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Globalized Trade Chat


Draekyn

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31 minutes ago, Kyu said:

 Decouple Mail from the PC. Players should be able to send and receive mail at any location and immediately on login.

I feel like this would be exploitable. Assuming you gain full functionality of mail anywhere you could mail a Pokémon to another person or an alt to have it healed and then sent back. Effectively you'd be paying 2k to heal that Pokémon but that's 2k for what 3 leppa berries would do, and 3 leppas are generally between 4.5-6k. Could potentially fuck up prices on leppas or other healing items. Obvious solution would just be text only mail functions away from pc. 

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Just now, Rigamorty said:

I feel like this would be exploitable. Assuming you gain full functionality of mail anywhere you could mail a Pokémon to another person or an alt to have it healed and then sent back. Effectively you'd be paying 2k to heal that Pokémon but that's 2k for what 3 leppa berries would do, and 3 leppas are generally between 4.5-6k. Could potentially fuck up prices on leppas or other healing items. Obvious solution would just be text only mail functions away from pc. 

 

37 minutes ago, Kyu said:

 Only send & receive items when interacting from a PC.

 

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2 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

I feel like this would be exploitable. Assuming you gain full functionality of mail anywhere you could mail a Pokémon to another person or an alt to have it healed and then sent back. Effectively you'd be paying 2k to heal that Pokémon but that's 2k for what 3 leppa berries would do, and 3 leppas are generally between 4.5-6k. Could potentially fuck up prices on leppas or other healing items. Obvious solution would just be text only mail functions away from pc. 

When I said "Only send & receive items when interacting from PC" I meant both pokemon/bag items. It will be restricted the same way as the GTL where you can't claim goods mid-PvE.

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41 minutes ago, Kyu said:

The current limitation of a buy-in fee and timebomb is not enough to prevent GTL spam.

What are your thoughts on a possible cooldown between listings? It could cut down on the spam of crap like, say, a single pokeball in a listing.

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4 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

What are your thoughts on a possible cooldown between listings? It could cut down on the spam of crap like, say, a single pokeball in a listing.

But what if you are selling a lot of breeders, or the comps you haven't used for ages but are in need of money. Yes, the single pokeball is extremely annoying and pointless, but the time restriction would bring its own problems with it aswel.

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13 minutes ago, Evlgoon said:

what kind of limit on total listings are we talking about here? Its no uncommon for someone to gather 6-7 boxes of breeders before unloading them on gtl.

Several hundred at least. I'm not sure on the exact number yet, and we'll probably need separate counters based on whether it's an item or pokemon. Feel free to suggest.

 

Edit: The intended goal of the change is to prevent people from dumping all their catches onto the GTL for an easy 5-10k from noobs. We want things on the GTL to have some real value.

 

10 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said:

What are your thoughts on a possible cooldown between listings? It could cut down on the spam of crap like, say, a single pokeball in a listing.

Cooldowns are a soft limit and just make things annoying to list. They also encourage macroing the task with external tools which gets people banned.

 

14 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

I guess I should've gone to bed when the sun came up, don't mind my inability to read

Welcome to my world. Every day is like this. It's maddening and exhausting.

Edited by Kyu
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4 minutes ago, Kyu said:

Several hundred at least. I'm not sure on the exact number yet, and we'll probably need separate counters based on whether it's an item or pokemon. Feel free to suggest.

 

Since listing several boxes worth of pokemon was brought up, I'd think 300-360? Not sure about an item cap, if you decide to go with separate counters.

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Why don't u add another tab to gtl where players can make advertisment. Basicly the same as those on forum in trade corner. People would be able to show their ev/breeding services. That would be a good way of preventing player spamming with tons of for example bad dittos too. They could simply write selling bad dittos 2k each one in their advertisment. That would be a good way to add few more taxes like posting add 15k. Every bump 5k. (1 ad per player and 1 week expire time if post wasn't bumped.) That might fix both trade chat spam and people listing 10 pages of the same thing. Seeing if seller is online world be usefull in this case. If he is off players could become more likely to use mail system.

Edited by WestTurtle
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6 minutes ago, WestTurtle said:

Why don't u add another tab to gtl where players can make advertisment. Basicly the same as those on forum in trade corner. People would be able to show their ev/breeding services. That would be a good way of preventing player spamming with tons of for example bad dittos too. They could simply write selling bad dittos 2k each one in their advertisment. That would be a good way to add few more taxes like posting add 15k. Every bump 5k. (1 ad per player and 1 week expire time if post wasn't bumped.) That might fix both trade chat spam and people listing 10 pages of the same thing. Seeing if seller is online world be usefull in this case. If he is off players could become more likely to use mail system.

This was the reason Trade Chat is moving to Global. The GTL is not suitable for service advertisements and we need a platform for it in-game. But, any big and sweeping changes to the GTL is not going to happen in this update.

 

Message boards like that are high-effort and need several days' worth of work, and that's not something we can do right now. All the changes in that list are either trivial or <1d.

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Just now, Kyu said:

Several hundred at least. I'm not sure on the exact number yet, and we'll probably need separate counters based on whether it's an item or pokemon. Feel free to suggest.

 

honestly i think no cap is necessary for total listings, why punish someone for accumulating a lot of resources/breeders, but if you guys deemed it necessary i think around 300 would be fair. I think a hard cap on the listing duration would be more effective than anything, Currently we have stuff that's been listed for almost 2 years, i feel like the duration should span 2-4 weeks at most. Right now their are roughly 20,000 pokemon for sale that have been listed for over 30 days, its safe to assume that of those most will never sell at their current price, so a hard cap of 30 days essentially reduces total listings by 40%. I also think that this mail system you are thinking of is way to convoluted and complicated to work successfully, especially for bigger ticket items.Some of the rare shinies have a value of 500m+ which would make it impossible to sell for in game currency, they have to be traded for a combination of other rare shinies/cash/items. I think the only way to buy/sell the bigger ticket items that makes sense is either real time in game or via forums. 

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10 minutes ago, Evlgoon said:

honestly i think no cap is necessary for total listings, why punish someone for accumulating a lot of resources/breeders, but if you guys deemed it necessary i think around 300 would be fair.

The reasoning is already listed in the notes.

 

Quote

I think a hard cap on the listing duration would be more effective than anything, Currently we have stuff that's been listed for almost 2 years, i feel like the duration should span 2-4 weeks at most. Right now their are roughly 20,000 pokemon for sale that have been listed for over 30 days, its safe to assume that of those most will never sell at their current price, so a hard cap of 30 days essentially reduces total listings by 40%.

This is also being done. It's in the post.

 

Quote

I also think that this mail system you are thinking of is way to convoluted and complicated to work successfully, especially for bigger ticket items.Some of the rare shinies have a value of 500m+ which would make it impossible to sell for in game currency, they have to be traded for a combination of other rare shinies/cash/items. I think the only way to buy/sell the bigger ticket items that makes sense is either real time in game or via forums. 

We already have a mail system in-game. These changes are to give players a cheap way to contact each other and set up barters. People can list things for 2 billion with a fee of 20k which is either a waste of money for epeen or a show of intent that they want to barter an item. This is why we're exposing usernames for listings too. It is effectively an in-game advertisement for an intent to sell in a certain way.

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@Kyu Those changes look great

 

On another note your personal stand on value discussion and its biggest downside (market manipulation) is quite a big surprise for me, if I recall correctly Mike and Munya told me a VD return was voted against, regardless of any possible tweaking. I'm pretty sure that I was told the dev team was firmly against it.

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8 hours ago, Kyu said:

Encourage online communication between buyers and sellers

  •  Create a username field for the GTL's table which shows the seller's name
  •  Add an indicator as to whether the user is online with headshots
  •  [OPTIONAL] Make an option for a listing to be anonymous
  •  Players should be able to click the headshot of a seller to create a mail (if not Anonymous).

 

I feel like something that might need to be added is a short description, free-form field, about the kinds of things that the seller is looking for. i.e. "Looking for OU comps", "Looking for MixMences", stuff like that.

 

 

Another thing that I've been thinking about, is to do something completely different than a Posting Fee. Instead, have players deposit pokeyen into a GTL account. Things that the player lists on the GTL will incur charges over-time, drawing the money from their deposits. When the deposit account is dry, and the listing is trying to pull money, it will get delisted (it will also follow the standard inactivity delisting rule, so that it mitigates the risk of drying out the account accidentally). This rewards players for pricing correctly, and discourages over-pricing, but is still forgiving if you do overprice. I feel like this could definitely be better than Posting Fees. It should also soft-limit the number of postings a player has.

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3 hours ago, Draekyn said:

@Kyu Those changes look great

 

On another note your personal stand on value discussion and its biggest downside (market manipulation) is quite a big surprise for me, if I recall correctly Mike and Munya told me a VD return was voted against, regardless of any possible tweaking. I'm pretty sure that I was told the dev team was firmly against it.

I'm a very liberally minded person in terms of how we should moderate players. But I don't participate in many Mod-oriented conversations because my words carry a lot of weight and I'm not always right, and this is one of those I abstained from until fully understanding the problem.

 

I don't think we necessarily need "VD", but that we need some form of way for players to price check things. I didn't mention it in the previous post, but a globalized Trade Chat also provides this kind of discussion room where prices can be talked about in a free market manner, although it's a less optimal version due to impermanence. Whether Mods choose to allow another VD is up to them. But I do think we need it because players don't have any "history" function in-game to see what has been sold.

 

1 hour ago, Gilan said:

I feel like something that might need to be added is a short description, free-form field, about the kinds of things that the seller is looking for. i.e. "Looking for OU comps", "Looking for MixMences", stuff like that.

A completely different trade entry with intent for bartering is the ideal. This includes a desc field like that. In addition to improving liquidity, the fee ceiling is a really janky but easy way to implement this kind of trade type which is why it's the short-term proposal.

 

Quote

 

Another thing that I've been thinking about, is to do something completely different than a Posting Fee. Instead, have players deposit pokeyen into a GTL account. Things that the player lists on the GTL will incur charges over-time, drawing the money from their deposits. When the deposit account is dry, and the listing is trying to pull money, it will get delisted (it will also follow the standard inactivity delisting rule, so that it mitigates the risk of drying out the account accidentally). This rewards players for pricing correctly, and discourages over-pricing, but is still forgiving if you do overprice. I feel like this could definitely be better than Posting Fees. It should also soft-limit the number of postings a player has.

I think it's too complicated for many people to understand. Moving fees into escrow would increase liquidity & volatility, but the posting fee is a very low barrier to entry in terms of knowledge. The same type of escrow system is already implemented in many marketplaces though, so it does work. I just don't think it's suitable for here since our primary game is targeted for a casual audience.

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7 hours ago, LifeStyle said:

@Kyu Is it possible to increase the # of items/pokes sent in a single mail? Maybe increase fee by each attach in a mail. It's just that I find it annoying having to send 3 different mails to the same person if I want to mail 3 comps for him/her, instead of just sending all those in one mail.

It is a very complicated change even though the result is simple. I know it's something we need to do, but I'm not sure it's feasible for this update. I'd need to talk with Desu to get his opinions on it.

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22 hours ago, Kyu said:

I don't know why you'd expect me not to defend my team when people make ignorant and arrogant assumptions about it.

Staff basically live through assumptions. Your key choices revolves around the word ''Assumption''. I've been playing since early 2013 full supporting this ideal and at the moment I'm pretty unsettled with the content.

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31 minutes ago, Ichigo said:

Staff basically live through assumptions. Your key choices revolves around the word ''Assumption''. I've been playing since early 2013 full supporting this ideal and at the moment I'm pretty unsettled with the content.

I'm sorry you feel that way. The only thing we ask from you, as a community, is to trust us and our vision. We try our best to demonstrate our competence through work and words. This thread is a glimpse into the complexities and people behind PokeMMO, and the truth is that it's not always pretty and fun. It's hard work to create teams of people to accomplish a goal, and even harder to create something as ambitious as this.

 

This exhaustive and frustrated tone is the same one we use every day when talking to each other, and this type of reaction is why we don't talk seriously in public often. We're used to it, but you're not, and you might think it's odd and angry, but it's how we accomplish everything and learn about each other.

 

When I'm willing to speak seriously and analytically, and when I'm willing to make jabs at a person's argument so that they second-guess themselves, it's not out of malice, but out of respect so that I can try to understand more about what motivates people to say things. Because that's how we learn and get better at what we do. The people close to me know that, but you don't. That's why we hide it.

Edited by Kyu
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2 hours ago, Kyu said:

I'm sorry you feel that way. The only thing we ask from you, as a community, is to trust us and our vision. We try our best to demonstrate our competence through work and words. This thread is a glimpse into the complexities and people behind PokeMMO, and the truth is that it's not always pretty and fun. It's hard work to create teams of people to accomplish a goal, and even harder to create something as ambitious as this.

 

This exhaustive and frustrated tone is the same one we use every day when talking to each other, and this type of reaction is why we don't talk seriously in public often. We're used to it, but you're not, and you might think it's odd and angry, but it's how we accomplish everything and learn about each other.

 

When I'm willing to speak seriously and analytically, and when I'm willing to make jabs at a person's argument so that they second-guess themselves, it's not out of malice, but out of respect so that I can try to understand more about what motivates people to say things. Because that's how we learn and get better at what we do. The people close to me know that, but you don't. That's why we hide it.

I've personally actually found this level of communication quite refreshing.

 

Having a dev sit there and willingly open themselves up to scrutiny is something that I've not seen in my time playing, and I've found this to be quite respectable; it's nice to be given a window of opportunity to talk personally with the devs in order to try to understand what kinds of updates are on the cards, and the reasoning behind them. I'd like to see this kind of thing more often. 

 

 

 

 

One question, though - cancel button? 

 

 

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First of all: Thanks for sharing thoughts and asking for feedback and thus creating the atmosphere of a constructive working think tank in this thread @Kyu

 

On 15.7.2017 at 11:05 AM, Kyu said:

 

Balancing

  •  Limit the total amount of listings a player can have // The current limitation of a buy-in fee and timebomb is not enough to prevent GTL spam. This creates a rift in difficulty where players can purchase very good pokemon very cheaply, and devalues work on the storyline. While this is still vulnerable to muling, it reduces the behavior in total and should be a net gain. Alternatively, we can increase fees as the total amount of listings increases, but this is also vulnerable to muling and undermines the fee ceiling.
  •  Create a hard delist time of 1-2 weeks. // With the reduction in fees, relisting increases the money sink of using the GTL and prevents high availability of garbage pokemon. Having too many pokemon available makes sifting through the GTL a difficult task due to information overload.
  •  Decide a fee ceiling to reduce overhead of trading especially valuable objects. // Currently, high-value things like Shinies don't have good liquidity because of the prohibitive fees when listing them. This prevents price adjustments and causes a stagnant market, so this ceiling should be low.
  •  

Concerning limited listings:

  • I agree that it would be beneficial if one player could only have one listing of one item (up to 99 units at the same price) to limit spam and to impede price manipulation (as one would need to cancel an old listing to post an item for a different price / still possible to "simulate" other prices for the same item with Alts though)
  • I don't like the idea of limiting the amount of pokémon that may be put/hold in GTL. As mentioned before in this thread, one of the main advantages of the GTL is the possibility to find a specific pokemon for breeding. It is impossible to presage what specific Breeder someone might be looking for, but the broader the offer on GTL, the less frustrating his/her search might be or the more beneficial his/her experience with the GTL/game might be.
    I also don't see yet why it would be needed to prevent new players from buying pokemon while still working on the storyline, as it might be completely innocent/out of fun, has (possibly?) no negative effect on others adn the story is - while mandatory - not a siginificant part of the time spend in this MMO

 

Concerning values/fees/bargaining:

  • add an auction house
    • which could justify the closure of the value discussion thread ex post
    • the amount of the listing fee could be determined at the end of the auction
    • might function as an additional money sink if a new player sells something rare he found for (e.g) 100m instead of 1m - taking a bigger bite out of the monetary base before leaving forever ("locking" a higher sum of money on an unused account)
  • install a declining listing fee
  • add a "static listing" in the GTL for any item that might be bought directly somewhere in the game world (eg. for any TM, Casino items, vanities from Pokémarts,...) and list the location and prices
    • those shouldn't be buyable via the GTL, but give any player searching for them the information how much they would cost at another/given location and enabling them to choose the best option for themselves
  • add the possiblity to offer items/(shiny) pokemon for a listing inside the Auction house (or GTL)
    • the owner of the listing would need to accept the offera at a value he gives offer (so it might take a place in the auction)
    • money will still need to be offered in addition - at least enough to cover the fee of the auction

 

Chat:

  • please bring Global Chat back
    • let it require 16 badges before one could post there, if you want - but it would be nice if the channels got possibility to connect again...
Edited by Anthrazit
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2 hours ago, Anthrazit said:

please bring Global Chat bac

Oh yeah this was a thing and would probably need to come back with globalized trade since people would just want to use trade chat as a global chat if it were the only one that could reach all channels. Which is a shame because global made me wanna end my suffering. 

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