[PSL 8] Week One

[Rigamorty]

[Parke]

 

won, rough crit was rough

[Laz]

4 minutes ago, Parke said:

 

won, rough crit was rough

Haven't read that for a while rofl, that crit got u the w, but meh rng happens.
gg

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, KaynineXL said:

I'd say that works when you completely outclass your opponent moreso, but when you're not too far apart skill wise which in PSL is the case for a good portion of the games, the additional damage can give that person the advantage they need.

 

Looking at it the other way, if you're fighting someone using low acc moves and you're not, and say they don't miss any then you're at a fairly substantial disadvantage and you're not even the one doing the risking.

I understand, but that was not my point. Everyone knows that these pleb moves exist whether you are on the giving or the receiving end. Therefore, you can take into account the dmg potential of opposing threats, but you can't take into account when these pleb moves will miss when you use them. When you choose to run these moves, you also choose to put your win condition at risk, you decide that RNG gods are in control of the outcome of the duel and not you. 

 

However, like Gunthug mentioned, you do get an advantage when using these pleb moves successfully, so perhaps this advantage compensate for when these pleb moves miss. I don't think that is the case tho. In XPLOZ vs Riga's duel, Riga would have most likely won if he ran Surf instead of Hydro Pump. The additional damage from Hydro Pump compared to Surf did not matter; it was all about getting any dmg on that Hippo, not necessarily high dmg.  When you miss, what happens? Your pokemon dies instead of theirs or free stealth rock, free rapid spin, w.e. Losing a turn is devastating, there is no question about that. Does the additional dmg really compensate for such a devastating miss? It get even worse when you are stuck with a pleb low accuracy move against a faster sub user: an Empoleon spaming Hydro Pump against an Heatran that can sub until you miss for instance. It also get even worse when that faster pokemon is a bulky Zapdos with pressure to burn the pps of these low pp pleb moves. I realise that the sub and pressure examples are situational, but those once again put you in an horrid position. I personally prefer winning without RNG than winning with RNG, because not missing a pleb moves with low accuracy is still RNG. 

 

1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

Nah it's not like that tbh. A lot of stuff in DPP is super bulky, so moves like Surf / Flamethrower just aren't strong enough unless you equip those pokes with orb. Hydro Pump / Fire Blast are super necessary to get those required 2hkos. It's a lot better to have a chance to kill something rather than having no chance at all. 

I was not talking about DPP specifically, but if that is really the case, I think it is pretty sad. I mean going into a duel when you have to hit 2 Hydro Pumps in a row to get that 2hko is super lame. That's like 64% chance of success or something, so I would go into a duel knowing I have 36% to lose just because I run a team that relies on RNG. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by gbwead

[Kimikozen]

There was a really interesting post on smogon forums during the XY OU meta that was about accuracy moves. It used the example of Charizard-Y and the choice between fire blast and flamethrower. It was a pretty detailed thread and listed 40 or so calcs that basically concluded fire blast was needed to ohko most of its checks. I wish I could find it again because it went through most of the discussion you guys are currently having. 

 

My thoughts lie mainly in the middle, because I think its really situational. A lot of the time you don't need to go for the move with less PP and more power to get the most out a pokemon, and sometimes, like in the case of XY Zard-y, you do. I always thought Pokemon was like one big game of poker where you just try and bend the odds in your favor. Sometimes you can make the safe plays and play the cards, and it will work against lower skilled players most of the time. But other times you have to go for the riskier bluff in order to bend the odds and make the unfavorable positions favorable.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Kimikozen

[Gunthug]

Yeah id agree 100% that different situations can call for different movesets. I do think our mmo meta leans a lot more heavily on high accuracy moves than showdown metagame which has always puzzled me though. 

[Telf]

me vs oltan in 10ish mins maybe 20

[KaynineXL]

17 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

 I do think our mmo meta leans a lot more heavily on high accuracy moves than showdown metagame which has always puzzled me though. 

Me too!

 

I was asking players a while back, why is it PokeMMO players almost always rock the higher accuracy moves where as Showdown the majority favour the hard hitting low accuracy moves.

 

I feel like the difference with Showdown and MMO is that MMO is slightly more "wally" and the harder hitting moves are probably better for OHKOing offensive threats which the weaker moves probably don't quite. Hydro pump is hardly going to be too useful against say a Chansey who shrugs it off anyway.

 

Now that we have Orbs and Choice specs and no Chansey... Maybe it is time for the hydro pumps to come out?

[Kimikozen]

27 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Yeah id agree 100% that different situations can call for different movesets. I do think our mmo meta leans a lot more heavily on high accuracy moves than showdown metagame which has always puzzled me though. 

idk if this holds true for others but pp max are expensive as hell so fire blast will always stay as 5 pp lol

[DoctorPBC]

6 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

 

Now that we have Orbs and Choice specs and no Chansey... Maybe it is time for the hydro pumps to come out?

my second battle vs frags yesterday says otherwise

[Telf]

me vs oltan now

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen7ou-592245076

[LuisPocho]

one would think that you dont need that much fire power in a meta full of stealth rock and spikes... well maybe those "40 calcs or so" kimi was talking about included entry hazards in the calculation

[gbwead]

34 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

Me too!

 

I was asking players a while back, why is it PokeMMO players almost always rock the higher accuracy moves where as Showdown the majority favour the hard hitting low accuracy moves.

 

I feel like the difference with Showdown and MMO is that MMO is slightly more "wally" and the harder hitting moves are probably better for OHKOing offensive threats which the weaker moves probably don't quite. Hydro pump is hardly going to be too useful against say a Chansey who shrugs it off anyway.

 

Now that we have Orbs and Choice specs and no Chansey... Maybe it is time for the hydro pumps to come out?

I guess, but Chansey is not in UU/NU and yet we still don't use the pleb low accuracy moves significantly more. Also, what you say is in complete contradiction with what nik said about wally stuff in DPP being too bulky which is why the extra dmg is needed and not shrugged off like you claim.

[Telf]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-592245076

I won gg oltan

[xStarr]

good dd against clef xd

[NikhilR]

9 hours ago, gbwead said:

I was not talking about DPP specifically, but if that is really the case, I think it is pretty sad. I mean going into a duel when you have to hit 2 Hydro Pumps in a row to get that 2hko is super lame. That's like 64% chance of success or something, so I would go into a duel knowing I have 36% to lose just because I run a team that relies on RNG. 

Yeah that mentality is always going to be there that if I have to win, then I'll need to hit these low accuracy moves. Like you will never see a person run hp fight on Gengar instead of Focus Blast because the latter usually gets the ohko in TTar. 

[Erayne]

The best team is just the one that has the highest probability of winning, not the one risking less

[gbwead]

14 minutes ago, Erayne said:

The best team is just the one that has the highest probability of winning, not the one risking less

I agree, but it still depends on what notion of risk we are talking about since the probably of winning is directly related to the risks taken.

[KaynineXL]

8 hours ago, gbwead said:

I guess, but Chansey is not in UU/NU and yet we still don't use the pleb low accuracy moves significantly more. Also, what you say is in complete contradiction with what nik said about wally stuff in DPP being too bulky which is why the extra dmg is needed and not shrugged off like you claim.

Firstly, I did "say" I was puzzled as to why DPP players use them and we don't, which means I don't have an answer(I didn't say it, but I agreed with Gunt). I just gave something to ponder on which I think could be part of the reason.

 

Maybe me and Nik believe the same thing, but are not wording it correctly. Naturally most DPP mons have more bulk like your TTars, Heatrans, Zapdos', Rotoms etc that are not in our MMO. The only one I can think of that is similar to those stat wise in our metagame is probably Metagross. DPPs mons overall are just bulkier, but MMO OU just had 1 massive wall in Chansey which nothing would scratch. Not only that, DPP mons have additional help with additional hazards and weather thats damages like Sandstorm which is commonly used. These little things mount up causing the harder hitting moves to have more impact I guess?

 

Also, I am not as experienced as some of the other players, so my opinion isn't as valuable.

Edited June 18, 2017 by KaynineXL

[Zigh]

@Viking and I in 15min

[TspdLucasCisneros]

me vs kevola 
in 12mins

[kevola]

6 minutes ago, TspdLucasCisneros said:

me vs kevola 
in 12mins

I never agreed to this, I said I have to go

[DoubleJ]

When no one posts results anymore

[Bilburt]

lord of angmar won

[BlackJovi]

Fagmar haxed in all three games and finally won