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PSL Season 8 - How many tiers ?


8 or 10 tiers ?  

63 members have voted

  1. 1. 8 or 10 tiers ?

    • 8
      30
    • 10
      33


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3 minutes ago, Kamimiii said:

Do you understand that in the 8 tiers case the whole lineup will be fucking monsters, sure you can help and work your way into the lineup, but that shouldnt be how it works in MMO, you can give 2 more places, which means MAYBE a squishier line up but at least people actually have a real chance to join the lineup if they work hard for it, won't happen with Axoa as only UU player for the team.

That's all the more reason why 8 tiers is more hyped. Because it's exclusive to just good players, all the battles will be between good players. That makes every match a good watch. People can work their way to the lineup as a sub, as I mentioned. If Axoa has to maybe fill in for another tier, someone else might have to take Axoa's spot. 

 

6 minutes ago, Kamimiii said:

Not in the case of 10 tiers, if you work hard enough you get your chance to play. It's like having to count on the few few few new names when u chose 8 tiers, but instead, you maybe gonna count on 3 of them, which, if your manager picks well enough, is totally acceptable.

 

It seems like you're being individual this time Nik, I think you should just trust your manager, you and your team, even if you're good it's a team game, and when a team member loses, it's the fault of the whole team. However I get this is hard when the last PSL didn't just work for you as a team, but well there are multiple reasons to that, you can't just blame the 10 tiers. 8 tiers would maybe fix the problem a bit, but that's just dodging the real problem imo.

 

Grats on that sub tho, I didn't know that, but you have to understand it's not just the same dimension as PSL, being a sub for team Asia or for PSL is 2 different worlds.

To be brutally honest, 8 tiers means 64 players and it's very hard for me to come up with more than 50 solid players in this game. So when you look at it from that way, 8 tiers is already giving a bit of a leeway to some of the more unrecognized players. But I think we've said everything that needs to be said, rest is up to the host. 

 

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46 minutes ago, DrButler said:

@NikhilR thx for taking the time, guess i got it wrong.

it's not exactly that you got it wrong, you just didnt take into consideration that what you said is very subjective. im sure there are players like that (actually i know there are), but there are also many players who think just like nik. the thing you were wrong with was implying that this was everyone's mindset 

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13 hours ago, NikhilR said:

Man I've played NU and I can tell you that NU is pretty much highly matchup reliant too. If you're running stall, you're gonna hope that your opponent doesn't have a particular wallbreaker that breaks your defensive cores. If you run an offensive team, you're gonna hope that your opponent doesn't have that one pokemon over which you just can't seem to form a defensive core around. Again man, you can't use RNG as an argument for a dedicated player not getting their win. It's frustrating no doubt, but a good player will always find ways to win with a bad matchup, something that an inexperienced player will not be able to do. And if I do lose to RNG, it's something that I do accept but it also forces me to rethink my ways on how I could've played the game differently and thus avoided such a scenario. So having an RNG filled tier in a way paves the way for a player to get better. You want PSL to be a place where a manger holds every player's hand and teach them about how to play the game and well that's not what some of the people want. If you're being bought, it's because people trust you to hold your own weight. This doesn't mean you won't get any help at all, but no way am I helping someone from scratch. 

 

Hax is always going to be there man, it's something that we can't control. What we can control is the way in which it can influence our game and that varies from player to player. See again, in the second paragraph, you want a dedicated experienced player to share all this knowledge etc. which is making that dedicated player do more work than he should. You definitely had a good PSL experience last season with players subbing in and out and a good team chemistry, well that doesn't happen for every team. 

 

I think I phrased what I meant to say incorrectly as well. What I mean is that 8 tiers means 8 players to play it, and then you can have 2 additional players as subs when you consider the 10 tier equivalent where you had 10 players but no subs. At this point we might have to agree to disagree if you feel that UU / NU are less RNG reliant than other tiers. 

 

I'd say success is mostly having a season with high winrate. Like Lkrenz, Sejuani, Miguelez etc. The best newcomer imo was Zigh last season because he got some important wins, put in the work and basically surprised all of us.

 

I don't play as many officials as you think I do, and no official takes 6 hrs at all. But I refuse to believe that there is a player who possesses great comp skills but cannot find the time to play an official. At least they can make a good run in an official or make a name on the leaderboard. There's so many ways to go about this. 

 

Spectating a match is not the same as playing it. I've been in that scenario and it's very easy to point out flaws / mistakes until you're in that person's shoes. Not choking comes a lot from experience and you get that by playing more matches. If not officials, then MM is the place to go. If there are new names that are a lot better than old players, then they WILL be bought. It's the unknown names being bought that I'm worried about. 

I mean, you can't just imagine picking someone that is bad, but I think there is more than enough good new names to put 10 tiers for this PSL. They aren't as experienced as you but they are nowhere near dumb or bad. It's not about holding hand, it's about helping with the teambuilds so they can actually play well with a good team. Hardest part about PokeMMO is teambuilding and this is why people are good while being new names, if you help them building better and train with them they might surprise you.

 

You don't realize how much the community has grown but I get your point, whatever, you won't change your mind before you see em playing. I don't agree with you, you can control the hax and play in consequence when you're experimented, that's the point in training with experienced players before having a spot in the line up, and not train with experienced players to dream about getting a spot one day during next PSL, that's just egoistic.

 

Ye I think like you can always have a backup plan in NU UU if team is solid and you know what possibilities you have.

 

Most of RÑG doesnt give a shit about either official or leaderboard or anything, yet everyone signed up for PSL, time to call us trash I guess.

 

Ye gotcha, I didn't quite write what I meant, just that playing casually to practice everyday in MM and spectating is key to learning the meta, the plays, the sets, everything.

 

12 hours ago, BlackJovi said:

Some people know they are bad and are worried if they will get bought or not hence why this thread

Tbh as long as there are 2xUU 2xNU idgaf about 10 tiers (would ruin the hype by suppressing other tiers tho) or not being picked, I'd be sad having to witness PSL being played on LC and Dubs, and having so few players involved in the event. Also I'd rather have more people playing and maybe it'll ruin my team's season if bad management than getting 2.5M. Big players gonna face eachother anyway, more matches = more hype and no spared tiers. 

 

12 hours ago, NikhilR said:

That's all the more reason why 8 tiers is more hyped. Because it's exclusive to just good players, all the battles will be between good players. That makes every match a good watch. People can work their way to the lineup as a sub, as I mentioned. If Axoa has to maybe fill in for another tier, someone else might have to take Axoa's spot. 

 

To be brutally honest, 8 tiers means 64 players and it's very hard for me to come up with more than 50 solid players in this game. So when you look at it from that way, 8 tiers is already giving a bit of a leeway to some of the more unrecognized players. But I think we've said everything that needs to be said, rest is up to the host. 

 

 

Fuck what you call good players lol, the hype is when an underdog shits on a pretended good player. Even with 10T, every PSL match will be a good match since teams are behind the build and the training, stop underestimating the community lmao. 50 solid MMO tiers players for 40 spots including doubles, don't you think there's a problem in that case ?

 

Yeah sure, still think something with like 9 tiers can be heavily benefiting PSL, let us have Small Council considering that.

 

Edited by Kamimiii
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1 minute ago, LuisPocho said:

I´m surprised that most people decided vote 8 or 10 based only if they wanted "bad players" be part or not in PSL...


I was totally sure it was about the importance in each match or about players that didnt play their matchs, etc

The second is the reason I had voted. The fewer the matches, the more important they are, and thus the less likelihood that we have activity decisions. At least, that's what I hope, but it could just be a straw man considering we had more activity decisions in the 8-tier PSL seasons than the 10. 

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25 minutes ago, Erayne said:

Before you keep discussing... @BurntZebra do you care about what the community wants and would you ever go back on your decision about PSL tiers?

I'm doing what I feel is best for PSL. For example, when you're a parent, you want your kids to eat their vegetables so they grow up to be big and strong, but the children might not want it. I'm the parent and you kids don't want to eat your delicious vegetables

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Just now, BurntZebra said:

I'm doing what I feel is best for PSL. For example, when you're a parent, you want your kids to eat their vegetables so they grow up to be big and strong, but the children might not want it. I'm the parent and you kids don't want to eat your delicious vegetables

give me my 10 tiers or bad

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7 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

I'm doing what I feel is best for PSL. For example, when you're a parent, you want your kids to eat their vegetables so they grow up to be big and strong, but the children might not want it. I'm the parent and you kids don't want to eat your delicious vegetables

Excluding new players does the opposite of forcing them to get stronger, giving them the opportunity to practice weekly, interact with experienced players, and learn from it all does. Trying to claim thay 8 tiers is the healthy option seems like a petty excuse for prolonging an outdated elitist attitude.

Edited by Havsha
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7 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

He is more interested in the league then a bunch of noobs.  It isnt thier job to teach you to get good.  But with 2 or 3? non pokemmo tiers out of 8 it seems to be catering to the retired/"semi retired" player community rather than the active comp community.

Alright counterargument, all the psl veterans continue the curren prescribed path and quit, psl will die, unless we start adding more "noobs" to the roster

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15 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

I'm doing what I feel is best for PSL. For example, when you're a parent, you want your kids to eat their vegetables so they grow up to be big and strong, but the children might not want it. I'm the parent and you kids don't want to eat your delicious vegetables

This analogy is bad and you should feel bad. The real question is whether 8 tiers or 10 tiers are the vegetables. You aren't the food pyramid mother fucker 

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19 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

I'm doing what I feel is best for PSL. For example, when you're a parent, you want your kids to eat their vegetables so they grow up to be big and strong, but the children might not want it. I'm the parent and you kids don't want to eat your delicious vegetables

I get your point and agree that sometimes a strictly democratic way to handle things isn't the best way, I just wanted to be sure this discussion wasn't pointless. (Still not sure)

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13 minutes ago, Havsha said:

Excluding new players does the opposite of forcing them to get stronger, giving them the opportunity to practice weekly, interact with experienced players, and learn from it all does. Trying to claim thay 8 tiers is the healthy option seems like a petty excuse for prolonging an outdated elitist attitude.

That's a little harsh don't you think?

 

While I honestly have little bias for either format, being so volatile about dropping the number of tiers by two seems a little inappropriate and as you said "petty". The best scenario, imo, would be to see OU, OU, UU, UU, NU, Dubs, DPP, S/M OU. There was a large amount of criticism of the competitiveness of OU3 and NU2 last season, and thus I can agree that both could and should be excluded. LC will most likely be removed because of the few sign ups and it currently being broken because of the multi-hit move ban.

 

In conclusion, 8 tiers seems just right and arguing for 10, while altruistic, is somewhat unnecessary. The season will be fine either way, but maybe more competitive with just 8 tiers. 

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4 minutes ago, Havsha said:

Excluding new players does the opposite of forcing them to get stronger, giving them the opportunity to practice weekly, interact with experienced players, and learn from it all does. Trying to claim thay 8 tiers is the healthy option seems like a petty excuse for prolonging an outdated elitist attitude.

If PSL is your only source of practice and competitive play, then you're going to have a hard time being a good comp player. 

 

Becoming a good comp player is a complex process. You must learn the basics of pokemon like typings/moves/IVs/EVs etc before you can go very far. For me, I then looked at a competitive pokemon guide on these forums back in 2013. It gave me a good idea of what people could run. I then looked to smogon for some of their sets for gen 3. One I remember in particular was reading about heracross. I thought heracross was the most powerful pokemon ever, since it could run endure+reversal and get its megahorn boosted by its swarm ability. Heracross ended up being the first comp I bred in the game. I filled in the rest of my team with other stuff I had seen before like ludicolo/snorlax/skarmory/gengar etc. When I first started battling, I didn't have much of the intuition on how to win games. Most of my wins were vs other noobs that didn't know how to handle endure+reversal heracross. But whenever I ran into someone running weezing or skarmory that could stop heracross, I usually lost unless the other person let one of those die.

 

I then began making more comps and dueling friends. I was still a total noob but I learned more about the game and teambuilding etc. Then I went onto play some officials, with moderate amount of success considering I was still relatively new (making it to round 3=moderate success for me). When breeding was updated in late 2013/early 2014, breeding became much easier and I started accumulating a lot of comps. I started making new sets that I hadn't seen other people use before, or I combined sets together that I had seen people use. I actually managed to win 2 tournaments around this time, since people weren't prepared for some of the sets/cores I ran, even though my plays/predicts may have not been the best still. 

 

PSL also came around this time, some time in spring 2014 ish. I managed to get picked as a player for 2.5k credits. I learned ADV OU before the player sign ups/auction so that I could be a valuable asset to PSL teams, even if I didn't have much official success at the time. I remember laddering on the ADV OU showdown ladder and posting my progress to the PSL general thread. I felt like I learned a lot through PSL about scouting / counter teaming etc, although I still needed certain skills to get picked for PSL in season 1, considering there were only 6 teams, and teams only had 6 tier lineups. 

 

As time went on, I practiced more and more playing in all the officials that went on, and honed my teambuilding and predicting skills.

 

I believe my story is similar to others who are the other "well-known" players in PokeMMO. We all had humble beginnings and practiced to get better, to perform on the stage that is PSL. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

If PSL is your only source of practice and competitive play, then you're going to have a hard time being a good comp player. 

 

Becoming a good comp player is a complex process. You must learn the basics of pokemon like typings/moves/IVs/EVs etc before you can go very far. For me, I then looked at a competitive pokemon guide on these forums back in 2013. It gave me a good idea of what people could run. I then looked to smogon for some of their sets for gen 3. One I remember in particular was reading about heracross. I thought heracross was the most powerful pokemon ever, since it could run endure+reversal and get its megahorn boosted by its swarm ability. Heracross ended up being the first comp I bred in the game. I filled in the rest of my team with other stuff I had seen before like ludicolo/snorlax/skarmory/gengar etc. When I first started battling, I didn't have much of the intuition on how to win games. Most of my wins were vs other noobs that didn't know how to handle endure+reversal heracross. But whenever I ran into someone running weezing or skarmory that could stop heracross, I usually lost unless the other person let one of those die.

 

I then began making more comps and dueling friends. I was still a total noob but I learned more about the game and teambuilding etc. Then I went onto play some officials, with moderate amount of success considering I was still relatively new (making it to round 3=moderate success for me). When breeding was updated in late 2013/early 2014, breeding became much easier and I started accumulating a lot of comps. I started making new sets that I hadn't seen other people use before, or I combined sets together that I had seen people use. I actually managed to win 2 tournaments around this time, since people weren't prepared for some of the sets/cores I ran, even though my plays/predicts may have not been the best still. 

 

PSL also came around this time, some time in spring 2014 ish. I managed to get picked as a player for 2.5k credits. I learned ADV OU before the player sign ups/auction so that I could be a valuable asset to PSL teams, even if I didn't have much official success at the time. I remember laddering on the ADV OU showdown ladder and posting my progress to the PSL general thread. I felt like I learned a lot through PSL about scouting / counter teaming etc, although I still needed certain skills to get picked for PSL in season 1, considering there were only 6 teams, and teams only had 6 tier lineups. 

 

As time went on, I practiced more and more playing in all the officials that went on, and honed my teambuilding and predicting skills.

 

I believe my story is similar to others who are the other "well-known" players in PokeMMO. We all had humble beginnings and practiced to get better, to perform on the stage that is PSL. 

 

 

I agree that psl should never be someone's only source of comp experience, that would be ridiculous, however, the opportunity to learn from all of the veterans of this game should not be underestimated, that's one of the great things about psl, youre teamed up with people who you may never speak to in game, its how the community strengthens. And im not suggesting that 10 tierd would suddenly add noobs the roster, there are a lot of new names that are slowly establishing themselves into the competitive scene, look at people like miguelez, having nu 2 created the opening he needed to get recognized. 

Also @DoubleJ yeah I didnt mean that to come out as harsh as it did, petty probably wasn't the right term, but nonetheless if the competitive players who traditionally play psl start to move away from this game, and we continue to stop giving those growing names an opportunity to improve and show their skill, then psl is really going to see more activety problems

 

E: sorry for the grammar, typing on my phone

Edited by Havsha
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