimanius, Jovi, LifeStyle and probably many more can give examples of such games that they have won with higher ivs. The difference between us and anyone else who feels differently is that we won't let inferior IVs hold us back from games that could have won.

I just beat enchanteur the other day with the exact team I posted so yes, you can beat top players with imperfect Pokémon. I wouldn't say I can beat him consistently because after a point he will know what all I have to run because he has a lot more comps and spends a lot more time playing, but that's all aside from IVs. And i know for a fact lifestyles ass isn't using perfect Pokémon, ive borrowed shit from him during psl, so don't toss in random good player names and make shit up to try to prove your point. I dunno about all the other people you named, but yeah no fucking way. 

 

And yeah im glad you and the random people you named supposedly have the time for that, not everyone does, but it's still worth competing with lesser Pokémon because you CAN win. Even if not optimally, it's not impossible. 

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Just now, Rigamorty said:

I just beat enchanteur the other day with the exact team I posted so yes, you can beat top players with imperfect Pokémon. I wouldn't say I can beat him consistently because after a point he will know what all I have to run because he has a lot more comps and spends a lot more time playing, but that's all aside from IVs. And i know for a fact lifestyles ass isn't using perfect Pokémon, ive borrowed shit from him during psl, so don't toss in random good player names and make shit up to try to prove your point. I dunno about all the other people you named, but yeah no fucking way. 

 

And yeah im glad you and the random people you named supposedly have the time for that, not everyone does, but it's still worth competing with lesser Pokémon because you CAN win. Even if not optimally, it's not impossible. 

You seem so aggressive. I don't care if you beat enchanteur with the exact team you posted.  You seem to have a hard time understanding what the issue is, so let me point it out:

"Look at the games that you have currently lost and ask yourself if you could have won the game with better IV'd pokemon"

That is the main question that you need to ask. I wouldn't claim the price differences are exponential. And incase I haven't made it clear, 30 is as good as 31 in almost every situation regarding secondary stats, so that should definitely ease up on the financial burden.

 

Life did start with ass comps but then later started breeding much better IV'd ones which were near perfect. So maybe the comps you borrowed from him were outdated. In fact I'm mostly telling you this based on what I know because he and Jovi were both convinced to use good iv'd pokemon by gbwead. 

 

You don't need to have time to breed, you can always get others to do it. And if you're calling the people I named as random, then lol okay bro. Stick to being a ladder hero in a dead ladder.  

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2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

You seem so aggressive. I don't care if you beat enchanteur with the exact team you posted.  You seem to have a hard time understanding what the issue is, so let me point it out:

"Look at the games that you have currently lost and ask yourself if you could have won the game with better IV'd pokemon"

That is the main question that you need to ask. I wouldn't claim the price differences are exponential. And incase I haven't made it clear, 30 is as good as 31 in almost every situation regarding secondary stats, so that should definitely ease up on the financial burden.

 

Life did start with ass comps but then later started breeding much better IV'd ones which were near perfect. So maybe the comps you borrowed from him were outdated. In fact I'm mostly telling you this based on what I know because he and Jovi were both convinced to use good iv'd pokemon by gbwead. 

 

You don't need to have time to breed, you can always get others to do it. And if you're calling the people I named as random, then lol okay bro. Stick to being a ladder hero in a dead ladder.  

Random in the sense that I don't think you have any actual way of backing up what they use, you just listed off good players you know, regardless of their pokemon's IVs. I wasn't calling them randoms, I was calling your use of them as examples random. That derived from me knowing lifestyle doesn't use all 31's. I'm not trying to come off as aggressive, I just almost always tend to because I'm me and I really like the word "fuck." Don't get triggered by wording, stay on topic. 

 

And no, I don't think IVs would have saved me from a single loss in any match in recent memory.

 

And nah, I've already gotten bored of the dead ladder, like I said I just played it for like a week with some decent success because I bought some new shit and felt like it. So I decided to go play a different game. 

 

 

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Just now, Rigamorty said:

Random in the sense that I don't think you have any actual way of backing up what they use, you just listed off good players you know, regardless of their pokemon's IVs. I wasn't calling them randoms, I was calling your use of them as examples random. That derived from me knowing lifestyle doesn't use all 31's. I'm not trying to come off as aggressive, I just almost always tend to because I'm me and I really like the word "fuck." Don't get triggered by wording, stay on topic. 

 

And no, I don't think IVs would have saved me from a single loss in any match in recent memory.

 

And nah, I've already gotten bored of the dead ladder, like I said I just played it for like a week with some decent success because I bought some new shit and felt like it. So I decided to go play a different game. 

 

 

Nah Aw have always used perfect iv'd pokemon. Just ask them to link some to you, and so have the French. I don't know how else you expect me to back it up without having them tell you firsthand. 

Edited by NikhilR
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Just now, NikhilR said:

Nah Aw has always consistently used perfect iv'd pokemon. Just ask them to link some to you, and so have the French. I don't know how else you expect me to back it up without having them tell you firsthand. 

And that's good for them. That's also an example I never asked for, but okay. The people who really really like playing and competing, and who have been on hours a day for months/years will probably take that extra step to use perfect shit, all I'm saying is that they don't necessarily have to. I gave examples of that, because burden of proof was on me, now you're flinging names at me like I'm supposed to care how they play. I'm trying to prove something does exist, and you're trying to prove it doesn't exist. I'm showing proof of that thing existing, while you're showing me proof of something else also existing and then trying to say that makes me wrong. 

 

This has gotten very off topic and we're going in circles, I'm home now and at my computer so I'll be playing WoW, hit me up at Rigamorty#1476 on battle.net if you feel like arguing this anymore for what ever reason.  

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17 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

And that's good for them. That's also an example I never asked for, but okay. The people who really really like playing and competing, and who have been on hours a day for months/years will probably take that extra step to use perfect shit, all I'm saying is that they don't necessarily have to. I gave examples of that, because burden of proof was on me, now you're flinging names at me like I'm supposed to care how they play. I'm trying to prove something does exist, and you're trying to prove it doesn't exist. I'm showing proof of that thing existing, while you're showing me proof of something else also existing and then trying to say that makes me wrong. 

 

This has gotten very off topic and we're going in circles, I'm home now and at my computer so I'll be playing WoW, hit me up at Rigamorty#1476 on battle.net if you feel like arguing this anymore for what ever reason.  

Faction? Server?  You might convince me to play so I can go on the opposite faction and hunt you down on Argus :')

 

Not really, never again after disappointments from multiple expansions, especially WoD.  Still like to follow the lore though.

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You also have to take into account that your opponent should almost have to assume that your stats are 31's even if they are actually 25's, giving 25's a not-so-obvious bonus.

 

 

edit:

 

Quote

This is such a stupid argument. Yes higher IV's gives you more chance to live/ko, it's just common sense. No you don't need perfect IV's to win, again it's just common sense.

Why is there an argument over this?

Well technically, if you wanted to get really down into the analytics, you could figure out the increase to your win % by getting perfect IVs over non-perfect IVs, figure out how much Yen that actually gets you (both in terms of competitive wins and liquidation of the pokemon itself), and compare to how much Yen it cost to make the perfect pokemon. Compare that to instead spending the yen on making a greater quantity of imperfect pokemon (so you can have a more diverse set of teams) how much that gets you in terms of win %, etc. etc.

 

I'm inclined to believe that having the more diverse set of imperfect pokemon, over the perfect pokemon, would have a higher value.

 

So there actually is an argument to be had...

Edited by Gilan
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Is this the moment spiderman takes over this thread?

 

 

 

(jk)

 

Nik is right. You do need 5x30-31 comps to win more often. I also speak from experience even though I was away from the game for quite a while.

The example I would want to give is a Nidoking. Or mixed sweepers in general. Every time you miss those 2 atk or satk points, you will miss some important chances to 2hko your opponet (or OHKO with spikes etc). Yeah, I have won tournaments using non-perfect pokes myself- for example, my perish trap haunter is *absolute* garbage but I did manage to play and win with it.

However, amount of times where I lost because of an unfavourable damage roll on my unperfect poke is uncountable. For example, during one Team Tournament my Belly Drum Linoone would've won me the match if it's IVs were not 25/26 on HP and SDef because with sitrus I would've been able to set up on Starmie with my spread and back then it died to a roll.

 

But let's get back to the point- yeah, prizes are shit. I used my shiny prizes aside from Nidoking for memes and memes only because other than for this they are pretty much useless as comps (outclassed by regulars).

Monetary rewards are also ridiculous.

 

kthx

 

And no Darkshare, calcing isn't cheating

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9 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

 

PokeMMO lost what made PokeMMO great, and that was the interaction with thousands of players from across the world. Today, we are isolated players, soloing a game that demands zero interaction and even in-game teams struggle to find reason to interact with one another. 

 

 

 

Pretty much this, game died for me after the implementation of automated tournaments. Hopefully you guys can implement something that brings the community together it once did, it was a beautiful thing.

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8 hours ago, Darkshade said:

But you don't need 5x31s though - they might give you an advantage, but they're not necessary to compete.

If we can create an environment that's cheap enough to get into (Of which I think 3x31 is reasonable), while giving the players who want to go the extra mile to get 'the best of the best' gear at a high cost (Which happens in every MMO ever), then I'd say we're handling it pretty well currently.

 

We already have a problem with money influx/outflux (We're not sinking enough), which seems to be directly caused by the drop in brace prices - lowering that isn't really going to help anything.

 

I don't mean to disregard the point, but I think people tend to forget the viability of things without 5-6x31s.

 

EDIT: And to note - those 5-6x31s don't become 'obselete' upon update launch, unlike some of the things mentioned above.

So it's not like the IVs themselves are going to be hit (value-wise) by the update.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, 5x31 and 6x31s are a MUST to play competitively, anyone who says otherwise is bad and doesn't understand how Pokemon works, teams are built around calcs, EV spreads, EXACT statistics needed. 31Hp 30Spatk 30Speed modest venu is needed to hit 176HP/Jump in Spatk/123 speed, a certain amount of HP + spdef is required for magneton to handle porygon2's tbolt and icebeam behind sub, and my best example, THE best example you could ever give is Zangoose against Arcanine in OU. I play ONLY Hyper Offense on Ladder and I've learned to determine my win conditions depending on the opponent's team, cause I know exactly how I will be able to break a core and bait my opponent into a win situation :

 

0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zangoose: 81-96 (54.3 - 64.4%)

Possible damage amounts: (81, 82, 82, 84, 84, 85, 87, 87, 88, 90, 90, 91, 93, 93, 94, 96)

0 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 50-59 (33.5 - 39.5%)

Possible damage amounts: (50, 50, 51, 51, 52, 53, 53, 54, 54, 55, 56, 56, 57, 57, 58, 59)

 

Not only do I setup on every Arcanine I see, but I win games because I have perfect IVs.

 

And yes they'll become obsolete cause meta will change, and moveset, and natures needed.

 

7 hours ago, NikhilR said:

I think the best solution would be to reduce the grind and make automated tournaments more social or just scrap it. If both those things are accomplished, I definitely would consider playing the game more often.

 

Also to all those who think that 3x25 and 2x31 are "good" enough, they aren't. Maybe you guys are playing players on MM who have much inferior comps and thus that might make you feel like your comps are good enough, but sadly they aren't. As someone who has started off with such standards, I can tell you that the only benefit you obtain with such iv'd comps is that when you face skillful players that have better iv'd comps, in order to bridge the gap you kind of have to force yourself to become the better player. But once you reach a situation where you're on an equal footing with another player in terms of skill, you'll want to gain every bit of advantage possible. A 1% live can truly change the outcome of a game, so don't dismiss it as being a negligible amount.

 

That's why I completely agree with Kamimii's post. 

This.

 

5 hours ago, redspawn said:

Yeah, but is still a chance isnt it? And most likely you'll die either way don't you? Don't you fucking see the fucking chance is still there? And both odds are against him? Nvm I even touched this subject, enjoy your 5x31s lmao, hopefully one day you're a more skilled player thanks to them.

Dude you never played PvP in your life don't argue with Nik you're ridiculous.

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10 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

---

Since this is probably the 4th rant I've heard over the past year on the same topic, one of which you were even involved in but seem to have forgotten, I'm going to help you out by drawing you a picture so that you can understand my response:

 

z6lIj86.png

 

Now, I'm going to need you to do me a favor: Save that picture. Look at it when you're feeling glum. In fact, just take a screenshot of this entire post in the case that the Forums are down for maintenance and keep a copy in your obligatory "Kyu<3<3" folder which I know you have in your Pictures directory.

 

I know it's been a very long year, and we're all kinda tired of working on the same things, but I want you to ask yourself a question: What was the purpose of this thread? If the only reason it exists was to express your displeasure at the current state of the game (which I entirely understand, because most of the points you have are valid even though they have a severe rose tint to them), instead of waiting a page, I'd like you to write out your rant in the first place so that you can get a proper response quickly.

 

To say that we're not ever going to take time to work on these problems, and that we don't care about them at all, is a very naive attitude considering we've historically been pretty good at dealing with issues related to grinding/breeding. We're not very stubborn people, and while @Darkshade likes to tell you all "No" pretty often, if we truly believe there is a problem with progression or social activity or whatever, we'll do our best to resolve it.

 

You also seem to be under the impression that "Unova" means "Gen 5 region and that's all you get go away" even though this isn't true, and I've said so in public in the past. We do intend to try to get the market things we've discussed out at the same time, or shortly after depending on how much remains within our time budget. After its release, we'll also be shifting into a housecleaning cycle which means we'll be looking to address those flaws and nitpicks you have, which we couldn't get done in the main release.

 

So, if you have any suggestions for what you want to see addressed (besides these), please take the time to write them out in the Suggestions Box. If you feel like that's just too much effort or that they're super important and we may not see them, you can drop a list of things you think would be important directly to me in a PM or email.

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