Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Kamimiii

PSL Season 8 - How many tiers ?

8 or 10 tiers ?  

63 members have voted

  1. 1. 8 or 10 tiers ?

    • 8
      30
    • 10
      33


Recommended Posts

I mean, I get @NikhilR really...he just doesn't want anyone's PSL fate to have to be decided by a mnemodsdvome or Linken match, he's just looking out for us in all honesty. 

Share this post


Link to post
36 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

I don't have much to say regarding the way the managers handled their credits.

But that is my main point :/ It is the real issue. If the psl administration can't pick decent managers, it needs to put in place more rules to prevent these managers from fucking up. Going back to 8 tiers is a cop out. Ya, it fixes the player quality problem, but there are better ways to fix it.

 

36 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

But I'm more interested in this bolded part. Why shouldn't an experienced player be considered better than someone who is new or hasn't made a name for himself? What's preventing this new player from showing himself to be more skillful than some of the experienced players?

What I meant in the bold part is that the community is growing. A parent should probably not give a 4 years old a sharp knife, so the child can help the parent cut vegetables. However, a parent could easily hand out a sharp knife to a teenager for help in the kitchen. The babyboomers of PokeMMO are no longer 4 years old because the competitive scene has grown over the years. We have more good players. I'm not saying old is better than new or new is better than old. I'm saying that you don't need to be a F1 driver to drive a regular car and you don't need to be a professional cook to handle a sharp knife.

Edited by gbwead

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, BlackJovi said:

I mean, I get @NikhilR really...he just doesn't want anyone's PSL fate to have to be decided by a mnemodsdvome or Linken match, he's just looking out for us in all honesty. 

Pipe had a lot of credits remaining at the end of midseason that he should have used if he truly wanted to replace linken or mnemo.

Edited by gbwead

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, gbwead said:

But that is my main point :/ It is the real issue. If the psl administration can't pick decent managers, it needs to put in place more rules to prevent these managers from fucking up. Going back to 8 tiers is a cop out. Ya, it fixes the player quality problem, but there are better ways to fix it.

 

What I meant in the bold part is that the community is growing. A parent should probably not give a 4 years old a sharp knife, so the child can help the parent cut vegetables. However, a parent could easily hand out a sharp knife to a teenager for help in the kitchen. The babyboomers of PokeMMO are no longer 4 years old because the competitive scene has grown over the years. We have more good players. I'm not saying old is better than new or new is better than old. I'm saying that you don't need to be a F1 driver to drive a regular car.

Sorry about not having much to say about that then man. But I think that every good player is going to cost a lot of money and if you spend it on the right player, it does your team wonders. 

 

Also with regards to that analogy, if the younger sibling is better equipped at using a knife than the older one, then I see no reason for the older one to be picked over the younger one. Another thing everyone seems to keep forgetting is that even though there are 8 tiers, all teams will need subs and you can prove yourself to be more than useful by being a sub and then working your way into the starting lineup. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

Sorry about not having much to say about that then man. But I think that every good player is going to cost a lot of money and if you spend it on the right player, it does your team wonders. 

 

Also with regards to that analogy, if the younger sibling is better equipped at using a knife than the older one, then I see no reason for the older one to be picked over the younger one. Another thing everyone seems to keep forgetting is that even though there are 8 tiers, all teams will need subs and you can prove yourself to be more than useful by being a sub and then working your way into the starting lineup. 

You can also have subs with 10 tiers. Personally, my week1 lineup was different from my playoffs lineup because I saw that some of my subs were simply better imo than my original players.

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, gbwead said:

You can also have subs with 10 tiers. Personally, my week1 lineup was different from my playoffs lineup because I saw that some of my subs were simply better imo than my original players.

It is possible to have subs with 10 tiers, but the quality of subs is sometimes so bad that it's almost equivalent to a bye. In this case, having 8 tiers would be like having one of the players, who would play the 9th or 10th tier, as a sub. I don't see that as much of a downfall tbh. 

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

...all teams will need subs and you can prove yourself to be more than useful by being a sub and then working your way into the starting lineup. 

thats actually what made me undoing my sign up. its like saying: "ur good enough to fill the bench, so we (more experienced players) are able to have that event, but we dont really wanna have you here and we dont want you to ruin our psl experience". i mean maybe im wrong, but this is my expression of what ive read in here and thats actually pretty sad.

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

drop LC almost no one signed up for that. Also perhaphs drop one of the "not pokemmo" tiers for something in game.  don't really care too much tbh but 16 ou players total seems a bit slim.

8 teams for 16 players its okaaay :3
 

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

drop LC almost no one signed up for that. Also perhaphs drop one of the "not pokemmo" tiers for something in game.  don't really care too much tbh but 16 ou players total seems a bit slim.

I like DPP as it kinda emulates PokeMMO for those who do not play it (anymore).

SM OU is pretty exciting, as it gives the competition a completely fresh format while being up to date with Smogon's gen 7 OU. It's probably going to be a mascot tier, like VGC, but at least the battles are singles, which means there are a lot better chances for playrs to know what they are doing,

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, DrButler said:

thats actually what made me undoing my sign up. its like saying: "ur good enough to fill the bench, so we (more experienced players) are able to have that event, but we dont really wanna have you here and we dont want you to ruin our psl experience". i mean maybe im wrong, but this is my expression of what ive read in here and thats actually pretty sad.

The bolded part is true, there are going to be better players to take your place. The italics part is untrue, because just by being in the bench doesn't mean you cannot contribute in any way at all. Every team needs subs / testing partners / scouting / advice / playing at last minute - that's what a sub can offer. I can assure you that no one will ever look down on you for being on the bench because being bought should itself be something to be proud about. It's definitely a hard thing to transition to especially when you've had the expectation of starting when it was considered to be 10 tiers, but that doesn't mean you look at yourself as an inferior player. I know this because I'm speaking from firsthand experience, so you can take my word for it. It's time for some self praise so here are some of the shout outs I got as a sub from my SPL teammates:

 



 

Major Bowman

486a1fbc60.JPG

 

Miltankmilk

7906f75b45.JPG

P2

817f9a1674.JPG

 

Tennisace

ed748847fa.JPG

 

The best for the last, my DPP "mentor" tamahome

f1ba5ede42.JPG

 

 

I'm probably still a sub for Team Asia in WCOP but this time I had to fight my way into the team because there were tryouts. When you earn that slot it's a much more satisfying feeling. No player ever has to look down at themselves for being sub, instead look up to the fact that you got bought as that itself is something that gives you a distinctive quality.

Share this post


Link to post

 

To JJ : Having 2 of OU UU and NU is legit the only purpose behind my fight for the 10 tiers, I guess you can also delete LC and DPP but that'd be 2 fun tiers gone (also DPP > SuMo), might however be a hype killer in the end.

 

Just now, NikhilR said:

This right here is just opinion and not even a fact lol. To even out the RNG in dubs, it's made bo3, also lol where did I admit that those are nonsense? I said what's nonsense is being FORCED to buy an inexperienced player just to fill a slot in the team and who will then just cancel out an important win earned by a dedicated player. How are those two even same?

What about the RNG in LC then ? It's legit 90% matchup. // It's not like bo3 was making things that much better, still one hell of a RNG tier but alright, I'll give you that one, didn't ask to throw away Dubs anyway. What you call inexperienced are players that play since more than 6 months (big minimum here), that completly understand how PvP works and just not have the right teambuilds for the tiers. Manager's, captain's, and team's role is to help those players training at best and teambuilding with them during the whole PSL. Again, you won't pick dumb guys, people that are willing to work hard will show like they did every season before that one, and differencing dumb ones from hard workers is team effort and manager role, once the 4th player line reached during auction, your team can start suggesting not so common names for 2k that will do just as good as 10k players. Cancel important win earned by dedicated player ? Dude if your dedicated player got shit on by RNG, you'll be more than happy to have a trained competitive noname with a perfect teambuild that'd play his game as good as he can and actually cancel the important lose earned by ... 

 

My point is : You go 8 tiers > You have overall (better) more experienced player in percentage, thus you have less chances for them to fuck around playing it carelessly, BUT you have more chances to lose a weak on a single HAX.

Following my logic, if you go 10 tiers with a clever manager, that picked dedicated experienced player to share their knowledge, aswell as hardworkers that are willing to train whole week and accept building advices, you end the season with 2k players doing just as good as top tier players, meaning team quality is maybe just a little lower as if 8 tiers, but you have less chances to get fucked by RNG as anyone will be able to back up anyone's else loss. I've had a hardworking team last season, with dedicated manager and experienced players, it never felt like someone was holding the team back, even benched people were helping 24/7, imo it's up to the manager to pick the right people and motivate them, but it's again just my personnal experience so I respect what you said, as I imagine having dumb asses players might be tough to handle ( > manager should have picked better).

 

Just now, NikhilR said:

How the hell can a manger bench a player when they don't have credits to buy more players?!?!?!? If we have 8 tiers, a manger can buy 10 players (same like last season) and have 2 subs whereas if you compare last season's case where a manager has only 10 players, they don't have the luxury to then bench the uninterested player. Again please tell me what are these RNG based tiers. I could then argue that every pokemon tier is RNG based because of how some games can simply be won in terms of matchup. What are these new competitive tiers that would be added? 

By not overpaying like monkeys and managing team's finances better, but again I get the point when you sometimes need to cash out for something good, you should just know when to stop. By the way I think you forgot something when you wrote the bolded sentence, it's not like you were having another tier by adding UU and NU, thus you don't need a substitute for this tier in particular, you need 1 substitute for either OU UU NU, cause if there's a flex veteran that can OU UU NU and fill your roster, only one substitute for one of those tiers is needed (if you don't get my point, tell me, I'll paint something to explain it better, I'm struggling with english right now haha).

 

Every tier is RNG based indeed, but you can't deny some are more lol (OU -based on tanking 2HKOs or OHKOs-, LC -90% matchup 10% RNG-, Doubles -RNG again, but a bit negated by Bo3-). To fix that overall RNG problem, we need more tiers (if poss the less RNG based ones, aka UU and NU) to have more chances to even a loss mathematically, with nice preparation and skill.

 

I don't agree with you about the matchups in UU and NU, tiers are stable and you can build pretty solid teams, if you get a really bad matchup to the point it is unwinnable, it is most likely your and your team's fault for not teambuilding well enough.

 

Just now, NikhilR said:

Give me names of five players who have had success in PSL but not done well in officials at all. What is the difference between playing in PSL and in an official? If anything, playing an official is some of the best practice you can get to become a better player. If the players have to sit on the bench behind Axoa or enchanteur, who are currently some of the best players in the game, then they better sit on the bench because they haven't done anything to consider themselves to be better than those two. No I'm not scared about managers finding unknowns to work with them and get better, I'm just scared about PSL matches being decided by chokes the most between the two.

 

Lol okay. 

What do you call success, because from what I've seen of your point of view, success is not throwing dedicated players wins. In that case, there are a quite a few that pulled out clutch wins when needed, and did good overall.

 

For you, there isn't, you're part of the players that are tryharding the game, and I respect that, and I admire you for that, and I wish I could be as motivated as you to play 6 hours tournaments everytime there's one against players going straight 6 walls & chill. I value the fun over the shiny gifts, however I don't when it's PSL, because of the competitive spirit, the hype, the trashtalk, and the quintessence of skills and devotion required. 

 

Bolded sentence, spectating it is just as good if not better (when you know the team one of the players uses, so you can think on your own). The point is agreeing on letting ONLY monsters like Axoa and enchanteur play, when you got a whole new competitive community ready to improve by their side and show that they are good too.

 

Mh okay, indeed new players tend to choke a little bit more, but that's just a result of not being prepared enough, and well it seems like good players choke too (last TT, sry PBC I needed that example). I understand your reluctance, but I don't think PSL should be an exclusive event, otherwise the competitive MMO scene will never evolve, and also because they are new names that are a lot better than old players not practicing anymore and tired.

 

 

Perhaps you'd agree on 9 then ? Doesn't it seem reasonnable to you ?

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, DrButler said:

@NikhilR thx for taking the time, guess i got it wrong.

Yea, it's not at all that we want to exclude anyone. We as players and managers feel more comfortable being reliant on proven players. Whether they're new or old, it doesn't matter. But if you haven't won officials, repped your team in tt's, or done your time supporting a psl team in the past as a sub, then it's hard to pick a player like that. 

 

Getting drafted or purchased in the auction is an amazing accomplishment. It means you're recognised and valuable. Whether it's 8 tiers or 10, players will be left out. Rather than worrying about not getting picked, find ways to prove your worth. 

 

And in the end, 8 tier psl was a success for 5 seasons until I showed up and hosted the 10 tier format which was met with scrutiny by many. I'm not opposed to either system, but it will be refreshing to see how 8 looks once more. 

Share this post


Link to post

I had brought up the idea of switching depending on the number of sign ups. Basically what I said was if we hit 120 I'd want to switch to ten tiers because let's assume 8 players + 2 subs per team as an average, that makes 80 players. At 120 sign ups that's a third of the people being left out. Adding two more tiers brings us up to 96 players signed and then only a fifth of the players get left out. 

 

I like the idea of the event being kind of exclusive where you're never forced to get someone who is just straight shit to fill a tier, but I don't think the bottom 33% is that level of shit.

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Another thing everyone seems to keep forgetting is that even though there are 8 tiers, all teams will need subs and you can prove yourself to be more than useful by being a sub and then working your way into the starting lineup. 

Do you understand that in the 8 tiers case the whole lineup will be fucking monsters, sure you can help and work your way into the lineup, but that shouldnt be how it works in MMO, you can give 2 more places, which means MAYBE a squishier line up but at least people actually have a real chance to join the lineup if they work hard for it, won't happen with Axoa as only UU player for the team.

 

3 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

The bolded part is true, there are going to be better players to take your place. The italics part is untrue, because just by being in the bench doesn't mean you cannot contribute in any way at all. Every team needs subs / testing partners / scouting / advice / playing at last minute - that's what a sub can offer. I can assure you that no one will ever look down on you for being on the bench because being bought should itself be something to be proud about. It's definitely a hard thing to transition to especially when you've had the expectation of starting when it was considered to be 10 tiers, but that doesn't mean you look at yourself as an inferior player. I know this because I'm speaking from firsthand experience, so you can take my word for it. It's time for some self praise so here are some of the shout outs I got as a sub from my SPL teammates:

 

I'm probably still a sub for Team Asia in WCOP but this time I had to fight my way into the team because there were tryouts. When you earn that slot it's a much more satisfying feeling. No player ever has to look down at themselves for being sub, instead look up to the fact that you got bought as that itself is something that gives you a distinctive quality.

Not in the case of 10 tiers, if you work hard enough you get your chance to play. It's like having to count on the few few few new names when u chose 8 tiers, but instead, you maybe gonna count on 3 of them, which, if your manager picks well enough, is totally acceptable.

 

It seems like you're being individual this time Nik, I think you should just trust your manager, you and your team, even if you're good it's a team game, and when a team member loses, it's the fault of the whole team. However I get this is hard when the last PSL didn't just work for you as a team, but well there are multiple reasons to that, you can't just blame the 10 tiers. 8 tiers would maybe fix the problem a bit, but that's just dodging the real problem imo.

 

Grats on that sub tho, I didn't know that, but you have to understand it's not just the same dimension as PSL, being a sub for team Asia or for PSL is 2 different worlds.

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, Kamimiii said:

What about the RNG in LC then ? It's legit 90% matchup. // It's not like bo3 was making things that much better, still one hell of a RNG tier but alright, I'll give you that one, didn't ask to throw away Dubs anyway. What you call inexperienced are players that play since more than 6 months (big minimum here), that completly understand how PvP works and just not have the right teambuilds for the tiers. Manager's, captain's, and team's role is to help those players training at best and teambuilding with them during the whole PSL. Again, you won't pick dumb guys, people that are willing to work hard will show like they did every season before that one, and differencing dumb ones from hard workers is team effort and manager role, once the 4th player line reached during auction, your team can start suggesting not so common names for 2k that will do just as good as 10k players. Cancel important win earned by dedicated player ? Dude if your dedicated player got shit on by RNG, you'll be more than happy to have a trained competitive noname with a perfect teambuild that'd play his game as good as he can and actually cancel the important lose earned by ... 

 

My point is : You go 8 tiers > You have overall (better) more experienced player in percentage, thus you have less chances for them to fuck around playing it carelessly, BUT you have more chances to lose a weak on a single HAX.

Following my logic, if you go 10 tiers with a clever manager, that picked dedicated experienced player to share their knowledge, aswell as hardworkers that are willing to train whole week and accept building advices, you end the season with 2k players doing just as good as top tier players, meaning team quality is maybe just a little lower as if 8 tiers, but you have less chances to get fucked by RNG as anyone will be able to back up anyone's else loss. I've had a hardworking team last season, with dedicated manager and experienced players, it never felt like someone was holding the team back, even benched people were helping 24/7, imo it's up to the manager to pick the right people and motivate them, but it's again just my personnal experience so I respect what you said, as I imagine having dumb asses players might be tough to handle ( > manager should have picked better).

Man I've played NU and I can tell you that NU is pretty much highly matchup reliant too. If you're running stall, you're gonna hope that your opponent doesn't have a particular wallbreaker that breaks your defensive cores. If you run an offensive team, you're gonna hope that your opponent doesn't have that one pokemon over which you just can't seem to form a defensive core around. Again man, you can't use RNG as an argument for a dedicated player not getting their win. It's frustrating no doubt, but a good player will always find ways to win with a bad matchup, something that an inexperienced player will not be able to do. And if I do lose to RNG, it's something that I do accept but it also forces me to rethink my ways on how I could've played the game differently and thus avoided such a scenario. So having an RNG filled tier in a way paves the way for a player to get better. You want PSL to be a place where a manger holds every player's hand and teach them about how to play the game and well that's not what some of the people want. If you're being bought, it's because people trust you to hold your own weight. This doesn't mean you won't get any help at all, but no way am I helping someone from scratch. 

 

Hax is always going to be there man, it's something that we can't control. What we can control is the way in which it can influence our game and that varies from player to player. See again, in the second paragraph, you want a dedicated experienced player to share all this knowledge etc. which is making that dedicated player do more work than he should. You definitely had a good PSL experience last season with players subbing in and out and a good team chemistry, well that doesn't happen for every team. 

 

11 minutes ago, Kamimiii said:

By not overpaying like monkeys and managing team's finances better, but again I get the point when you sometimes need to cash out for something good, you should just know when to stop. By the way I think you forgot something when you wrote the bolded sentence, it's not like you were having another tier by adding UU and NU, thus you don't need a substitute for this tier in particular, you need 1 substitute for either OU UU NU, cause if there's a flex veteran that can OU UU NU and fill your roster, only one substitute for one of those tiers is needed (if you don't get my point, tell me, I'll paint something to explain it better, I'm struggling with english right now haha).

 

Every tier is RNG based indeed, but you can't deny some are more lol (OU -based on tanking 2HKOs or OHKOs-, LC -90% matchup 10% RNG-, Doubles -RNG again, but a bit negated by Bo3-). To fix that overall RNG problem, we need more tiers (if poss the less RNG based ones, aka UU and NU) to have more chances to even a loss mathematically, with nice preparation and skill.

 

I don't agree with you about the matchups in UU and NU, tiers are stable and you can build pretty solid teams, if you get a really bad matchup to the point it is unwinnable, it is most likely your and your team's fault for not teambuilding well enough.

I think I phrased what I meant to say incorrectly as well. What I mean is that 8 tiers means 8 players to play it, and then you can have 2 additional players as subs when you consider the 10 tier equivalent where you had 10 players but no subs. At this point we might have to agree to disagree if you feel that UU / NU are less RNG reliant than other tiers. 

 

22 minutes ago, Kamimiii said:

What do you call success, because from what I've seen of your point of view, success is not throwing dedicated players wins. In that case, there are a quite a few that pulled out clutch wins when needed, and did good overall.

 

For you, there isn't, you're part of the players that are tryharding the game, and I respect that, and I admire you for that, and I wish I could be as motivated as you to play 6 hours tournaments everytime there's one against players going straight 6 walls & chill. I value the fun over the shiny gifts, however I don't when it's PSL, because of the competitive spirit, the hype, the trashtalk, and the quintessence of skills and devotion required. 

 

Bolded sentence, spectating it is just as good if not better (when you know the team one of the players uses, so you can think on your own). The point is agreeing on letting ONLY monsters like Axoa and enchanteur play, when you got a whole new competitive community ready to improve by their side and show that they are good too.

 

Mh okay, indeed new players tend to choke a little bit more, but that's just a result of not being prepared enough, and well it seems like good players choke too (last TT, sry PBC I needed that example). I understand your reluctance, but I don't think PSL should be an exclusive event, otherwise the competitive MMO scene will never evolve, and also because they are new names that are a lot better than old players not practicing anymore and tired.

 

 

Perhaps you'd agree on 9 then ? Doesn't it seem reasonnable to you ?

 

I'd say success is mostly having a season with high winrate. Like Lkrenz, Sejuani, Miguelez etc. The best newcomer imo was Zigh last season because he got some important wins, put in the work and basically surprised all of us.

 

I don't play as many officials as you think I do, and no official takes 6 hrs at all. But I refuse to believe that there is a player who possesses great comp skills but cannot find the time to play an official. At least they can make a good run in an official or make a name on the leaderboard. There's so many ways to go about this. 

 

Spectating a match is not the same as playing it. I've been in that scenario and it's very easy to point out flaws / mistakes until you're in that person's shoes. Not choking comes a lot from experience and you get that by playing more matches. If not officials, then MM is the place to go. If there are new names that are a lot better than old players, then they WILL be bought. It's the unknown names being bought that I'm worried about. 

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.