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Baton Pass?


Matoka

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I think it's time we at least considered it, how long has it been since we've actually tested out Baton pass to see what it's like in practice. I dunno, I like gimmicks and it being banned without being tested after black/white comes out would be a tad silly to me imo

 

So we're gonna experiment with making baton pass legal for testing when Black / White region and mons get added right?

 

Right?

Edited by Matoka
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16 minutes ago, Kimikozen said:

two words: smash pass

 

legit most broken shit in bw, pls no

There's gonna be so much "Broken shit" with a whole new 2 generations added at once, also I still think it's worth at least trialing since we've been so scared of it for years

 

Gorebyss wasn't Ubers in BW for a reason i would imagine.

Edited by Matoka
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Baton Pass has little to no skill in it. A shit player can beat a much superior player simply by resorting to some random BP sweep. Kinda like Belly Drum sweeps but worse.

BP has very limited counterplay. And while there are ways to be ready for BP teams, those have no practicality in competitive battling outside of beating those teams.

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But seriously, I am completely aware that people are skeptical.

 

But you have no in-practice evidence to base claims of how cancerous it would truly be, or even how prevalent it would be without any trials, the last time Baton Pass was even legal was several years ago, plus there will be tons of silly things going around, Scald Spam / Sneaky Pebbles / Psuedo Legendaries / New abilities and moves for old pokemon.

 

I genuinely believe that even if you hate the "Idea" of it, that is only just that, the "Idea", I really do think that we should test it out since it will be a good time to do so, putting it off forever because of outdated basis for the claims is an odd thing to do honestly.

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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110739069

This is vs a team specifically designed to stop Baton Pass with Shadow Tag Trick Gothitelle to stop Smeargle leads Unaware Haze Quagsire, Clear Smog Amoonguss, Skarmory for Whirlwind, and ZardY and Chansey to break subs and putting pressure.

Before HAs get added sure, Scolipede will be hot trash and Espeon won't Magic Bounce roars/status. There are no fairy types to stop Dragon Tail before Ingrain is set up and to safely switch into Dark Types who want to stop the stored power. However after HAs get added you can probably patch up these issues with other mons.

As a person who has been vocal about wanting to see Baton Pass unbanned specially since I love it as a momentum gainer, I can sadly say in the future update Baton Pass will be ten times deadlier than it currently is.

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1 minute ago, suigin said:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110739069

This is vs a team specifically designed to stop Baton Pass with Shadow Tag Trick Gothitelle to stop Smeargle leads Unaware Haze Quagsire, Clear Smog Amoonguss, Skarmory for Whirlwind, and ZardY and Chansey to break subs and putting pressure.

Before HAs get added sure, Scolipede will be hot trash and Espeon won't Magic Bounce roars/status. There are no fairy types to stop Dragon Tail before Ingrain is set up and to safely switch into Dark Types who want to stop the stored power. However after HAs get added you can probably patch up these issues with other mons.

As a person who has been vocal about wanting to see Baton Pass unbanned specially since I love it as a momentum gainer, I can sadly say in the future update Baton Pass will be ten times deadlier than it currently is.

I can't quite tell what you are attempting to imply, are you now swapping from pointing to years outdated matches as evidence to now saying FUTURE interactions are why we shouldn't test Baton Pass in the game /now/? Really?


If it wasn't what you intended it is how it came across.

 

I genuinely think Past / Future things are irrelevant, and for the "Now" we haven't had any recent tests.

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1 minute ago, Matoka said:

I can't quite tell what you are attempting to imply, are you now swapping from pointing to years outdated matches as evidence to now saying FUTURE interactions are why we shouldn't test Baton Pass in the game /now/? Really?


If it wasn't what you intended it is how it came across.

 

I genuinely think Past / Future things are irrelevant, and for the "Now" we haven't had any recent tests.

Oh you mean now. Uhh I agree with you then lol but nobody else seems to agree so yeah

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Just now, suigin said:

Oh you mean now. Uhh I agree with you then lol but nobody else seems to agree so yeah

I just want to represent it before Black / white comes out and then everyone is like "BUT MUH TIERS HAVE SETTLED" and therefore say that as a reason for not bothering to test Baton Pass, if we wait too long for the dust to settle after the initial influx of new things to the meta people will whine and say they don't want to temporarily (possibly) upset their meta with Baton pass being added.

 

Plus, I genuinely do not think Baton Pass will be an issue as long as Baton Pass clause is used, I honestly think everyone is too afraid of something without even having seen it in effect in Pokemmo's environment. 

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2 hours ago, Matoka said:

I just want to represent it before Black / white comes out and then everyone is like "BUT MUH TIERS HAVE SETTLED" and therefore say that as a reason for not bothering to test Baton Pass, if we wait too long for the dust to settle after the initial influx of new things to the meta people will whine and say they don't want to temporarily (possibly) upset their meta with Baton pass being added.

 

Plus, I genuinely do not think Baton Pass will be an issue as long as Baton Pass clause is used, I honestly think everyone is too afraid of something without even having seen it in effect in Pokemmo's environment. 

I've seen it played outside and it is pretty deadly.

 

Smeargle: Belly Drum and baton pass

 

I know you can ban Smeargle, but then you will have to ban Scizor and then Umbreon. I feel like we might be playing a bit of some wack-a-mole. I appreciate support pokemon, but I want them to only be used as clerics or healers. @LifeStyle phrased it pretty well, you can have absolutely no clue about comp and wreck things left and right. What happens if I knock out your Whirlwinder/Roarer, and then the rest of your party does not have roar nor whirlwind? I am going to crush your party so hard to the point where you want it back on the ban list.

 

Overall, I want Baton Pass where it is, so that people with skill can not be afraid of baton passers.

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6 hours ago, Bestfriends said:

I've seen it played outside and it is pretty deadly.

 

Smeargle: Belly Drum and baton pass

 

I know you can ban Smeargle, but then you will have to ban Scizor and then Umbreon. I feel like we might be playing a bit of some wack-a-mole. I appreciate support pokemon, but I want them to only be used as clerics or healers. @LifeStyle phrased it pretty well, you can have absolutely no clue about comp and wreck things left and right. What happens if I knock out your Whirlwinder/Roarer, and then the rest of your party does not have roar nor whirlwind? I am going to crush your party so hard to the point where you want it back on the ban list.

 

Overall, I want Baton Pass where it is, so that people with skill can not be afraid of baton passers.

>Outside

 

AKA basis for argument is outside of Pokemmo, I still want it tested in Pokemmo after all this time.

Pokemmo is inherently different than the base games for quite a few reasons, even some that aren't ultra apparent. Please don't point to external stuff as basis, also Belly Drum smeargle isn't even a huge threat, it belly drumming means its focus sash won't work and it can then be just killed on the turn it belly drums since its squishy, sure if it catches you with spore that's unfortunate but that means you send a moderately slow poke out against smeargle, plus grass types / insomnia pokes are immune to spore and there's also taunt.
It's not going to be uncommon for a fast Taunt lead like Weavile in a meta where people will wanna set up Stealth Rocks.

At the end of the day We are all, including me, theorymon'ing about "It will / won't be broken" and we have no in game basis to judge this off of.

 

With Baton Pass clause it doesn't allow chaining and also we're likely to get team previews in Black / white so it will be easier to spot if a team will have a baton passer and therefore send out a lead accordingly, I do not see how it is any different than other win conditions that "Skilled Players should not be afraid of" like the random Bellydrum Linoone out of nowhere with extreme speed.

 

2 hours ago, Gunthug said:

No

You certainly make a convincing argument xd

I still hold firm on my belief that it warrants being tested after all this time, Why not get some FACTUAL EVIDENCE in pokemmo for your stance so that way we don't have to keep theorymon'ing about baton pass.

 

Baton Pass has little to no skill in it. A shit player can beat a much superior player simply by resorting to some random BP sweep. Kinda like Belly Drum sweeps but worse.

BP has very limited counterplay. And while there are ways to be ready for BP teams, those have no practicality in competitive battling outside of beating those teams.

@LifeStyle It's an inherent part of the game, and little-to-no skill in it is applicable to a lot of things in pokemon, Paraflinching / Breloom Sub-Punch sets / The entire Chansey meme etc.

The game also has inherent RNG, the better player doesn't always win in the first place, plus If you are all so assertive of how bad it would be then why do you NOT want to take this time to get evidence to back up your stance so that way people cannot argue with you about it since currently we have no evidence in pokemmo to use at all.

We should get a trial to see how it plays out in practice. There are going to be so many things going nuts in BW meta that it's a perfect time to throw it into the pot and test the waters because since it won't be added on its own people won't single mindedly have an influx of baton passers, there's gonna be an equal portion of people playing with other new things (HA sets / new moves / Trick Room teams / Weather Teams) etc.

 

I am going to keep saying this, No one has done a test with Baton pass in years and I think it warrants at least a test. There is little harm in doing it with the launch of Black / White game content as everything will be in chaos anyway and it won't be "Ruining a meta" and if hypothetically it is broken it means we can bury the topic for good and no one will have to argue over it in pokemmo anymore.

 

Can we stop being so afraid of enabling baton pass clause please. For science etc etc

 

 

Edited by Matoka
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35 minutes ago, Matoka said:

>Outside

 

AKA basis for argument is outside of Pokemmo, I still want it tested in Pokemmo after all this time.

Pokemmo is inherently different than the base games for quite a few reasons, even some that aren't ultra apparent. Please don't point to external stuff as basis, also Belly Drum smeargle isn't even a huge threat, it belly drumming means its focus sash won't work and it can then be just killed on the turn it belly drums since its squishy, sure if it catches you with spore that's unfortunate but that means you send a moderately slow poke out against smeargle, plus grass types / insomnia pokes are immune to spore and there's also taunt.
It's not going to be uncommon for a fast Taunt lead like Weavile in a meta where people will wanna set up Stealth Rocks.

At the end of the day We are all, including me, theorymon'ing about "It will / won't be broken" and we have no in game basis to judge this off of.

 

With Baton Pass clause it doesn't allow chaining and also we're likely to get team previews in Black / white so it will be easier to spot if a team will have a baton passer and therefore send out a lead accordingly, I do not see how it is any different than other win conditions that "Skilled Players should not be afraid of" like the random Bellydrum Linoone out of nowhere with extreme speed.

 

You certainly make a convincing argument xd

I still hold firm on my belief that it warrants being tested after all this time, Why not get some FACTUAL EVIDENCE in pokemmo for your stance so that way we don't have to keep theorymon'ing about baton pass.

 

@LifeStyle It's an inherent part of the game, and little-to-no skill in it is applicable to a lot of things in pokemon, Paraflinching / Breloom Sub-Punch sets / The entire Chansey meme etc.

The game also has inherent RNG, the better player doesn't always win in the first place, plus If you are all so assertive of how bad it would be then why do you NOT want to take this time to get evidence to back up your stance so that way people cannot argue with you about it since currently we have no evidence in pokemmo to use at all.

We should get a trial to see how it plays out in practice. There are going to be so many things going nuts in BW meta that it's a perfect time to throw it into the pot and test the waters because since it won't be added on its own people won't single mindedly have an influx of baton passers, there's gonna be an equal portion of people playing with other new things (HA sets / new moves / Trick Room teams / Weather Teams) etc.

 

I am going to keep saying this, No one has done a test with Baton pass in years and I think it warrants at least a test. There is little harm in doing it with the launch of Black / White game content as everything will be in chaos anyway and it won't be "Ruining a meta" and if hypothetically it is broken it means we can bury the topic for good and no one will have to argue over it in pokemmo anymore.

 

Can we stop being so afraid of enabling baton pass clause please. For science etc etc

 

 

so I've been looking at this thread since it was posted, and I considered posting a long drawn out response earlier because #fuckbatonpass, but I'm glad I didn't.

 

Listen, buddy, pal, friendo, I don't know how to tell you this, but I have no idea how you actually expect your suggestion to go through. Any semblance of an argument anyone gives is responded with "lol but we don't KNOW that so your argument doesn't matter we should test it xD". Yes, I get it, you think it has to be tested to truly understand if it should be banworthy and blah blah blah etc. With that being said, you do understand that YOU are the one attempting to change the status quo, and therefore, the burden of proof as to why it should be changed is on you. And seeing how "hey it's been a while since baton pass we should test it again" isn't exactly a new, original Matoka© brand idea, that obviously isn't sufficient. So, perhaps instead of just repeatedly insisting and attempting to force what you think on everyone else in complete resistance and ignorance to any argument they're attempting, you should, maybe, I dunno, try and delve into some of the theory people are arguing to try and convince them of your point?

 

So now that we've covered my problem with the way you're trying to push through this suggestion without actually contributing anything of substance to the conversation, let me talk about my problems with the actual suggestion itself.

 

So first of all, the idea of unbanning Baton Pass with B/W because everything will be messed up already anyway, and therefore it's a good time to test it, is terrible. The reasoning would be sound, if Baton Pass was banned for being broken. However, it was not banned for being broken. Yeah, there are broken things you can do with Baton Pass, and one or two of those things might leak into B/W if it's unbanned, and that's something I guess, but Baton Pass was banned for being uncompetitive and the negative effects it had on the metagame. We went from full Baton Pass, to testing a month without it, and then a month with Baton Pass clause (1 BP user per team), and it was (mostly) unanimously agreed that no BP was waaaaay better for everyone involved. The problem is that the easiest way to gauge uncompetitiveness/unhealthiness is to see the difference between a metagame with something, and a metagame without it. If we unban BP at the start of B/W when everything is in chaos, we have literally no good "control" to see the difference between the meta with BP and without it. So, in reality, testing it at the start of B/W because everything is in chaos because it can't cause that much harm is literally, by far, the worst time to test it out.

 

So you might say "okay fine, test it out a bit after B/W comes out and things stabilize a bit, because you know, it'll still be a completely different meta and we can't say it's still banworthy for sure". Yeah, okay, I hear you, but here's my biggest problem with the idea: Fuck Baton Pass. The thing you're closing your ears to and adamantly denying to anyone who attempts to tell you is that BP is really, consistently bad. It's restricted in some non-insignificant way in Gen 3, 5, 6 and 7. In gen 1 Baton Pass didn't exist, and in Gen 2 it has some niche use, but the lack of real abusers and the deeply entrenched, bulky, stally metagame of gen 2 makes it just kind of sucks compared to better offense teams. In gen 4 it isn't really restricted, but there were discussions about it, and tbh I can say with a pretty large degree of certainty if we were in Gen 4, people would probably want it banned/heavily restricted in some way. And of course, Gen 5/6 have you limited to 1 BP user per team, and you can't pass speed boosts, with it being fully banned in Gen 7.

 

What am I trying to say here? Well, it's very simple. Baton Pass is very, ridiculously consistently obnoxious. Fighting against it and with it really detracts a lot from the game, because Baton Pass is special in that it's a strategy, whether it's a full team or just 1 passer, that you can use mostly the same moves/strategy every game, and even if your opponent knows what's coming, they can very easily just lose due to a bad matchup. It's why BP has been getting more attention in more recent gens; The large amount of pokemon and massive powercreep makes team matchup a huge issue, and when we go into BW, losses due to matchup are going to be a bigger problem. Throw in things like BP that feed off of "winning at teambuilder", and you've got a recipe for a genuinely unfun, uncompetitive battle environment. Yeah, if we try BP again, we might be able to squeeze it in with 1 BP per team, or, god forbid, that abomination of a clause they're using for Gen 5/6 and they used in early Sun/Moon before full-on banning the move, but why should we? Yeah, we might save BP, and we'll give Shedinja a tiny bit more viability, but it's just not worth it. The time, effort and resources that would go into attempting this and maybe trying a few different BP Clauses is much better spent doing literally anything else, because, even if we do manage to get in an okay position in the metagame, there's pretty much 0 chance it'll make the game more competitive. It'll just open up another move for people to use on some pokemon sometimes, with so many restrictions it probably won't even be worth using on a majority of the pokemon can learn it. And for what? So we can say it's not "completely" banned? To cater to the 3 people who want to use BP Shedinja in NU? It simply isn't worth it to test something that we know is going to cause some degree of trouble, will have to be restricted to some level, if not completely,and won't really improve the metagame in a period of time that's already going to be chaotic and require a good amount of work to begin with.

 

So, should Baton Pass be tested to see if it's truly still a problem? Well, it's certainly a possibility. But to be entirely honest, I think there's a 0% chance it won't be restricted by a clause or something in some way, it would take a good amount of time and effort, and the start of B/W is by far the worst time to test the idea. And honestly, I don't think it's worth taking that time and effort test. With that being said, whether it is or isn't worth the time, I don't even think that can be properly evaluated until well into B/W. So, with that being said, not only do I disagree with your suggestion, but I think you posted this thread a year or 2 too early.

 

TL;DR: naw homie come back in 2+ years with an actual contribution to the discussion and well into B/W and maybe we can talk about it man

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59 minutes ago, Matoka said:

>Outside

 

AKA basis for argument is outside of Pokemmo, I still want it tested in Pokemmo after all this time.

Pokemmo is inherently different than the base games for quite a few reasons, even some that aren't ultra apparent. Please don't point to external stuff as basis, also Belly Drum smeargle isn't even a huge threat, it belly drumming means its focus sash won't work and it can then be just killed on the turn it belly drums since its squishy, sure if it catches you with spore that's unfortunate but that means you send a moderately slow poke out against smeargle, plus grass types / insomnia pokes are immune to spore and there's also taunt.
It's not going to be uncommon for a fast Taunt lead like Weavile in a meta where people will wanna set up Stealth Rocks.

At the end of the day We are all, including me, theorymon'ing about "It will / won't be broken" and we have no in game basis to judge this off of.

 

With Baton Pass clause it doesn't allow chaining and also we're likely to get team previews in Black / white so it will be easier to spot if a team will have a baton passer and therefore send out a lead accordingly, I do not see how it is any different than other win conditions that "Skilled Players should not be afraid of" like the random Bellydrum Linoone out of nowhere with extreme speed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

@LifeStyle It's an inherent part of the game, and little-to-no skill in it is applicable to a lot of things in pokemon, Paraflinching / Breloom Sub-Punch sets / The entire Chansey meme etc.

The game also has inherent RNG, the better player doesn't always win in the first place, plus If you are all so assertive of how bad it would be then why do you NOT want to take this time to get evidence to back up your stance so that way people cannot argue with you about it since currently we have no evidence in pokemmo to use at all.

We should get a trial to see how it plays out in practice. There are going to be so many things going nuts in BW meta that it's a perfect time to throw it into the pot and test the waters because since it won't be added on its own people won't single mindedly have an influx of baton passers, there's gonna be an equal portion of people playing with other new things (HA sets / new moves / Trick Room teams / Weather Teams) etc.

 

I am going to keep saying this, No one has done a test with Baton pass in years and I think it warrants at least a test. There is little harm in doing it with the launch of Black / White game content as everything will be in chaos anyway and it won't be "Ruining a meta" and if hypothetically it is broken it means we can bury the topic for good and no one will have to argue over it in pokemmo anymore.

 

Can we stop being so afraid of enabling baton pass clause please. For science etc etc

 

 

I observed pokemon outside PokeMMO that might have a similar outcome (like in gen 5 people pull in an Umbreon on a Chancey and baton pass the curses). @LifeStyle made a valid point because he understands the risk of Baton Pass. Unchaining Baton Pass is like throwing your kid in the woods, it is cruel. In the name of science, I watched a lot of baton passes being dealt in the 5th generation. Here are my findings for gen 5:

 

Spoiler

Finding 1:

Spoiler

 

 

Date Published October 6th 2012

Finding 2 (This includes Legendaries with strengthens our case against allowing Baton Pass again):

Spoiler

 

 

Date Published: October 13th 2014

Finding 3:

Spoiler

 

 

Date Published: January 19th 2012

Finding 4:

Spoiler

 

 

Date Published: September 16th 2014

 

In the name of science, this has already been tested numerous times and we land on the exact same result, it is broken. I can dump more information, but I don't want to overwhelm you with it. Senile does a great job explaining why Baton Pass should be canned on PokeMMO forever. No testing needed just like Wobbufett. We already have a general idea of what might happen and it is messy.

 

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